Thread: Proof that your Government is Not Really Yours

Originally Posted by Rainman

It's insane to think about, but it's all true. We constitutionally, don't have to pay taxes

16th Amendment: The Congress shall have power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and excises but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.

let blackwater tools and fbi puppets search our homes

4th Amendment: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I don't mean to say what is in the Constitution is correct, moral, just, right, etc (I think the whole Constitution is a bunch of wish-wash anyway), but it is in there.

I meant income taxes, which is specifically outlined in the constitution as prohibited. I was rushing to write that response.

Originally Posted by Rainman

or let blackwater tools and fbi puppets search our homes

I really hate it when people, in their fits of blind rage, insult decent, hardworking people. Is every government employee scum to you?

Originally Posted by Caprisun

I really hate it when people, in their fits of blind rage, insult decent, hardworking people. Is every government employee scum to you?

They're all working toward the same goal in my mind.

Do I hate them? No. Do they make good choices? No.

Originally Posted by Caprisun

I really hate it when people, in their fits of blind rage, insult decent, hardworking people. Is every government employee scum to you?

Wow, what an absurd exaggeration. I didn't even realize I was in a "fit of blind range," I thought I was rather calm. Also, firstly, no every government employee is not scum to me. Blackwater + FBI ≠ "every government employee."

Secondly, Blackwater is private, and not technically a part of the government, thirdly a "tool" and a "puppet" are both neutral terms to describe someone who is being used for something that they may or may not be completely aware of. Your classification of those as an insult is your own creation, not mine.

And fourthly, although hardworking they may be, anyone who breaks into your home, plants and sabotages things, and then takes you away without a warrant or explanation is in no way a "decent" person. Calm yourself.

Originally Posted by Caprisun

I really hate it when people, in their fits of blind rage, insult decent, hardworking people. Is every government employee scum to you?

This is the crux of the problem as I see it. The government and indeed the whole country is filled with mostly decent people. It is the systems in which we organize ourselves that set us up to do bad things to each other, and it becomes difficult to question that structure because everyone takes it personally. The way in which we are governing ourselves is fundamentally sick and just needs a cure. Cures for this kind of sickness are usually painful, but avoiding them will be worse.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

They're all working toward the same goal in my mind.

Do I hate them? No. Do they make good choices? No.

What bad choices does a postman make?

Originally Posted by Rainman

Secondly, Blackwater is private, and not technically a part of the government, thirdly a "tool" and a "puppet" are both neutral terms to describe someone who is being used for something that they may or may not be completely aware of. Your classification of those as an insult is your own creation, not mine.

And fourthly, although hardworking they may be, anyone who breaks into your home, plants and sabotages things, and then takes you away without a warrant or explanation is in no way a "decent" person. Calm yourself.

Firstly, I know Blackwater is private. Secondly, "puppet" and "tool" are neutral by themselves, but the context you've used them in was clearly meant to invoke a negative connotation upon the individuals who work in those career fields. Don't try to deny it, there is no other reason you would use those words. Thirdly, the FBI doesn't break into anyones house without probable cause. Don't partake in criminal activities and you'll have no problem. Why are you defending the rights of criminals? Should they be free to conduct illegal business in the privacy of their homes? Those men are more than decent in my eyes.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

This is the crux of the problem as I see it. The government and indeed the whole country is filled with mostly decent people. It is the systems in which we organize ourselves that set us up to do bad things to each other, and it becomes difficult to question that structure because everyone takes it personally. The way in which we are governing ourselves is fundamentally sick and just needs a cure. Cures for this kind of sickness are usually painful, but avoiding them will be worse.

Though the country and the world in general is filled with mostly decent people, you can't blame the system. No matter what system of government you set up, the people are still the root cause of any wrong-doing. Blaming the system is a cop out and in a sense absolves criminals of any crimes they've committed on account of they were influenced by the system, it's a way of not taking responsibility. No matter what alternative you propose, people will cause problems.

Originally Posted by Caprisun

What bad choices does a postman make?

He works for a government monopoly, although a postman and, say, a solider are completely different.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

He works for a government monopoly, although a postman and, say, a solider are completely different.

