Thread: Ok, trying this again -- refining my theory on NON-SPIRITUAL, NON-RELIGIOUS reINCARNATION

so

what you are saying is that basically when you die that you become somebody else but you have no memories of before

so the you of the thoughts and memories is gone but the awareness remains, like wiping off a whiteboard.

If you write racist slogans on the whiteboard as opposed to ponies it is a completely different whiteboard but its fundamental nature cannot change

i think this is what is being said

Welll... you mostly got it... (but I'm not sure I appreciate the whole racist slogans thing... how did THAT get in here??!! )

Only one thing.... you said "The awareness remains"... that's not quite what I mean. The awareness dies when you die. But sometime after it does, thousands of completely new awarenesses are born. Each of them is SOMEBODY... who can say one of them won't feel like YOU?

Does it make any sense?

The awareness doesn't REMAIN... more like it reforms completely in a new body... with a new personality etc.

Whew, this is so hard to explain!!

So... It's like, you're reborn!
You just can't remember, feel, see, know, or do anything about you past life?
I rather have Jeezus

I'd really prefer this not turn into a religious debate. Note which forum it's posted under.

So in other words, you believe there is a finite sett of "consciousness"-es, and that everytime a person die, a new consciousness with their fundamental personality is developed. Is that it?
If so, I have some questions. Why would this happen? Is there any reason to think that all "consciousness"-es are connected? Why should a new brain need to be connected to something older (which is must be, even if no "spirit" is transfered)?
Also, does this mean there's a finite set of "consciousness"-es, so that only a (maximum) number of conscious beings can exist at the same time?

Ahh cool... thanks for the chance to further explain my thoughts...

First, I wouldn't call any of this a "belief"... I'm just trying to work out some ideas that are currently pretty fuzzy in my head, but definitely taking shape.

This idea doesn't call for a finite amount of consciousnesses, nor are they connected in any way.

Let me try this another way...


You're born, you grow up, you eventually die. Fade to black. Complete and utter non-existence... just as we atheists believe. Later another person is born. Well actually many many other people are born. Note Im not saying your soul or personality are somehow transferred into one of them... no. But that just from random chance, "YOU" will be one of them. Or should I say one of them will be you? Not in any way the same you... this is the hard part to explain. I suspect not many people will understand it. And I'm afraid I still don't know how to express it any better.

But I really do appreciate your effort to understand. I see no reason why new consciousnesses can't form all the time. Heck, that must happen, since there are more people now than ever before!! Unless something even weirder is happening, like somehow all consciousnesses are actually facets of one.. but then that's getting into completely different territory!! And I don't want to go there.

Somehow this entire idea hinges on exactly how we define a consciousness, and just how it comes into being. What is it that makes "me" be the one inside my body, and you be inside of yours? Why wasn't it the other way around?

Ok... head hurting...

I suspect this is a problem Ill be working on for a long time.. gradually increasing my understanding of it. I hope somebody in here can help with that.

Ok well, it's time for me to hit the hay.

I'll sleep on it and check back in here later tonight.

this just confuses me. If it's not my awareness then it's not me!


I'd rather talk about the Field!!

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

reincarnation

I wrote something about this recently, but it was confused and not well worded. I've thought about it some more, and heres version 2.0:

Let me stress again, there is NOTHING religious or spiritual about this, and it DOES NOT mean any part of you goes on or lives again... you absolutely DO NOT carry any memories through etc....

All it is, is this...

When you die, of course your consciousness dies, as it's a function of the living brain. But, we know so little about consciousness itself... who's to say this can't happen? Keep in mind I'm a very skeptical person, don't believe in anything magical or superstitious etc... mostly just science. But to me this sounds feasible.

Here it is... after you die (and I'm not saying I have any idea whatsoever how long after... could be immediately on death or days or maybe years later, who knows?) a NEW CONSCIOUSNESS forms somewhere in a womb (hundreds are formed every day if not thousands). YOU develop in this consciousness. Ahhh... see, this is the part I have so much trouble expressing!!! It's not like your personality or memories "carry on" (whatever that means)... it's not really the same you... it's just a completely new consciousness that becomes YOU. A completely NEW you.

