Thread: What does spirituality provide that science doesn't?

Ok, you still didn't answer with how science can explain why you are depressed.

If you answer with "because a brain chemical change. That doesn't ride. Because I just proved that "you can change your brain chemistry on your own" or that someone else can change your brain chemistry.

Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

Ok, you still didn't answer with how science can explain why you are depressed.

If you answer with "because a brain chemical change. That doesn't ride. Because I just proved that "you can change your your brain chemistry on your own" or that someone can change your brain chemistry.

I already answered it. They even have pills made to help fix the problem. So what you can change it? i even said you can change it, there is still brain activity going on up there, it does not stop just because you're depressed. They got people making these pills to change your bad problems in your head and sometimes it works, sometimes it does not work. When i used anti depressants they actually made me sleepy and i never choose to be sleepy so i did not change my brain chemistry but the pills did.

Ok im off to bed, just so you know i'm not skipping out because i have nothing to say.

You didn't answer the question. Again.

Same thing with depression. While the emotion may be by a physical thing, it is all brain chemicals running wild. So yeah, science can tell you why you feel this way.

That's not answering my question.

Curing depression is way easier than you think by the way. Not that I'm against medicine. But IMHO, I feel that anti-depressants make the problem worse. Because it makes you sleep, which in turn make you more introverted, less energy, etc. Medicine may help, but in the end it's going to come down to your own well-being that cures depression.

To cure depression ALL you have to do is be happy. That's it. I'm not talking about you in general, I'm talking about depression and schizophrenia and introversion. When you open up to the world, you automatically will be happy. It's funny because people who do this are considered crazy lol. What does that tell you.

Like i said, i told you already. The question was science cannot explain why a person is depressed, and i said yes it can, brain chemicals. That is all that needs to be said. That is all i am going to say on the matter because there is nothing else to say.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

I already answered it. They even have pills made to help fix the problem. So what you can change it? i even said you can change it, there is still brain activity going on up there, it does not stop just because you're depressed. They got people making these pills to change your bad problems in your head and sometimes it works, sometimes it does not work. When i used anti depressants they actually made me sleepy and i never choose to be sleepy so i did not change my brain chemistry but the pills did.

Ok im off to bed, just so you know i'm not skipping out because i have nothing to say.

Yeah and those with first hand experience all know how wonderfully well those pill work. They've been giving them to me too and they fucked me up 10fold. As good as everyone that recieved and took pharmacuitical psychoactive pills can testify that these scientists theories are irrational and the practical reality is that 9 out of 10 times they only mess you up alot worse. You don't very often hear a depression causing someone to commit an atrocity such as School-shootouts. However pretty much all school shootouts have been caused by depressed people being pushed over the edge by anti-depression pills.

Mainstream science in the field of Psychology/Psychiatry has no fucking idea as to what their doing to people's minds. Allthough they claim to know it is merely holding on firmly to conserved ideas allthough in practical reality they are obviously shown to fail in actually understanding and helping people. Truely they cannot understand and explain the human mind and they're too proud to admit that. They simply ride on a heap of unfounded assumptions that they find most likely.
They're not open to the truth if it doesn't fit in their prefabricated set of scientific beliefs. That's no science at all if you ask me.


Off COURSE so many turn to religion instead and prefer highly irrational ideas.
They're not really any more irrational than rigid, doctrined mainstream scientific beliefs.

psssssttt...


There are depressed people right now who have been taking pills for years who absolutely testify that these pills work, and immediately effect their overall well being. Too bad no one told these individuals they have been a part of a long going experiment and the pills they have been taken all of these years are...SUGAR PILLS

The placebo pill works even for depression for a reason - because depression doesn't start with some chemical imbalance. The chemical imbalance is the result of the unbalanced state of being, and not the other way around.

Why have been doctors telling us that depression is a chemical balance that's easily cured with a simple pill? Easy money.

I haven't read any of the posts other than the OP... but the most obvious answer is probably comfort or well-being.

Yea, Juroaura.

Ritalin is also a hoax. Just dope the child up, by running out all his/her seratonin up and make them depressed so they can "conform" with society.

Originally Posted by SKA

But as I see it, the subconscious is infinitely more than just an Archive for our Experiences and Perceptions. It also appears to be the "location" of our Moral Consciousnous and Creativity. And god knows what else. Let's explore.
In short I see the subconscious to be the underestimated TRUE intelligence of mankind. Too bad it is rather seen and labelled as the "Lowest, most primitive" and emotionally troubled and insane part of the Human Psyche by mainstream Science.