Maybe a postman doesn't have a problem with a government monopoly. He would consider his choice to be a good one since he gets paid and he is providing the country with a much needed service.

Originally Posted by Caprisun

Though the country and the world in general is filled with mostly decent people, you can't blame the system. No matter what system of government you set up, the people are still the root cause of any wrong-doing. Blaming the system is a cop out and in a sense absolves criminals of any crimes they've committed on account of they were influenced by the system, it's a way of not taking responsibility. No matter what alternative you propose, people will cause problems.

I agree, which is why I have the most respect for those politicians and servicemen who are able to step outside of their roles and speak up when the system is compelling them to do something that they know is wrong. Soldiers who disobey the chain of command when their orders go against what they know to be right are the bravest people this country has to offer.

There is a difference however between cause and responsibility. I think what causes politicians to be influenced so strongly by campaign financing is the system that allows for such massive amounts of money to be exchanged, but ultimately the responsibility falls on those politicians that have control over the policies and those that allow themselves to be influenced, as well as us citizens that condone the behavior with our complacency. There are plenty of decent people who would willingly take millions of dollars to vote a certain way. The fact that they are decent does not change the fact that this isn't a good way for government to run.

Originally Posted by Caprisun

Maybe a postman doesn't have a problem with a government monopoly. He would consider his choice to be a good one...

And to me, that is a bad choice. It's all subjective.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

There is a difference however between cause and responsibility. I think what causes politicians to be influenced so strongly by campaign financing is the system that allows for such massive amounts of money to be exchanged, but ultimately the responsibility falls on those politicians that have control over the policies and those that allow themselves to be influenced, as well as us citizens that condone the behavior with our complacency. There are plenty of decent people who would willingly take millions of dollars to vote a certain way. The fact that they are decent does not change the fact that this isn't a good way for government to run.

I understand what you mean, there are certain constructs within our government that make corruption and dishonesty inevitable. My point is that corruption and dishonesty are inevitable in any form of government that involves humans. You can change laws but people will always find ways around them. I know you will say this is common sense and you only want to make it as honest as possible, but it is hard to do that without infringing upon rights. You can't take a persons right to give a million dolllars to whoever they want. All of the great societies of history were plagued with corruption, but not many enjoyed the freedoms that Americans do. I don't understand what you want to change about that.

Ironically, the only change I would argue for is a change back to following the constitution strictly and honestly. Although giving money may be protected by our right to free speech, there is nothing in the constitution that suggests we should treat corporations to these same rights just because politicians decided that they would give corporate entities legal status as "persons".

our constitution is a surprisingly good resource for limiting corruption. If we were to hold our politicians to the constitutional standard then there would be far fewer problems. At this point, we have strayed so far from the ideals set down at our nation's framing that unconstitutional policies are the norm and therefore over looked.

Originally Posted by Caprisun

Firstly, I know Blackwater is private. Secondly, "puppet" and "tool" are neutral by themselves, but the context you've used them in was clearly meant to invoke a negative connotation upon the individuals who work in those career fields. Don't try to deny it, there is no other reason you would use those words. Thirdly, the FBI doesn't break into anyones house without probable cause. Don't partake in criminal activities and you'll have no problem. Why are you defending the rights of criminals? Should they be free to conduct illegal business in the privacy of their homes? Those men are more than decent in my eyes.

You're right, I was being an asshole, and I'm sorry.

However, I do somewhat disagree with you. Probable cause is probable cause as designed by the government. Maybe if I'm someone who decides I'm going to expose the government for the lying sack of shit that it [collectively] is, maybe they decide to label me as a terrorist in order to not have whatever "plans" they have derailed.

Also, in my opinion, some laws are enforced improperly. I don't know how to put this into words, but there is a difference in my eyes between moral rule and law. Did you know that you, according to the VICTORY Act are categorized as a terrorist for having on your person any controlled substance? So some guy who is an upstanding gentlemen who, is a war veteran, and donates to charity regularly, who saves babies for a living or something, and happens to have weed on him because he likes to smoke weed is "legally" a terrorist, and thus, as outlined in the VICTORY Act, gives the FBI or other organizations "probable cause" to exercise their authority if need be.

