Thread: New Healthcare Bill Passed - Your thoughts?

You think our debt is funny? Obama's socialistic fantasy goes way beyond healthcare. The healthcare system is just a great place to get the change to socialism going (after taking over banks and dominating auto companies). Healthcare is 1/6 of the U.S. economy. The parallel between Obama and those other two scum bags is that all three leaders came to power during vulnerable times due talk of socialistic change. I think society's vulnerability to such leaders is extremely dangerous. Look at how so many socialist leaders have turned out? Obama got elected to the presidency of the most powerful country in the world without having ever accomplished anything politically other than getting elected. I think it is extremely freaky that such a thing can actually happen.

I'd say that there is a distinct difference between Germany anno 1933 and USA now, though you do have a point.

I'm still undecided on this plan. I'm all for eliminating industry practices that lead to people being refused coverage or dropped when they need care the most, but how well the state exchanges and the rest will work really depends on how it's all implemented. As an uninsured small-business employee, I'm thinking it will fall on me to find a plan, and I'm really hoping it doesn't amount to being forced into some kind of near-useless minimum coverage at rates slightly reduced from the ones I can't afford now :/

We'll see if the state exchanges do anything to introduce competition, but without the public option, I'm highly skeptical.

It is pretty disappointing that certain democrats demanded that Obama double-super-pinky-swear that it's not part of a master plan to kill teh babehz. If all the Chicken Little garbage about Socialism weren't proof enough, you can tell this country has been dragged far right of center when the whole GOP goes off to pout in a corner and we're STILL held hostage by the holier-than-thou brigade.

The debt is a sick joke, and its not funny. Especially when all the countries in Europe are in debt as well. Socialism eventually leads to Totalitarianism. When the government owns two thirds of the economy why stop there? They might as well grab the rest, and they do. When everyone in the country works for you, you pretty much have full control.

Everyone knows(or should know) that the larger the government the more corrupt it grows. So why are people always trying to increase government?

Eventually all of Europe is just going to merge into one government under the EU, and then a group or person will take over the government and the entire thing will turn totalitarian. At that point its going to suck to live there. Though the majority of people will just roll over and take it.

The US is already fairly socialist as it is, and here they are just building and growing that power base. Eventually another very charismatic person like obama will show up, and he will take over the entire country.

Luckly here in the US we still have a guns, and a lot of them. So there is a chance we can defend ourself.

As for Europe they are already screwed. They have laws severly limiting guns, and 'offensive' free speech. Once you give up your free speech and guns, you might as well just bend over. Its only a matter a time before their countries are taken over.

The threatening possibility you are talking about is extremely real, Alric. That type of thing has happened a ton in European history to individual nations. Fortunately, there were other nations in Europe to end up making changes. If the EU ever becomes a country, Europe could very easily follow its historic pattern and become a totalitarian nation, and it will be all of Europe doing it. It would take a world war to undo such a situation, and if the U.S. is totalitarian enough by then, the world is just fucked. Why people trust government so much after all that has happened in history is something that baffles me tremendously.

Those offensive speech laws that are forming in Europe are scary as Hell. I agree that throwing out free speech and gun rights is a recipe for totalitiarianism. People have nothing to work with to defend their societies once those rights are gone.

There aren't any anti free speech laws being passed in Europe. Some radical Muslim group a while back tried to pass them (can't remember where... could've been a EU thing) and through the democratic process they were told to fuck off.

I wonder if you guys have ever visited Europe... you seem very misinformed about what it's like.

To be a Swiss citizen you're actually required to have training in firearms. Hardly a conspiracy to rid the population of power.

Originally Posted by Xei

There aren't any anti free speech laws being passed in Europe. Some radical Muslim group a while back tried to pass them (can't remember where... could've been a EU thing) and through the democratic process they were told to fuck off.

I wonder if you guys have ever visited Europe... you seem very misinformed about what it's like.

To be a Swiss citizen you're actually required to have training in firearms. Hardly a conspiracy to rid the population of power.

I lived in Mannheim, Germany long ago, and you are misinformed about your own continent.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3788

Nobody said anything about a conspiracy. We talked about bad laws and vulnerability.

