Thread: Anarchy

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

Would you care to elaborate?

Surely.

I'm not sure which part you'd like me to elaborate on so I'll just say a little about both statements.

I guess saying that we can't live like "this" without businesses and corporations is removed from the truth too. Society obviously would be vastly different without business interest, but what I should have said is the standard of living could be equal or even greater. All we would need to do is put the people in power of the means of production. Not wealthy CEO's part of a BIG CLUB out to make windfall profits at the expense of other humans and the earth's resources.

It should strike most people as odd when they see third world countries with massive amounts of natural resources but somehow they are billions and billions of dollars and debt and not showing any sign of rising out of poverty. It's pretty clear that this is the work of multinational corporations and banking cartel. Corrupting government officials and their leaders, corporate sponsored assassinations, and overthrowing democratically elected leaders are common things in third world countries even to this day. You won't hear it on the news, but the information is out there.

Look at Latin America. They're in the midst of all sorts of protests, revolutions, and riots. They've been in the crosshairs of multinationals for decades and they're fucking sick of it. For years and years these people have been raped for their land and resources for corporations like Shell, Bechtel, etc. They're purposely kept poor and defenseless so they can continue to suck their lands dry and rob them for everything they have.

Originally Posted by SpecialInterests

Surely.

I'm not sure which part you'd like me to elaborate on so I'll just say a little about both statements.

I guess saying that we can't live like "this" without businesses and corporations is removed from the truth too. Society obviously would be vastly different without business interest, but what I should have said is the standard of living could be equal or even greater. All we would need to do is put the people in power of the means of production. Not wealthy CEO's part of a BIG CLUB out to make windfall profits at the expense of other humans and the earth's resources.

Could you elaborate on putting people in power of the means of production? I don't want to make you write an essay, I'd just like to see where you're coming from.

It should strike most people as odd when they see third world countries with massive amounts of natural resources but somehow they are billions and billions of dollars and debt and not showing any sign of rising out of poverty. It's pretty clear that this is the work of multinational corporations and banking cartel. Corrupting government officials and their leaders, corporate sponsored assassinations, and overthrowing democratically elected leaders are common things in third world countries even to this day. You won't hear it on the news, but the information is out there.

Wouldn't it be more honest to say that the current governments of said countries are operating under economic policies that stifle prosperity, improvement, and the standard of living? I don't doubt that there are government-corporation relationships (there are in the U.S., which currently runs under a neo-mercantilist/corporatist/facist-ish economic system - which might be a case against government itself), btw.

Look at Latin America. They're in the midst of all sorts of protests, revolutions, and riots. They've been in the crosshairs of multinationals for decades and they're fucking sick of it. For years and years these people have been raped for their land and resources for corporations like Shell, Bechtel, etc. They're purposely kept poor and defenseless so they can continue to suck their lands dry and rob them for everything they have.

Again, I ask what I said above. I think it would be fairer to say that government policies (inflation, massive spending, etc) have caused the standard of living to plummet. And yet again, as I said, I don't doubt that there are corporatist tendencies, but wouldn't it make sense to say that the government is raking in the profits of selling the resources of its land, with no regards to its citizens?

OP I have to say, I believe you are a little over the top on this. The very reason why we have societies was because of the safety in numbers mentality. Then the problem became other groups who were competing for resources...after a while, the figured out they could get more done if they worked together for resources and cities started form, this kept going until we had countries...The very reason why we have society is because there is always someone grabbing for power, control, whatever...In the end we need a system in place that can prevent that. Im not sure why you said you hate western society explicitly when eastern society progressed in the same way...

Well, I don't believe I'm over the top at all, and I believe you have backwards logic. Societies weren't created to prevent someone grabbing for control, society, the way it is now, is SURRENDERING common power and giving it to an entity. A government. And what gives them the right to decide what the fuck I do? Granted, I agree with certain basic laws. A lot of shit is ridiculous. I'm sick of being a slave to the goddamn system.

Back when we were neanderthols, and probably weren't self-aware, and probably didn't know a lot about anything beyond natural instinct, the "safety in numbers" bit was valid, and made sense. Now, safety in numbers.. from WHAT? Ourselves. And if we weren't so goddamn simple minded and ego-gripped beings, we wouldn't be threats to ourselves.

I agree that technology probably wouldn't as far along as it were today, that's true. Technology which allows us to have convenient things that pollute the earth tremendously, create medical technology which helps us live longer and continue to feed our disgustingly over-populated species. Granted, I'm not saying all technology is bad. I'm saying a lot of it isn't necessary.