Crap, that's the best I can do for now.


Does anybody understand what I'm trying so futilely to say? With so many little embryonic personalities forming every day, why wouldn't one of them be another you? Why couldn't it? (These are completely rhetorical questions by the way).

Anyway, this is still a new idea for me. Does anybody know if it's been discussed before (here or elsewhere)? I'm sure I'm not the first to think of it. I really wish I could figure out how to express it better!!!


***EDIT***

Ok, after a little more thought, here's a somewhat better explanation of what I mean when I say YOU (and tha'ts the problemmatic part here):

It's not your personality or your identity... not your memory.... its much more basic than that. It's quite simply that fragment of awareness that lives in your brain... that looks out through your eyes and hears through your ears.

Think about how this awareness comes into being in the first place... it's the result of electrical energy flowing through neurons in your nervous system and brain. It forms in the developing embryo and grows toward full awareness as the body develops. The personality is more of a graft-on....

This ethereal awareness... what you call ME I suppose... comes into being and gradually becomes more fully formed, and it dies when the body dies. There are literally billions of these awarenesses housed in bodies all over the world. More come into being all the time, and they're dying all the time too. Why did this one in particular become YOU? Why not me or somebody else entirely?

Ok, Im at my limit again. No idea how to express it better than this. I suspect if I ever DO figure that out, Ill have a much better understanding of exactly what consciousness is.

That is pretty much how i feel can be possible. No magic, or religion, or whatever involved. If it happens, it's because it's how the universe works. It can be a day, a year, 100 years, 1 million years but it will all be in the blink of an eye because when you do not exists, time does not exist so there is no slow movement of time. Just here, and now. You are not "you", you are someone else expieriencing life with their own consciousness. Life happens everyday, i don't get why there can't be another consciousness born when there is 1 everyday.

Originally Posted by juroara

this just confuses me. If it's not my awareness then it's not me!


I'd rather talk about the Field!!

It's just another consciousness experiencing life. It's not the "you" you know right now, it's someone else. But this new consciousness can only exist after you are gone. It's not "you you", but "you" in a different consciousness with nothing similar to the you as of now. Atleast this is what i think of the idea, and i guess it's about the same thing the guy is talking about. It's complicated to talk about, because how hard it is trying to understand something like this.

In other words..the energy of my consciousness is needed to create another consciousness using the same energy??

I hate to say this but, from the pretty good amount of study that I've done into buddhism, this is one of the stronger interpretations I've come to of the buddhist concept of reincarnation.

Patterns exist. You are one particular pattern. The forces that brought that particular pattern into existence are themselves patterns that reoccur through out existence. The specific pattern that is you reemerges countless times through out history. There doesn't need to be any continuity between these patterns any more than their needs to be continuity between two identical roles of dice.

Originally Posted by juroara

In other words..the energy of my consciousness is needed to create another consciousness using the same energy??

Call it what you want, but you can't exist if you're already existing in what you say "energy", or whatever it is is called. Unless of course an alternate reality does infact exist like i believe some scientists are starting to believe.

By George, I think you've got it!!!

Xaqaria and LucidFlanders, you seem to understand exactly what I mean. Think about it like this juroara - you exist right now. Why now? Why didn't you exist a thousand years ago, and whoops... there goes your one shot at life! Or a hundred years in the future... why is it that of all the times you could exist it happens to be right now? OR.... what if you DID exist a thousand years ago, and you will exist again in a hundred years... through entirely different people... completely unrelated in any way, except for the subjective fact that you're inside that body.

All other ideas about reincarnation or an afterlife rely on some kind of magic or energy that exists when the body dies.... though probably because that's an easier way to visualize "living on" after the body dies.