Jesus Christ I have to straighten out your mischaracterizations a lot. Were you raised to be this dishonest?

Originally Posted by Xei

To be a Swiss citizen you're actually required to have training in firearms. Hardly a conspiracy to rid the population of power.

Switzerland isn't a memeber of the European Union, so they don't really count now do they? Of all the countries actually in the EU, most of them have severly limited gun control laws. And most of the countries are not passing restrictions on free speech, they have had them in places for years now.

Originally Posted by Xei

There aren't any anti free speech laws being passed in Europe. Some radical Muslim group a while back tried to pass them (can't remember where... could've been a EU thing) and through the democratic process they were told to fuck off.

I wonder if you guys have ever visited Europe... you seem very misinformed about what it's like.

To be a Swiss citizen you're actually required to have training in firearms. Hardly a conspiracy to rid the population of power.

Ssshhhhush. You'll disrupt their persecution narrative.

Oh, and which party is using a xenophobic, mythologized nationalism to rally the disaffected again?

Originally Posted by Taosaur

Ssshhhhush. You'll disrupt their persecution narrative.

Oh, and which party is using a xenophobic, mythologized nationalism to rally the disaffected again?

The Islamofascist Party?

In case you are talking about the Republican Party, I don't think a Republican has posted in this thread. Don't waste your time going down that road.

I've followed this bill from it's beginning to now, I had a faith sewn in dead soil that the american people would not allow this bill to pass... I myself feel let down by my country. I cried for almost half an hour this morning when i woke up. I feel like a piece of shit for bringing my son into a life in a country as hypocritical and full of bull crap as this...

Yes it does have some benefits, but if i choose to not purchase health care BECAUSE I'M AN AMERICAN AND "HAVE THE FREEDOM OF CHOICE" i will be fined???

Bite me america...

These are my thoughts and the exact process i'm taking:

Save enough money for a small place in Europe (like renting an apartment for a certain amount of time)

Save for two tickets without dates so i can use them when the time comes

Get together some luggage material and then gather extra clothes and amenities for the big move

IMMEDIATELY start applying for jobs in Europe such as construction and manual laborers because those are generally needed all the time everywhere and most everyone hates them so there's usually an opening in most small companies. (also adapt and start using the European system of measuring)

I'm disgusted with the direction this country is adopting. I have the choice to not purchase healthcare (and if i suffer the consequences of not having healthcare when an accident arises then i will accept it as my fault and take it like a man). This isn't the country it was meant to be, in my opinion America fails and i'm packing my bags and leaving.

If you think i'm being a little too extreme then you try not having healthcare because all you can afford on your salary as a single father is a roof over you and your sons head, food on the table, and lights and water while trying to save your extra money for your sons college fund because he shows exceptional understanding of math and language... america can kiss my backside, the corporate bought fools aren't touching my sons money or taking mine or his freedoms, i'll unplug myself from this power/money hungry beast now.

thanks,
MementoMori

Originally Posted by Xei

There aren't any anti free speech laws being passed in Europe.

Originally Posted by Alric

Switzerland isn't a memeber of the European Union, so they don't really count now do they? Of all the countries actually in the EU, most of them have severly limited gun control laws. And most of the countries are not passing restrictions on free speech, they have had them in places for years now.

uh... free speech is a pretty big issue here as well.
To name a recent one that was in the center of discussion:
Internet Cencorship (to prevent child pornography or some
other stupid reason to get those laws to look rightous).
For a while now it has been a topic of discussion by many
newspapers, wether or not it would make sense to do so.

@Alric
And in addition, there is an entire level of laws added
with the lissabon treaty. Many are passed, some aren't.
I mean, it doesn't make much sense to me, if you say
that the laws have been in place for years, if the entire
structure of Brussel is being re-organized.

Originally Posted by MementoMori

Save enough money for a small place in Europe (like renting an apartment for a certain amount of time)

To go into a country with socialized health care?