That is why it is subconscious in the first place is because we don't accept it. It is all the parts we of our mind that either we are not alert enough to notice, or we don't want to admit is part of us. Gandhi was celibate for his religious reasons. In his autobiography he says that all day he never thinks about sex but at night that is all he dreams about. That is because he has been suppressing his sexuality and driving into the shadows of his subconscious. If you ignore something it doesn't go away. It builds up. When Gandhi was older he started sleeping with teenage virgin girls in his bed. He would sleep with two or three naked virgins. He wouldn't have sex with them because his tool didn't work anymore because he was old and he had destroyed his life energy by too much fasting and driving his urges into the subconscious.

But the subconscious isn't necessarily have to filled with demons and skeletons. In fact, the more that we allow ourselves to be conscious, the more we accept and own of ourselves, the greater and more expansive we allow ourselves to be, the more honest we are with ourselves regarding our faults and our shadow, all these will help to bring the subconscious into consciousness. It is like turning on the light and seeing your room is a mess and you clean it up and you realize that there are no monsters in there so you don't have to be afraid of your room.

Carl Jung said that one does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light but by making the subconscious conscious. The subconscious is huge. Every single experience of our life is recorded there whether we remember it or not. Every thought that we have ever had. Every feeling we have ever had is recorded there. The subconscious keeps us breathing and our heart beating. Most of our self, our being, is subconscious. And that which we think we are, the conscious, is just a flickering blip of awareness.

The way to allow it into consciousness is to be willing to listen to it. It wants to be heard. It is like a child, it has the emotions of a child and doesn't really care about logic and rationality. It cares about feelings. So listen to your feelings. Practice lucid dreaming. Listen to the messages in your dreams. Learn the language of symbols the subconscious uses to try to communicate to you in your dreams. Own your shadow. Accept that you have bad, dark, evil, parts to yourself, that you sometimes are an asshole or a bitch. Accept it. Look at how you have hurt people in the past. This is all stuff that we deny. When we are an asshole we blame it on someone else and say that they deserve it. Excuses are excuses. Aknowledge all that yuo have been denying. Turn on the light. Then forgive yourself and realize that you have acted this way because you weren't conscious. Start cleaning up the room.
The subconscious is very very wise, but nobody listens to it.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

That is why it is subconscious in the first place is because we don't accept it. It is all the parts we of our mind that either we are not alert enough to notice, or we don't want to admit is part of us. Gandhi was celibate for his religious reasons. In his autobiography he says that all day he never thinks about sex but at night that is all he dreams about.

I had no idea that's revealing!

I definitely want to learn more about my own subconscious and how to start communicating with it. Hard Wired's thread has been helpful. But we should make a DVs classroom just for this sort of thing!

I've had communication from my subconscious one time. Verbal. When I awoke from sleep prematurely. I think that is the best time to communicate because your not using your logical/critical mind at that point and your much relaxed.

I'm starting to think that the voice I heard might have been something more than the subconscious though. It was talking to me directly. It wasn't like hypnagogia auditory hallucinations in which you just hear random sounds and stuff when you attempt to WILD. Maybe super-conscious, or some kind of oversoul or higher version of me? Maybe the same thing people who say they "channeled" are referring to.

Whatever is was that was communicating with me was very far away..distant. Like it seemed it had to yell it's message to me just so I could hear it. It's more than just "Trying to listen". I think you have to go a certain amount of time with a clear conscious mind and a meditative state to hear it while your wide-awoke. This is much harder than it sounds.

The subconscious is very very wise, but nobody listens to it.

Like i said, it's more than just trying to listen. Most people get instincts or gut-feelings that might just be something as little as your heart beating way faster, or you hands start to shake when you feel your in danger or something. That's as much subconscious communication I get during waking life.

Well... I can't give any "intelligent" responses to your post like the ones above... BUT.. here is my simple response... spirituality simply makes life worth living. It adds color and spice to being.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

That is why it is subconscious in the first place is because we don't accept it. It is all the parts we of our mind that either we are not alert enough to notice, or we don't want to admit is part of us. Gandhi was celibate for his religious reasons. In his autobiography he says that all day he never thinks about sex but at night that is all he dreams about. That is because he has been suppressing his sexuality and driving into the shadows of his subconscious. If you ignore something it doesn't go away. It builds up. When Gandhi was older he started sleeping with teenage virgin girls in his bed. He would sleep with two or three naked virgins. He wouldn't have sex with them because his tool didn't work anymore because he was old and he had destroyed his life energy by too much fasting and driving his urges into the subconscious.