What this all comes down to is money. Money is the root of all evil. The most despicable thing imaginable. Almost all crime could be traced back to something to do with money. We're slaves to it, and it's not even fucking valuable. It's paper. It's digits on a screen. The only reason it's worth anything is because people think it is.

Speesh, I agree with you that ironically, this ranting about wishing humans would just evolve to a better state of mind, comes from an egocentric state of mind. Ironic.

SpecialInterests, you're right. There are a lot of great things about societies. Unfortunately, I think there are a lot more bad things than good. Like the fact that old ass farts who have obsolete, old-fashioned ideas for this country are the ones running the show, because the people who are actually mentally apt enough to do the jobs, are too smart to get involved in politics. We have a corrupt fucking government. Everything revolves around money, and therein lies the biggest factor.

tkdyo, I should rephrase. I don't hate the CONCEPT of society. I just hate what it is. It doesn't have to be centralized around money, which inspires people to do enourmously terribly things, and means horrible struggle for people who were born into unfortunate SOCIAL situations. Classist situations. It would take a semi-apolcalyptic event to change things now, we're so deep in it.

Societies can function without all of this bullshit. When people stop trying to control one another, everything gets balanced. Pssh. I'd really like to believe that's ever going to happen.

Maybe you'll like this?

http://flag.blackened.net/daver/anarchism/

Originally Posted by dajo

Maybe you'll like this?

http://flag.blackened.net/daver/anarchism/

I was expecting this when I saw the word flag and anarchism in the same link.

Well, and what did you discover?

Originally Posted by Rainman

Well, I don't believe I'm over the top at all, and I believe you have backwards logic. Societies weren't created to prevent someone grabbing for control, society, the way it is now, is SURRENDERING common power and giving it to an entity. A government. And what gives them the right to decide what the fuck I do? Granted, I agree with certain basic laws. A lot of shit is ridiculous. I'm sick of being a slave to the goddamn system.

Back when we were neanderthols, and probably weren't self-aware, and probably didn't know a lot about anything beyond natural instinct, the "safety in numbers" bit was valid, and made sense. Now, safety in numbers.. from WHAT? Ourselves. And if we weren't so goddamn simple minded and ego-gripped beings, we wouldn't be threats to ourselves.

I know where you are coming from with this. There are laws I disagree with and think are bs too, but what I was trying to say is that people ARE controlling and ego-gripped, which is why we need laws and society in the first place.

Originally Posted by Rainman

What this all comes down to is money. Money is the root of all evil. The most despicable thing imaginable. Almost all crime could be traced back to something to do with money. We're slaves to it, and it's not even fucking valuable. It's paper. It's digits on a screen. The only reason it's worth anything is because people think it is.

I agree to a point. Money is something very easy to have great greed for, but in the end its not even money itself, its the lust for the power than money brings. This lust for power has been evident through out our history, sadly.

Originally Posted by Rainman

tkdyo, I should rephrase. I don't hate the CONCEPT of society. I just hate what it is. It doesn't have to be centralized around money, which inspires people to do enourmously terribly things, and means horrible struggle for people who were born into unfortunate SOCIAL situations. Classist situations. It would take a semi-apolcalyptic event to change things now, we're so deep in it.

Societies can function without all of this bullshit. When people stop trying to control one another, everything gets balanced. Pssh. I'd really like to believe that's ever going to happen.

ok, this I like better, and yes I would love for society to be able to work in a different manner...people will need to change greatly first though.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

Could you elaborate on putting people in power of the means of production? I don't want to make you write an essay, I'd just like to see where you're coming from.

CEO's aren't appointed by people they are going to have an effect on. I guess what I mean is that corporations should be transparent and we should have a say in how they carry out their operations and how the employ their policies.

Corporations and institutions that support them are usually highly secretive. Well they have to be because if American people were informed about what their richest corporations are doing they that'd be bad for them. It's not in their interest for us to know. It's easier if we're just mindless consumers with a forceshield over our heads our entire lives.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

Wouldn't it be more honest to say that the current governments of said countries are operating under economic policies that stifle prosperity, improvement, and the standard of living? I don't doubt that there are government-corporation relationships (there are in the U.S., which currently runs under a neo-mercantilist/corporatist/facist-ish economic system - which might be a case against government itself), btw.

Indeed this is precisely the case. The people in power have huge influence on other governments through economics mainly, and when that fails they have military.

The US supports leaders of other countries that helps their corporations. Even if this means fascist military dictators and corrupt politicians in order to get what they want. Governments are not serving their purpose when they can be bought off like this.

You can control masses of people and governments by putting them massively into debt. Once this has happened they are at your service, they can be exploited, they can be kept poor, they can be blackmailed. And that's what it's all about know.

Empire building is no longer done by sword and shield, it's much much more effective through economics.