Either way, they are abusing those powers, and there is no denying that. The USA PATRIOT Act 1 & 2, along with the VICTORY Act, however dispicable, were designed to catch ACTUAL terrorists, which in my opinion don't exist anyway. Now they are misuing these new granted powers to suspend the constitution even further to invade citizens rights, and that's fucked up.

But I agree with you, not everyone is a scumbag, but they all, every single one of them, knowingly or unknowingly, work for an evil machine of war, greed, corruption, and oppression. I do believe that as individuals, they are decent human beings. I was just being rude, and again I apologize.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

our constitution is a surprisingly good resource for limiting corruption. If we were to hold our politicians to the constitutional standard then there would be far fewer problems. At this point, we have strayed so far from the ideals set down at our nation's framing that unconstitutional policies are the norm and therefore over looked.

Xaqaria, that's exactly right, I believe. Don't get me wrong, in many respects, many of the founding fathers were assholes, but they were extremely wise and intuitive when it came to politics. They KNEW that if the constitution wasn't upheld, exactly what is happening now would happen, and hey, what do ya know... it's happening. They tried to warn us of this by putting all of these protective clauses in the Constitution, that have slowly been chizzled away. The people behind this treason are wise in very very very slowly and systematically removing certain rights so that they can "protect" us, which is why we were also warned against the war machine by various presidents and politicians.

I don't even entirely blame the government. Politicians are being bought off, and I truly believe that even the strongest minded of individuals would have a struggle to not give into such gratuitous amounts of money. It's hard to resist that, and as hard willed as I am, even I cannot be sure that I wouldn't fall victim to that as well. As I've always said, the root of all of our problems is the global fractional reserve system. Get rid of it. Fractional reserve banking is technically unconstitutional, according to citations from the Articles of Freedom that Xaq posted a few posts ago.

Originally Posted by Rainman

You're right, I was being an asshole, and I'm sorry.

However, I do somewhat disagree with you. Probable cause is probable cause as designed by the government. Maybe if I'm someone who decides I'm going to expose the government for the lying sack of shit that it [collectively] is, maybe they decide to label me as a terrorist in order to not have whatever "plans" they have derailed.

Also, in my opinion, some laws are enforced improperly. I don't know how to put this into words, but there is a difference in my eyes between moral rule and law. Did you know that you, according to the VICTORY Act are categorized as a terrorist for having on your person any controlled substance? So some guy who is an upstanding gentlemen who, is a war veteran, and donates to charity regularly, who saves babies for a living or something, and happens to have weed on him because he likes to smoke weed is "legally" a terrorist, and thus, as outlined in the VICTORY Act, gives the FBI or other organizations "probable cause" to exercise their authority if need be.

Either way, they are abusing those powers, and there is no denying that. The USA PATRIOT Act 1 & 2, along with the VICTORY Act, however dispicable, were designed to catch ACTUAL terrorists, which in my opinion don't exist anyway. Now they are misuing these new granted powers to suspend the constitution even further to invade citizens rights, and that's fucked up.

But I agree with you, not everyone is a scumbag, but they all, every single one of them, knowingly or unknowingly, work for an evil machine of war, greed, corruption, and oppression. I do believe that as individuals, they are decent human beings. I was just being rude, and again I apologize.



Xaqaria, that's exactly right, I believe. Don't get me wrong, in many respects, many of the founding fathers were assholes, but they were extremely wise and intuitive when it came to politics. They KNEW that if the constitution wasn't upheld, exactly what is happening now would happen, and hey, what do ya know... it's happening. They tried to warn us of this by putting all of these protective clauses in the Constitution, that have slowly been chizzled away. The people behind this treason are wise in very very very slowly and systematically removing certain rights so that they can "protect" us, which is why we were also warned against the war machine by various presidents and politicians.

I don't even entirely blame the government. Politicians are being bought off, and I truly believe that even the strongest minded of individuals would have a struggle to not give into such gratuitous amounts of money. It's hard to resist that, and as hard willed as I am, even I cannot be sure that I wouldn't fall victim to that as well. As I've always said, the root of all of our problems is the global fractional reserve system. Get rid of it. Fractional reserve banking is technically unconstitutional, according to citations from the Articles of Freedom that Xaq posted a few posts ago.