Xaqaria, that pattern analogy is very good. Puts it into words better than I have yet. And you know.... the more I hear about Tibetan buddhism, the more I like it. It seems very down to earth. IN fact, I recently found something about it online that said any time there are scientific findings that contradict any of their beliefs they get together and think about it and find a way to adjust the beliefs so they reflect the new level of human understanding of the universe and nature. Spiritual belief that keeps itself informed of scientific findings!!! What a novel concept!! That's the single biggest problem with most religions, the fact that they jealously guard their dogma against all human progress. The dogma, and hence the religion, becomes fossilized and soon fails utterly to have anything to do with reality as we currently understand it. That's putting the cart in front of the horse!!

Man, it feels good to know other people understand this idea the same way I do! And don't feel bad that it's an already existing belief system... I wasn't hoping to claim I invented the idea or anything, I was actually hoping it already existed so smarter people than me would have pondered it and written stuff down about it.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

I hate to say this but, from the pretty good amount of study that I've done into buddhism, this is one of the stronger interpretations I've come to of the buddhist concept of reincarnation.

Patterns exist. You are one particular pattern. The forces that brought that particular pattern into existence are themselves patterns that reoccur through out existence. The specific pattern that is you reemerges countless times through out history. There doesn't need to be any continuity between these patterns any more than their needs to be continuity between two identical roles of dice.

Darkmatters, I'm responding to you here, as well. While I agree to some extent with Xaq's summation, you're both minimizing the role of continuity a bit too much, needlessly IMO. "A consciousness" is not in fact a discrete unit, bound by birth and death and consistent within those bounds. When we think of ourselves as one life or one consciousness, it's really an approximation of many continuities, some on the scale of several generations, or of hominid history, or the time since the first twist of energy into mass in this cycle (just for some examples), while others barely bridge the span of three thoughts, or are limited to childhood or adolescence, or the span of one life. In the passing of human generations, various continuities on various scales do exhibit affinity and repulsion for one another, and if certain long continuities persist unchanged, they WILL exhibit some of the shorter continuities over and over again.

In this sense, much of what you are will persist unbroken into future incarnations, and the extent to which you get your constituent continuities to jam or harmonize will affect the plight of future "yous."

Thanks Taosaur, I appreciate the thoughtful response. It sounds like you're talking about more traditional reincarnation, with a little Karma thrown in. This is the kind of stuff that doesn't sit right with an atheist/skeptic like me. It implies that some part of you lives on after the body dies. What I'm talking about is a completely rational idea that doesn't require any kind of magic or spirit.. it's completely in agreement with the scientific ideas that a mind can't exist at all without a physical body to produce it... the same way light from a light bulb can't exist once the current is turned off. Sure, there's naturally occurring light, but not that particular light produced by that bulb.

It also sounds like you're talking about people living again and meeting each time, like for instance Cleopatra and Mark Antony being reincarnated over and over and always finding each other/ re-enacting their love through various lifetimes. It's a great idea, but again it requires a belief in some part that lives on when you die. That just goes against all scientific rationality.

so at the basic level...you mean just a new human exhibiting the same characteristics of what made you you. Like how some people are very similar and may even call them "twins"(though they arnt related) but these two people still have differences in their personalities however small, but this new being in your idea will not have any differences. They will be just like you.

No, there doesn't need to be any physical similarities at all, or any kind of similarities. Those are very superficial similarities. It's a completely different person, totally different personality... the only thing linking them is that "you" dwell inside the body and look out through the eyes.

Let me try a different way... because the part that's so hard to grasp is this concept of what awareness really is. This is something I've only thought about in this way since reading ETWOLD and finding this site.

Ok... let's say you're standing in a crowd of people. There are hundreds there... but only one of them is YOU. What is it that defines which one is you? You have access to your own thoughts in an immediate, personal way. You're inside this one body, looking out at all the others, and to you they're all only bodies... you have no access to their thoughts unless you talk to them, and then you have to think about what they say and try to understand it... hope they're not lying to you, translate due to different cultural ideas etc. So, you experience everybody else in the crowd OBJECTIVELY... from the outside. but you experience yourself SUBJECTIVELY... from the INSIDE. That's all I'm talking about... some time after your death your AWARENESS could live again, inside a completely different person.