But the subconscious isn't necessarily have to filled with demons and skeletons. In fact, the more that we allow ourselves to be conscious, the more we accept and own of ourselves, the greater and more expansive we allow ourselves to be, the more honest we are with ourselves regarding our faults and our shadow, all these will help to bring the subconscious into consciousness. It is like turning on the light and seeing your room is a mess and you clean it up and you realize that there are no monsters in there so you don't have to be afraid of your room.

Carl Jung said that one does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light but by making the subconscious conscious. The subconscious is huge. Every single experience of our life is recorded there whether we remember it or not. Every thought that we have ever had. Every feeling we have ever had is recorded there. The subconscious keeps us breathing and our heart beating. Most of our self, our being, is subconscious. And that which we think we are, the conscious, is just a flickering blip of awareness.

The way to allow it into consciousness is to be willing to listen to it. It wants to be heard. It is like a child, it has the emotions of a child and doesn't really care about logic and rationality. It cares about feelings. So listen to your feelings. Practice lucid dreaming. Listen to the messages in your dreams. Learn the language of symbols the subconscious uses to try to communicate to you in your dreams. Own your shadow. Accept that you have bad, dark, evil, parts to yourself, that you sometimes are an asshole or a bitch. Accept it. Look at how you have hurt people in the past. This is all stuff that we deny. When we are an asshole we blame it on someone else and say that they deserve it. Excuses are excuses. Aknowledge all that yuo have been denying. Turn on the light. Then forgive yourself and realize that you have acted this way because you weren't conscious. Start cleaning up the room.
The subconscious is very very wise, but nobody listens to it.

Interresting. I have a very similair view of the subconscious.

Never knew that of Ghandi, but I've never been a fan of fasting, Celebacy and other forms of Deprivation. It creates well.. a deprived being.

Everytime I didn't listen to my intuition something bad happened. It has allways been right. 100% I see the reason why we don't accept parts of our being to be the Ego and it's conscious mind. It thinks it knows better than the superior Subconscious. Pride you know? Like a child would tell his parents"Don't help me. Me wanna do it myself!"
And in that pride the Ego dominates and surpresses our intuitive intelligence. With troublesome, sometimes disastrous consequences.
And this is how our Egos separate us from our true underlying intuitive/subconscious nature. The more Ego we have the less connected to our true intuitive nature we are.

Originally Posted by juroara

I had no idea that's revealing!

I definitely want to learn more about my own subconscious and how to start communicating with it. Hard Wired's thread has been helpful. But we should make a DVs classroom just for this sort of thing!

That is what LD's are for, no?besides, from what i have heard the subconscious can't be communicated with because it's so random in how it talks because of all the things you have learned. You can ask it questions, and it replies with jibberish.

PS: Juroara. The many psychoactive pills I was given SURE as hell weren't sugar pills.
Some made me numb and emotionally flatlined, some tampered with my hormone levels, some gave me heart rythmic disorders(to the point of fainting) and I guess the combination of them ( + alot of psychological stress from my enviroment) put me into a serious lengthy psychosis.

The result of Science(Psychiatry) missing Intuition.

Sure there are people who's medications really do help alleviating depression, psychosis..etc, but they have been rare in my personal experience. 9 out of 10 people with such issues and such medications resent their medications and refuse to take them.

You couldn't resent sugar pills THAT much.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

The subconscious keeps us breathing and our heart beating.

I believe the involuntary actions like heartbeat etc are actually controlled by the UNconscious, not the subconscious. At least these are the 3 divisions Freud created, conscious, subconscious, and unconscious. I've always been a little hazy on exactly what the difference is between sub- and un-, but Im sure the involuntary actions are part of the unconscious. Though for the purpose of this discussion the distinction might be irrelevant, and it does tend to complicate things slightly.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Own your shadow. Accept that you have bad, dark, evil, parts to yourself

Ah yes, the Jungian Shadow!! This is a large part of the reason for my username (which I've had for a long time, well before joining this forum). I believe as I said in the first post in my DJ, that the Dark Matters... the darkness inside each of us that most people deny exists. Dannon, I feel exactly the way you do on this issue... we each need to try to own the Shadow... accept that we're bad as well as good. You mentioned something about turning on a light... but if you think about it, every time you turn on a light half of your body falls into shadow. Heh... ok, not sure what I mean by that.... because I DO believe it's possible, at least to SOME extent, to own your Shadow and try to own up to your failings and faults. Not all of them though... some we'll always be in denial of, or we might be able to own them briefly (when we really try) and then they slip into unconsciousness (or make that subconsciousness... ) as soon as we remove the spotlight of attention from them to again concentrate on daily stuff.