Originally Posted by MementoMori

IMMEDIATELY start applying for jobs in Europe such as construction and manual laborers because those are generally needed all the time everywhere and most everyone hates them so there's usually an opening in most small companies. (also adapt and start using the European system of measuring)

Gotta have insurance, if you want a job

Originally Posted by MementoMori

If you think i'm being a little too extreme then you try not having healthcare because all you can afford on your salary as a single father is a roof over you and your sons head, food on the table, and lights and water while trying to save your extra money for your sons college fund because he shows exceptional understanding of math and language... america can kiss my backside, the corporate bought fools aren't touching my sons money or taking mine or his freedoms, i'll unplug myself from this power/money hungry beast now.

now I'm confused, I thought you were argueing 'anti-government'.

Where do you live dajo? I am not saying all of the countries over there are exactly the same, the EU hasn't taken over the entire thing yet. They are just worming their way into grabbing more and more control. Most of the countries have laws limiting free speech. Most hidden under of the guise of hate speech, or slander laws(which branch out over other areas), among other things.

The EU may be working on the laws and changing them all the time. Though when I said some have been like that for years, I am talking more about the individual countries who have laws against them for years.

The US isn't perfect either, we get people trying to pass the bullshit laws all the time as well, though at least in theory we are protected by the consitution.

Spoiler for OffTopic:

Originally Posted by Alric

Where do you live dajo? I am not saying all of the countries over there are exactly the same, the EU hasn't taken over the entire thing yet. They are just worming their way into grabbing more and more control. Most of the countries have laws limiting free speech. Most hidden under of the guise of hate speech, or slander laws(which branch out over other areas), among other things.

I live in Germany.
And I guess I ultimately agree with you. I am pretty critical
towards the EU- unfortunately most people I talk to (here)
don't know anything regarding events there, because news
coverage is so one sided.

The EU may be working on the laws and changing them all the time. Though when I said some have been like that for years, I am talking more about the individual countries who have laws against them for years.

Yeah, there are big differences between law on a national level and
law on the EU level. Furthermore it's even entirely impossible to
really compare the judicial systems of the indivudal nations with
each other, because in some cases, they couldn't be any more different.

What I was talking about, though, is the lissabon treaty. This contract
has been an issue for years now and it's the worst the media has done
about covering an issue as important as this one, in my humble opinion.

It is in power since December 2009.

The US isn't perfect either, we get people trying to pass the bullshit laws all the time as well, though at least in theory we are protected by the consitution.

Far from perfect. And, in the US as in Europe, being protected by a
constitution really does become mainly theoretical. I'm still curious,
as to how they want to implement European law in accordance to it.
(Or how it will ultimately work out)

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Healthcare is cheaper in Canada but not as good. That is why so many Canadians come here for better service.

And yet there are a ton of Americans who come to Canada to illegally receive free health care. THAT is robbery.

I think the anti-socialists should calm down a little. This bill isn't anywhere close to being socialized health care, and the US isn't anywhere close to being socialized. Even then, every other developed country in the world has had universal health care, some for over 50 years, yet we haven't gone apeshit and started hailing the swastika.

About the US debt, it's pretty simple... Americans are ridiculously under-taxed. I know it's an unthinkable act over there, but when you're some 13 trillion dollars in debt and fighting two wars on the other side of the globe, there aren't a ton of choices. Or maybe the white house could have a garage sale.

It's most amusing how people state (specifically those that follow Keynesian economics) that this bill will actually reduce healthcare costs and that everyone will be treated fairly. A few problems come to mind.

First, medicare funding will be cut in order for medicaid funding to increase. Not exactly fair treatment.

Second, people bitch about current premiums being so high and that costs need to be brought down. I wonder if said people realize the consequences of price controls, and realize that it is largely the creation of the American Medical Association (AMA) and other such regulations that has caused these high prices. Remember that in 1906 roughly ~56% of hospitals were private. By the 70's (I think) that number was around 10%. By the 1990's the government had taken over essentially all of the healthcare industry. Any private hospitals that remain now are heavily regulated beyond belief.

The best part is that during this government takeover, medical expenditures rose by 224% (1965-1989). Then the number of hospital beds per 1,000 population dropped 44% and the number of beds used (occupied) fell by 15%.