It could be animals too... why not?

It's obvious that you are trying to fit the concept into a world that is only physical.

What you describe is not possible in that paradigm of thought, the rule-set of this physical reality does not allow for what you describe.

Even so more when your understanding of what consciousness is, consciousness is not a random configuration of matter that constitutes a specific awareness. That specific awareness is not dependent on physical matter to exist.

What kind of mechanism is there to transfer non-awareness into awareness that is purely physical? You must explain that first.

I don't know why you are trying to explain a non-physical concept with something physical. It is more logical to explain it in non-physical terms and then evaluate the reason in it.

You will be able to evolve your theory if you don't confine yourself to physicality.

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

It's obvious that you are trying to fit the concept into a world that is only physical.

Well, I wouldn't say the world is "only" physical... but I think I understand what you mean. You mean I'm describing a world with no gods, no magic, and no spirits in it. If that's what you mean, then you're absolutely correct.

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

What you describe is not possible in that paradigm of thought, the rule-set of this physical reality does not allow for what you describe.

How so? I see absolutely no reason why it wouldn't. The only things that are NOT allowed in a 'physical' world would be spirits, gods, and magic (which incidentally are REQUIRED in all other concepts of reincarnation I've ever heard of). The idea I'm talking about is completely secular and compatible with an atheist view.

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

Even so more when your understanding of what consciousness is, consciousness is not a random configuration of matter that constitutes a specific awareness. That specific awareness is not dependent on physical matter to exist.

Ok, now you lost me completely. How does consciousness exist without a physical body? Are you talking about spirit? As in disembodied ghosts? Sorry, but I don't believe in that. According to science you cannot have consciousness without a brain.

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

What kind of mechanism is there to transfer non-awareness into awareness that is purely physical? You must explain that first.

I don't understand the question. Wait... do you mean how does awareness or consciousness come into being when a person is born? Well... I'm not a scientist, and I really don't know. But then I doubt ANYBODY knows that. I'd say that's one of the deepest mysteries. All we can say about it for a fact is that it happens. But it isn't necessary to this theory to explain how it happens, only that it does.

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

I don't know why you are trying to explain a non-physical concept with something physical. It is more logical to explain it in non-physical terms and then evaluate the reason in it.

You will be able to evolve your theory if you don't confine yourself to physicality.

But this theory is entirely about scientific realities. Non-physical terms don't apply. True, consciousness itself is NOT physical, but it is dependent upon a physical brain, which depends on a body.

See, it's not that I'm "trying" to come up with some way that an atheist can believe in reincarnation... not at all. It's more that, as I now understand consciousness (or more properly awareness), it suddenly occurred to me that there's absolutely no reason an awareness can't be reborn into a completely new body. Even that is a bit of a misrepresentation of the idea really... it's just so hard to talk about because we don't have a good way to express "your consciousness". It's not your memories or your personality... these are superficial layers on top of awareness. If you strip them away completely then you're left with pretty much what Im discussing.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

How so? I see absolutely no reason why it wouldn't. The only things that are NOT allowed in a 'physical' world would be spirits, gods, and magic (which incidentally are REQUIRED in all other concepts of reincarnation I've ever heard of). The idea I'm talking about is completely secular and compatible with an atheist view.

Well, your idea is essential not so far away from "spirits" and such, you ascribe something non-physical to consciousness, which is correct. The error is in believing that the physical matter is the fundamental part of reality. Consciousness is fundamental, everything else is virtual.

For you concept to be completely compatible with an atheists view, you need to describe what consciousness is, how it arises, in why it is subjective in purely physical terms.

From most atheist views (see: materialism) consciousness is purely something physical, something that is created by the brain, your brain is your consciousness so to say. Then saying one can regain awareness when the brain is gone wouldn't make sense in that particular belief system.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Ok, now you lost me completely. How does consciousness exist without a physical body? Are you talking about spirit? As in disembodied ghosts? Sorry, but I don't believe in that. According to science you cannot have consciousness without a brain.