You guys are spot on about deprivation and the problems it causes... that's exactly why the churches are riddled with sexual abuse of children. It's a shame men of the cloth are expected to live a life of sexual denial. And I think it points a warning finger at what certain religions do to their believers... when you go around feeling like you're holy and sanctified and can do no wrong, your shadow only grows bigger. Stronger light creates a darker shadow (I know, I studies lighting for making my stopmotion films )

Ok,, and this thought actually answers my earlier statement (I'll repeat it here): every time you turn on a light half of your body falls into shadow. Heh... ok, not sure what I mean by that....

... And the answer? In terms of lighting for a miniature stopmotion set... reflectors! It can be as simple as pieces of white posterboard reflecting light into areas of darkness. The same applies metaphorically to the Jungian Shadow... we can cast light into that dark half of ourselves with the reflector of awareness... by thinking about the darkness inside. Being aware of the mechanisms of denial and how they work - beneath the radar of normal conscious awareness.

One of the best things I've gotten from Castaneda is the idea of losing your sense of self importance. When you begin to do that, you can clearly see how almost everyone around you spends most of their time comparing their self-importance and having pissing contests to see whose self-importance is more bloated. When you stop feeling self-important, people will laugh a lot because they just think they win the contest now, but you don't care... it's a pointless contest... who cares if they win it? I think this is a huge step toward owning your Shadow. It's because of that self-importance and the need to demonstrate that yours is bigger that leads to many harmful acts toward others. Little indiscretions that over time add up.

Stop doing it!

Be humble and unassuming.

It's a lot less important to win the argument than to plant the seed of a good idea in the other person's mind by letting them win. It's a little trick I use a lot... like on those courtroom shows where a lawyer keeps bringing up stuff that he knows will get thrown out of the official record but it still influences the jury's decisions... it doesn't matter if you WIN... as long as the idea gets across. And often after "losing" these fights, a week or two later Ill hear the "winner" going around stating the idea I implanted as if he thought of it, even after he fought against it tooth and nail for the big win!!

Wow, was that completely irrelevant? Sorry... Im rambling here...

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Sorry... Im rambling here...

Its your thread

True dat! Actually it's OUR thread though. I only started it.

I find it interesting that this thread started from a scientific perspective and yet digressed into the discussion of such a pseudo-scientific subject as the subconscious. The language that this thread has come to largely consist of could never be considered scientific, or even really spiritual. I don't know if this is simply a matter of misinformation or what; some of you have made reference to 'science's' opinion of the subconscious or 'mainstream science's' opinion, but there is nothing that is recognized at all by the scientific community called the subconscious. There is the state of consciousness and the state of unconsciousness; there are the Freudian conscious, unconscious, and preconscious; and there are the jungian personal unconscious and collective unconscious, but there is no subconscious as far as science is concerned.

Well like you mentioned Xaqaria, there are the more populair beliefs and streams withing Psychology. They are the scientific views of the human Psyche that most psychologists and psychiatrists swear by and work by these days. That is what I mean with "Mainstream Psychology"

Then there are the less common views of the Human psyche. By the arrogance of mainstream science this is often called Pseudo-science. Simply because these views have different assumptions about the human psyche.

Assumptions because also the populair mainstream views of the human psyche are largely assumptions.

Originally Posted by SKA

Well like you mentioned Xaqaria, there are the more populair beliefs and streams withing Psychology. They are the scientific views of the human Psyche that most psychologists and psychiatrists swear by and work by these days. That is what I mean with "Mainstream Psychology"

Then there are the less common views of the Human psyche. By the arrogance of mainstream science this is often called Pseudo-science. Simply because these views have different assumptions about the human psyche.

Assumptions because also the populair mainstream views of the human psyche are largely assumptions.

I don't think it is by arrogance, but by the fact that the less common views that I believe you are speaking about don't follow the same standards of research. Many of these views are still at the stage of hypothesis and yet their proponents will advertise them as if they are already capable of explaining a wide range of experiences. I think that no matter how someone explores existence and their particular perspective on reality, they should do it in a methodical way that waits to draw conclusions until the last possible moment. Obviously, any explanation of the mind is going to include some form of assumption. I have to assume that you have a mind at all (not intended as an insult, the general you) because their is no way for me to directly experience it.

True that.
Except I find most mainstream science to not be any less speculative and assumptuous.
Therefor I don't see why the less common views of the human psyche are any less improbable. ( Not including people that act as scientists but aren't actually professional, educated scientists)

Off course I know of which bogus "science" you speak. I also find some "science" to lack any type of rationality.