"However, I do somewhat disagree with you. Probable cause is probable cause as designed by the government. Maybe if I'm someone who decides I'm going to expose the government for the lying sack of shit that it [collectively] is, maybe they decide to label me as a terrorist in order to not have whatever "plans" they have derailed."

That sounds more like a movie script than reality. Maybe you've watched one too many action movies? There may be isolated incidents similar to this, but the government doesn't make a practice out of jailing innocent people. FBI agents aren't schooled on how to plant evidence and frame crime scenes.

"Also, in my opinion, some laws are enforced improperly. I don't know how to put this into words, but there is a difference in my eyes between moral rule and law. Did you know that you, according to the VICTORY Act are categorized as a terrorist for having on your person any controlled substance? So some guy who is an upstanding gentlemen who, is a war veteran, and donates to charity regularly, who saves babies for a living or something, and happens to have weed on him because he likes to smoke weed is "legally" a terrorist, and thus, as outlined in the VICTORY Act, gives the FBI or other organizations "probable cause" to exercise their authority if need be."

I would have to read that for myself before I believe it. From the way you've described it, it sounds like complete nonsense.

"The USA PATRIOT Act 1 & 2, along with the VICTORY Act, however dispicable, were designed to catch ACTUAL terrorists, which in my opinion don't exist anyway."

Is this a typo?

Originally Posted by Caprisun

"The USA PATRIOT Act 1 & 2, along with the VICTORY Act, however dispicable, were designed to catch ACTUAL terrorists, which in my opinion don't exist anyway."

Is this a typo?

He may be talking about "actual terrorists" in the sense that there are people out there that simply hate the U.S. for its "freedom," which is nonsense.

I'm not sure though. He'll have to clarify.

Originally Posted by Caprisun

I would have to read that for myself before I believe it. From the way you've described it, it sounds like complete nonsense.

Are you going to say anything intelligent, or just insult me for no reason just for the sake of being a douchebag? I appologized to you, and then provided nothing but information. No insults, nothing but my opinion backed up by government documents that you can read for yourself. And instead of something intelligent and/or factual to say back, you respond like an angry child. At least other members who act like angry children add something intelligent to the thread, instead of posting solely for the purpose of showing how much of an asshole they are. I reiterate to you that I apologized for my somewhat warranted harsh words from before. Even then, I had something intelligent to say.

So when you can do the same, maybe this discussion can continue. Until you say something intelligent in regard to the good points I made, instead of insulting me and accusing me of "watching too many action movies" just because you can't accept the reality of what I'm telling you, I'm going to just let our respective posts speak for themselves. I say something factual, you fart childish insults through your computer in response, and then accuse ME of saying "complete nonsense." Please grow up.

Originally Posted by Rainman

Are you going to say anything intelligent, or just insult me for no reason just for the sake of being a douchebag? I appologized to you, and then provided nothing but information. No insults, nothing but my opinion backed up by government documents that you can read for yourself. And instead of something intelligent and/or factual to say back, you respond like an angry child. At least other members who act like angry children add something intelligent to the thread, instead of posting solely for the purpose of showing how much of an asshole they are. I reiterate to you that I apologized for my somewhat warranted harsh words from before. Even then, I had something intelligent to say.

So when you can do the same, maybe this discussion can continue. Until you say something intelligent in regard to the good points I made, instead of insulting me and accusing me of "watching too many action movies" just because you can't accept the reality of what I'm telling you, I'm going to just let our respective posts speak for themselves. I say something factual, you fart childish insults through your computer in response, and then accuse ME of saying "complete nonsense." Please grow up.

Whoa!!! Have I been calling you names? There must be a ghost editing my posts after I leave cause I could have sworn I was being perfectly cordial with you, and I could have sworn you just called me a douchebag and an asshole. Don't act like you're better than all of these angry children you speak of because you have just proven you are capable of the same immature behavior. You had somewhat redeemed yourself by apologizing (though now you say your comments were "somewhat warranted," so i guess its a half-apology) but this totally negates any redeeming that may have taken place. (I didn't ask for an apology by the way, you should just feel bad for saying the foolish things you did and repent out of your own free will.)