Consciousness is fundamental, consciousness exist independent on the physical body. Your physical body and brain is virtual. Your brain is a virtual representation of your consciousness, it is a way for consciousness to interface with a physical reality, that facilitates evolution and growth.

Your intent modifies your brain, your brain does not modify intent. Your mind leads, and the body follows.

You cannot interface the way you do right now with this reality frame without a brain, but you are consciousness, you are not your brain.

Your awareness would simply shift data stream, from your physical senses to something else.

What you call science are walking in the dark, if you believe they says that. Consciousness is personal and subjective, one cannot measure it objectively.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

I don't understand the question. Wait... do you mean how does awareness or consciousness come into being when a person is born? Well... I'm not a scientist, and I really don't know. But then I doubt ANYBODY knows that. I'd say that's one of the deepest mysteries. All we can say about it for a fact is that it happens. But it isn't necessary to this theory to explain how it happens, only that it does.

When a person is born the consciousness in question haves another "experience packet", it changes the data stream from another reality frame to this one, we call the universe.

When a person is born a new consciousness is not created, just the virtual body and brain is. The personality may be different, if that is more profitable for the growth of that being. The brain is a local restriction on the consciousness, it is a filter in the form of our senses.

Brain damage represent a temporary change in the expression of the consciousness into physical matter reality.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

But this theory is entirely about scientific realities. Non-physical terms don't apply. True, consciousness itself is NOT physical, but it is dependent upon a physical brain, which depends on a body.

Aha, you are right that consciousness is not physical but are still contradicting yourself when you says your theory is entirely about "scientific realities" where non-physical terms don't apply.

Consciousness is only dependent on the physical brain and body for being able to express itself here. In actuality the physical brain and body, and universe is dependent on consciousness to exist. It is virtual, it is a derivative of consciousness.

If you would like, there is a scientific theory of everything that explains everything, that combines physics, metaphysics and philosophy with logic and reason.

It explains the concept of what we call reincarnation elegantly, in a way that makes logical sense. Tell me if you are interested in that.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

See, it's not that I'm "trying" to come up with some way that an atheist can believe in reincarnation... not at all. It's more that, as I now understand consciousness (or more properly awareness), it suddenly occurred to me that there's absolutely no reason an awareness can't be reborn into a completely new body. Even that is a bit of a misrepresentation of the idea really... it's just so hard to talk about because we don't have a good way to express "your consciousness". It's not your memories or your personality... these are superficial layers on top of awareness. If you strip them away completely then you're left with pretty much what Im discussing.

You are right, but you still have conflicting beliefs.

There is absolutely no reason that an awareness can't be "reborn" into a completely new body.

But if you have gone so far in realizing that, why can you not realize that there is absolutely no reason for this is not a non-physical process?

If you want all the dots to connect, you do need that realization. Without that, it will only be a very little part of the big picture.

I didn't want to say anything, but I have to admit I agree with Specialis Sapientia. You're saying that your theory is completely non-spiritual. If you are saying this, then the truth is you don't understand CONTEMPORARY spirituality which is far advanced than age old religions. I agree that your theory is NON-RELIGIOUS. But non-spiritual? No, it retains the essence of spirituality, which fundamentally revolves around consciousness itself.

Consciousness even in spirituality remains independent from memories and so called personality identities. Except when such consciousness willfully holds onto it.

Contemporary spirituality has NO problem what so ever with science. In fact, contemporary spirituality actually believes that all of their beliefs should eventually be supported by science, not pit against it as we see with Christianity versus atheists. Contemporary spirituality already agrees that what scientists called 'energy' religions call 'spirit'. In other words, they aren't two different things in spirituality. Energy IS spirit and spirit IS energy.

The human consciousness IS energy and this is scientific fact. It's already being described as a field of energy entangled within the brain.

Now the biggest difference between materialistic science and spirituality is which came first.......the consciousness or the brain? Obviously science says brain comes first. The other big difference is what happens to this field of energy after the brain dies. Because this field of consciousness would cease to exist after the brain dies in materialistic science, it stops right there from aligning itself to what religions call a soul

But contemporary spirituality remains optimistic, and feels science has only begun the mysterious journey of mind and matter.