But the uncommon streams within science that I think are often labelled Pseudo-science injustfully are the ideas of Scientists like Rick Strassman. The writer of "DMT; The spirit molecule"
Are you familiar with Rick Strassman, his research and his method of investigation?


Do you think he practices Pseudo science?
I don't think he practices Pseudo science, yet his views do challenge mainstream scientific views of the Human Psyche and Psychoactive substances.
He just practices a more openminded method of investigation, but never the less a rational one.

He has been able to balance Intuition(Spirituality) with Reason(Science)

Really enjoying this thread so far, everyone
Here and there it gets a little vague and/or superstitious for my tastes, but the quality of discussion overall is great.

I'm just going to elaborate on a point Xaq made a while back: there is often natural truth behind symbols and teachings that appear supernatural to the uninitiated. When we assess spiritual teachings as truth claims, whether from a position of skepticism or 'blind faith,' we reduce whatever elementary formulation of the teaching has reached us to caricature, divorcing it almost entirely from whatever insight originally inspired it. Many symbols and teachings still provide some benefit even on this level, but the novice's or outsider's straw-man understanding won't stand up to close scrutiny. At such a point, we can discard the teaching and turn our attention elsewhere, or if we still feel the tug of truth, meaning and mystery in the teaching, we can begin to trace it back toward the original inspiration. Having taken up such a path, we may look back and find that what we once took for the teaching itself was in fact only a sign, battered and half-effaced, indicating the remnants of a long road.

So what does spirituality provide that science cannot? A topographic map of the human experience, showing the way both to depths of awareness and through difficult passages where those before us--perhaps more gifted--have found the way. Religion is technology, and as with science, offers us the opportunity of "standing on the shoulders of giants."

Taosaur, I love what you posted here! I completely agree that most of what we currently perceive as belief systems coming down from ancient times have actually been modified and translated and interpreted etc until they bear little resemblance to their original forms.

Your last passage... here it is:

So what does spirituality provide that science cannot? A topographic map of the human experience, showing the way both to depths of awareness and through difficult passages where those before us--perhaps more gifted--have found the way.

(The part of it I want to respond to - I don't understand what you mean by "Religion is technology")

I believe what you said in the quote I copied is completely compatible with human endeavor WITHOUT the need for a supernatural spirit or soul. I'm not sure, maybe that's exactly what you were saying to begin with... but my original idea with this thread (that I so poorly got (failed to get) across with my inept alliterative title) is that you can successfully remove anything supernatural - including any concept of a spirit that exists after the body dies - and still get essentially the full benefit of most spiritual teachings.

I'm referring here to spirituality in the more metaphorical sense... the way it's been described several times in this thread. A non-supernatural spirit... as in that spirit of adventure or spirit of the times. The spirit we all feel within us sometimes... I believe it's a system of feelings and thoughts, hormones and other chemicals naturally released by the body.

Aw heck... I'll just paste this in here. It's from the book The New Atheism by Victor Stenger, and he describes what I'm trying to say much better than I have:

Naturalism--the view that all of reality is reducible to matter and nothing else--is sufficient to explain everything we observe in the universe, from the most distant galaxies to the inner workings of the brain that result in the phenomenon of mind.
Atheism cannot compete with any of the supernatural religions that
disingenuously promise eternal life. All the evidence points to a purely material
universe, including the bodies and brains of humans, without the need to
introduce soul, spirit, or anything immaterial. But, repeating the quote from
Richard Dawkins given above, “You can be an atheist who is happy, balanced,
moral, and intellectually fulfilled.”

To that last sentence I would add Spiritually fulfilled.

To hazard a tentative answer to my original question... what does spirituality provide that science doesn't (this assuming, as I've explained a couple times that Spirituality means SUPERNATURAL spirituality and Science means - not ONLY the actual scientific process itself or the findings thereof, but the worldview predicated on it and that includes nothing seemingly counter to rationality)?

... I would say what that kind of spirituality provides is everlasting life - or the belief in it. Some form of everlasting life... either through reincarnation or some kind of afterlife.

Is there more? Something essential that I'm leaving out? Aside from that sense of security, which answers one of the most basic and existential fears of being human... namely the fear of death and of our own mortality - does a belief in SUPERNATURAL spirit bring anything else that a rational, naturalistic (as th term is used in the quote above) worldview can't?

Keep in mind... it's not necessary to believe in a supernatural spirit in order to meditate or to experience epiphanies and revelations.