Even the costs per patient-day rose 24-fold (after inflation). Think government will lower costs? Take a look at history.

Third, how will this bill be paid for? If I recall it's a trillion dollar bill. If that isn't bad enough, realize that no bill ever enacted has stayed within its original monetary limits. At least no recent ones that I know of.

The difference between government bureaucracy and private industry is that the government doesn't have to worry about money. If they're providing a poor service they don't need to worry about losing money. They just increase the budget under the guise of "providing better service." Bad performance is rewarded with more money! Private industry has to maximize its dollars to provide better services, and they usually do so.

Don't forget the mountains of inefficient bureacracy brought to you by the "caring" government.

Finally (fourth): the public option. I know it wasn't in the bill just-passed, but let's talk about it. It's simply a way for the government to have a stepping stone in which to completely take over insurance. Pro-public option folks will say it's just a way to ensure that everyone has insurance and it is a way for competition to flourish between government and private companies. Are they crazy? A public option (or gov. provided insurance) is, as stated, a way for the gov to take over health insurance. They will say private industry is "cheating" and impose more and more regulations to "make things fair." Eventually private industry won't be able to keep up and will probably fail, then the gov. will propagandize it saying "the free market has failed to prevent yet another service, so clearly we [the federal government] needs to provide it."

Originally Posted by Spartiate

And yet there are a ton of Americans who come to Canada to illegally receive free health care. THAT is robbery.

Yes. It is also robbery when Canadians get the "free" the healthcare in Canada.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

I think the anti-socialists should calm down a little. This bill isn't anywhere close to being socialized health care, and the US isn't anywhere close to being socialized. Even then, every other developed country in the world has had universal health care, some for over 50 years, yet we haven't gone apeshit and started hailing the swastika.

That's because they have had us to stimulate the world economy so much. If we go down, it is going to fuck all of you up. It will be a different world then.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

About the US debt, it's pretty simple... Americans are ridiculously under-taxed. I know it's an unthinkable act over there, but when you're some 13 trillion dollars in debt and fighting two wars on the other side of the globe, there aren't a ton of choices. Or maybe the white house could have a garage sale.

We don't undertax. We overspend.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Yes. It is also robbery when Canadians get the "free" the healthcare in Canada.

Canadians would disagree.

That's because they have had us to stimulate the world economy so much. If we go down, it is going to fuck all of you up. It will be a different world then.

Seriously? Thanks I guess... How many other of our social services does the US fund?

We don't undertax. We overspend.

On what, the US government offers very little in the way of public services. The only substantial things the US government could "easily" cut that I can think of are the wars.


Blueline, do you believe it ethical for people to profit over health care?

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Blueline, do you believe it ethical for people to profit over health care?

Define ethical.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

Define ethical.

Well that's subjective, as "ethical" means "in accordance with one's moral beliefs", which vary from person to person.

I just want to know if you think it is right/morally justifiable/sensible to profit from providing health services.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Canadians would disagree.

Oh dear.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Seriously? Thanks I guess... How many other of our social services does the US fund?

We don't fund you. We stimulate you.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

On what, the US government offers very little in the way of public services. The only substantial things the US government could "easily" cut that I can think of are the wars.

Click the link below for a very new perspective.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...deral_agencies

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Blueline, do you believe it ethical for people to profit over health care?

I do. It is very effective. Do you believe it ethical to take away a doctor's incentive to work hard?

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Well that's subjective, as "ethical" means "in accordance with one's moral beliefs", which vary from person to person.

So then asking if something is ethical is pretty useless lol.

I just want to know if you think it is right/morally justifiable/sensible to profit from providing health services.

I believe so, yes. Profits act as a signal not only of success, but that providers are serving their consumers at low costs.

Speaking as a Canadian, almost everyone here agrees that socialized healthcare is the way to go. We should know, after all, we've been doing it for decades!

Originally Posted by LRT

Speaking as a Canadian, almost everyone here agrees that socialized healthcare is the way to go. We should know, after all, we've been doing it for decades!

The ones who come here for better service don't agree.