Is it possible to merge spirituality and science and talk about the human consciousness as something that can continue outside of the human brain? The answer is yes. While there isn't yet any absolute evidence of it, there are many ideas that have been put out there using a more scientific perspective. The one that interests me the most is the Field. Consciousness becomes entangled/composes this Field. And this Field in turn pervades the entire structure of the Universe. Placing mind before matter.

Even atheists are now imagining the possibility of downloading consciousness onto a computer - the future era of androids! (scary actually). But why is it that atheists can imagine this? Because consciousness is not physical.

Think of the Field as being like an internet in that you can view a website on your computer (physical). But this website(energy) still exists even if your computer blows up. Or you can think of the Field and consciousness as songs on radio waves. These songs continue to exist even if there are no more radio stations to pick them up!

Our brain/consciousness also has different frequencies just like our radio stations. To take this analogy even further..........people with transplanted organs testify that sometimes they develop new personality traits after recieving the transplanted organs. These pesonality traits match up with the individual whose organs were donated. Since it's unrealistic to imagine that organs carry out such personalities, it seems more likely that our body is designed to download us.

Seriously freaky territory if our bodies really do 'download' us! Take for example those suffering from multiple personality disorder. Actual physical changes in the body have been noted when one personality switches to the other - the color of the eyes can actually change!

http://www.deeptrancenow.com/exc2_mu...ersonality.htm

While I am not saying that there is absolute evidence that we are 'downloaded', neither is this idea impossible!! It certainly answers a lot of questions if you take the time to consider it.

As for patterns. You're right! Time is fractal. Fractal time is something that mystified ancient people. Why did the Mayans believe something would happen on 2012? It's not because they saw the future. It's because they believed the past patterns would repeat itself in the future. And that the repetition of this pattern (end of world or a new one, you decide) was inevitable because time is fractal.

It might be hard to imagine how time is fractal and how patterns within time repeat themselves. It's not that hard to imagine when you understand that time and space is all apart of the same thing. It's much easier to see how space is fractal because we can see the self repeating patterns with our own eyes.

I'm not saying join this or that religion - but what I am trying to say is - there is NO REASON for atheists to be so afraid of spirituality. You don't have to choose science or spirituality - you can have both.

Well, to each his own! I find this field of study fascinating

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Thanks Taosaur, I appreciate the thoughtful response. It sounds like you're talking about more traditional reincarnation, with a little Karma thrown in. This is the kind of stuff that doesn't sit right with an atheist/skeptic like me. It implies that some part of you lives on after the body dies. What I'm talking about is a completely rational idea that doesn't require any kind of magic or spirit.. it's completely in agreement with the scientific ideas that a mind can't exist at all without a physical body to produce it... the same way light from a light bulb can't exist once the current is turned off. Sure, there's naturally occurring light, but not that particular light produced by that bulb.

It also sounds like you're talking about people living again and meeting each time, like for instance Cleopatra and Mark Antony being reincarnated over and over and always finding each other/ re-enacting their love through various lifetimes. It's a great idea, but again it requires a belief in some part that lives on when you die. That just goes against all scientific rationality.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

How so? I see absolutely no reason why it wouldn't. The only things that are NOT allowed in a 'physical' world would be spirits, gods, and magic (which incidentally are REQUIRED in all other concepts of reincarnation I've ever heard of). The idea I'm talking about is completely secular and compatible with an atheist view.

Your conviction that karma and rebirth are "magical" only comes from a poor understanding, just as many people on this forum make statements about evolution that sound like Kipling's "Just So Stories" because they have an overly simplistic idea of natural selection. Karma is simply action and it's consequences in an interdependent universe, not some cosmic scoresheet where you get minuses for "naughty" and checks for "nice." It's a recognition of the chaotic complexity of the world in which we operate, which defies precise prediction of the outcome of events, such that the best we can do is keep the character of our actions in line with the character of results we'd like to see.