Incase your eyes were too glazed to read my comments, I did respond to your "intelligent" point by telling you it's all in your head. You have no proof, no facts, only hair-brained ideas and fantastical stories. If you provide me some credible information, I may have something to say about it. And don't tell me to go read government articles because you know damn well I don't have time for that and I really doubt you have read all of those documents yourself. If you are going to cite government documents as a source, you need to bring the relevant parts to the discussion rather than telling me to go and read it for myself. And I will have to read it for myself because I certainly will not take your word for it. Did my words really warrant this kind of reaction? Im not sure I want to converse with you if you are unable to control your temper.

"accusing me of "watching too many action movies" just because you can't accept the reality of what I'm telling you"

It struck a chord didn't it?

i am not sure who said that people will get as much tyranny from government as they allow. at what point do we say enough? i have worked hard and earned a house and built a business. at what point do i say enough taking from what i have built to give away to bankers and lazy asses? at what point do we stand up and DEMAND the feds to stop the unconstitutional and inhumane wars we are fighting right now? (and by demand i mean really taking action and throwing them out of congress and the white house) At what point do we get tired of the endless inflation(hidden tax) of our fiat monetary system(dollar)? We built this country without an income tax or a property tax and i think the free market proved itself. END THE NEW WORLD ORDER

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8d...en-waitin_news watch this video if you are as mad as hell and you will remember we as human beings have power over our reality. watch the who owns you on the right hand side if you enjoy some Carlin. FIGHT THE NEW WORLD ORDER

I am sad that this thread is dead. I seems I was here in the beginning, and then I lost it. I like what everyone said. I didn't know about the articles of freedom! I will look into this.
So, Xaq, Invader, Rainman, Memento, etc. let's get some land together, and some women, and be self sufficient permaculture and solar power and educate others to do the same. Or else get some Bactrian Camels and become Nomads with our yurts. The land down here is pretty fertile and the climate is great for growing. I have done it in the National Forests before when I was a hermit. I had gardens and stashes of wildcrafted food buried along the Pacific Crest trail. I had tons of Pine Nuts stashed in those Y2K buckets buried at landmarks. They are probably still there, if they are still any good. Acorns are good source of protein and fat. We could have communities up and down the Appalachian trail and the Pacific crest trail and we could have a trade route where we deliver goods via horses, llamas, camels, etc. I always wanted some bactrian camels, which are sweeter than dromedaries, and they have good wool which is a good commodity. In the south we can grow corn for calories, and sesame for oil, in the North you got the yummy Maple Syrup! In the South we got sorghum molasses, tobacco, cotton. Out west they have the good weed and the good shrooms.

There is a primitive skills gathering outside of Asheville, North Carolina called the Firefly gathering or festival. Look for it on facebook or something. I am looking to learn more about primitive skills. I know how to build a shelter, make fire from scratch. But I never made a snare or trap work successfully. I know about invisibility though, and it works very good, even against infrared.
Also, in cities there are plenty of places for urban gardens and guerrilla gardening in vacant lots, rooftops, etc. Neighborhood gardens.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

...let's get some land together, and some women, and be self sufficient permaculture...

So you consider women as tradeable commodoties for breeding stock. How enlightened of you.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

I know about invisibility though, and it works very good, even against infrared.

LOL WUT?

I don't mean that women are tradeable commodities! I mean it would suck to live off the land with just a bunch of guys. You know, have families etc. I am sure that if a bunch of women wanted to go live off the grid off the land they would want some men around. I always also wanted to get a sailboat and sail around the world for the rest of my life, but whatever I do to get off the grid and free from the system, it would be nice to have the company of both genders. Not as a commodity for breeding stock, how funny that you put it that way.

As far as the invisibility, that takes practice. I practiced sneaking across the border of Canada and Vermont. After getting caught a few times, I learned to hide from infrared cameras using the lake and the bushes and mud. Mud hides body heat very good. But it makes you cold.

Originally Posted by Sekhmet

So you consider women as tradeable commodoties for breeding stock. How enlightened of you.

Making a pass?