In terms of rebirth, you and I are saying very much the same thing: if the conditions in which you arose persist, "you," for all intents and purposes, will arise again. Buddhist masters often refer to successive incarnations as a stack of dice. There is no string running through them, nothing transferred between them, but each rests upon the ones before. You're exhibiting some very magical thinking in the insistence that your awareness is something consistent and wholly contained within the physical boundaries of your skull and the temporal boundaries of birth and death. In fact MOST of that awareness derives from conditions that precede your birth, are shared with many other beings, and will persist long after your death. If you make no impact upon those conditions, then "you" will certainly rise again, and the experience will be very repetitive.

This might be valuable..

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

By George, I think you've got it!!!

Xaqaria and LucidFlanders, you seem to understand exactly what I mean. Think about it like this juroara - you exist right now. Why now? Why didn't you exist a thousand years ago, and whoops... there goes your one shot at life! Or a hundred years in the future... why is it that of all the times you could exist it happens to be right now? OR.... what if you DID exist a thousand years ago, and you will exist again in a hundred years... through entirely different people... completely unrelated in any way, except for the subjective fact that you're inside that body.

All other ideas about reincarnation or an afterlife rely on some kind of magic or energy that exists when the body dies.... though probably because that's an easier way to visualize "living on" after the body dies.

Xaqaria, that pattern analogy is very good. Puts it into words better than I have yet. And you know.... the more I hear about Tibetan buddhism, the more I like it. It seems very down to earth. IN fact, I recently found something about it online that said any time there are scientific findings that contradict any of their beliefs they get together and think about it and find a way to adjust the beliefs so they reflect the new level of human understanding of the universe and nature. Spiritual belief that keeps itself informed of scientific findings!!! What a novel concept!! That's the single biggest problem with most religions, the fact that they jealously guard their dogma against all human progress. The dogma, and hence the religion, becomes fossilized and soon fails utterly to have anything to do with reality as we currently understand it. That's putting the cart in front of the horse!!

Man, it feels good to know other people understand this idea the same way I do! And don't feel bad that it's an already existing belief system... I wasn't hoping to claim I invented the idea or anything, I was actually hoping it already existed so smarter people than me would have pondered it and written stuff down about it.

Technecally(sp?) there has to be some type of energy, or invisible residue or something. This future you can only exist when the now you is dead, you can't exist at the same time. This different you is someone else, but it's not someone else like someone who you can see and is a pal or a stranger or whatever, it's pretty much you but everything in this new you is completly different then the now you. You are a brand new person, new everything, but you are still you from the past from other lives, just have everything taken out and when you exist again everything is put back in and you are a new human being including new parents who are not related to your past lives people. It's hard to understand and talk about, but it's pretty simple at the same time.

What it pretty much comes down to is you are born, you are part of your parents and their parents and etc, you die and you lose everything there is and arguably you cease to exist in a non existing void of nothingness (or you have a soul...who knows). You are now dead, and everything that made you you, is now completly gone forever. But you are not gone forever, you are just gone for a short, or REALLLLLY long time, but time does not exist when you are dead, there is no such thing as time so it's like when you have surgery, you go under and wake up and feels like 1 second has passed when it's been hours. It will feel like 1 second has passed but it's been days to millions/billions of years, same difference really, just a longer period of time. Anyway, you are now alive again, you have new parents in you, and their parents and stuff are in you all the way back, you have a different personality. Everything and i mean EVERYTHING that made you who you were in the past has completly changed because you are now part of somene else and have their attributes and stuff. You grow up, and you are a new person and then you die and it happens all over again. The only thing that does not change, is whatever it is that keeps you you, without all the stuff you get growing up and through your family. That stuff is temperary, whatever keeps you you (or as we say, someone else), is you forever and will never change and maybe 1 day we will figure out what it is.



Of course this is all theory. But it makes so much more sense then every other reincarnation theory that is around. Incarnation IMO makes more sense then anything i can think of, even life. People are born everyday,people die everyday, more people are born. How can there be 1 life to live if people are born every single day?