New Healthcare Bill Passed - Your thoughts?

**Taosaur** · 03-28-2010 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

You can say whatever you like, but whether it is correct is another matter.

Sad attempt at a platitude?

"Most" people can agreed that slavery was good. "Most" people were wrong.

No U R

Originally Posted by ArcanumNoctis

I've got three jolly questions.

If someone is unemployed, do they automatically get Healthcare? If someone is unemployed, are they penalized with the threat of jail, a fine, or in any other manner for not having Healthcare? Also, will it pave the way for mandatory vaccinations as preventive medicine.

With the current state of the economy, there is a huge base of unemployment and it is rising. When looking at Healthcare from a different perspective, it could be utilized to recoup tax dollars lost from citizens not paying taxes due to being unemployed. Basically, the government needs tax dollars,or maybe due to the economic crisis our current Healthcare industry is on the brink of collapse without government aid of tax dollars.

Interestingly, I haven't seen these three questions addressed, when in reality they are very serious.

1) I think pretty much all the unemployed would be covered by the medicaid expansion, though not "automatically"--you'd still have to apply
2) I'm not 100% certain, but I would think if you fail to apply for medicaid, you would be subject to the tax penalty
3) Many vaccinations are already mandatory in most of the country if you want your kids to attend a public school, but as far as seasonal flu vaccines and the like, the most they could do is tie it to your premiums or eligibility--i.e. if you don't get a flu shot, you pay more or have to switch insurers. The most they're likely to do is say, "Hey, you should get a flu shot."

**Universal Mind** · 03-28-2010 11:10 PM

Check out what Nancy Pelosi tried to get passed.

http://republicans.waysandmeans.hous...umentID=153583

• Section 7203 – misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.

• Section 7201 – felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years.”

How do you like that?

**Spartiate** · 03-28-2010 11:20 PM

How is that different from any other tax evasion penalties?

**Universal Mind** · 03-28-2010 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by Spartiate

How is that different from any other tax evasion penalties?

It involves being charged a ton of money for just sitting there, not for working or buying anything. It is flat out extortion. It is what the mafia used to engage in in the Bronx. I am not sure how it relates to the Pelosi bill, but the bill that got passed does not allow room for honest mistakes and IRS discretion on determining good faith. There are no excuses. If you don't pay, you get fined to Hell and back. This is a huge leap in the direction of totalitarianism. Government oppression is getting way out of hand. Horrific stuff is happening to my country.

Do you honestly support the idea of five years in prison for not getting your own fucking health insurance? Not avoiding getting your children health insurance or paying taxes in general. Your OWN health insurance! How nosy and controlling is that? What is your definition freedom? Do you value freedom at all?

This stuff pisses me off so bad I am not that far from becoming an anarchist. Considering the history of European totalitarian regimes and how they kept popping up even in countries that had been free, why do people still trust governments with such gains in power? I hear Democrats now talking about how Republicans should be put in jail for inciting hate by speaking against the bill. What is happening? The entire Bill of Rights is under attack now. The prospect of a totalitarian regime completely taking over is not unrealistic. Some serious shit is going on here.

**Spartiate** · 03-28-2010 11:50 PM

Well the penalties you listed are as a result of willfully avoiding a TAX that is itself imposed as a penalty for not having appropriate health insurance. Now you can argue whether or not being taxed for not getting health insurance is OK, but I don't see why the penalties surprise you... Tax evasion has always brought about pretty harsh penalties.

**Universal Mind** · 03-29-2010 12:41 AM

The title of the article:

PELOSI: Buy a $15,000 Policy or Go to Jail

As for the bill that was passed, there is no room for good faith determinations. It is strict liability. If you don't pay, you get fined, period. That is not how our tax system has been working. It has been that if you didn't know you screwed up, you don't get penalized.

**Spartiate** · 03-29-2010 01:27 AM

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The title of the article:

PELOSI: Buy a $15,000 Policy or Go to Jail

As for the bill that was passed, there is no room for good faith determinations. It is strict liability. If you don't pay, you get fined, period. That is not how our tax system has been working. It has been that if you didn't know you screwed up, you don't get penalized.

Yeah that's what the title on the pro-Republican website says

... But if you read the quotes from the bill it clearly states that you will be taxed for not having appropriate insurance, and then, if "the government determines that the taxpayer’s unpaid tax liability results from willful behavior", the following penalties could be imposed.

The "willful behavior" part seems to leave the breathing room you're talking about.

**Universal Mind** · 03-29-2010 01:42 AM

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Yeah that's what the title on the pro-Republican website says

... But if you read the quotes from the bill it clearly states that you will be taxed for not having appropriate insurance, and then, if "the government determines that the taxpayer’s unpaid tax liability results from willful behavior", the following penalties could be imposed.

The "willful behavior" part seems to leave the breathing room you're talking about.

I think you're confusing the "Pelosi bill" with the bill that was actually passed. I posted the Pelosi bill provisions to illustrate the horror that was attempted, not what actually came true. The Pelosi bill was worse in the way that it involved jail time but better in that it had the "willful" language in it.

**Spartiate** · 03-29-2010 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I think you're confusing the "Pelosi bill" with the bill that was actually passed. I posted the Pelosi bill provisions to illustrate the horror that was attempted, not what actually came true. The Pelosi bill was worse in the way that it involved jail time but better in that it had the "willful" language in it.

Oh touché, I thought the Pelosi bill was supposed to enact penalties which haven't been determined yet.

**Universal Mind** · 03-29-2010 02:02 AM

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Oh touché, I thought the Pelosi bill was supposed to enact penalties which haven't been determined yet.

I just looked more into the strict liability issue. It looks like strict liability does not apply to all possible tax failures. It applies to underreported income and and overstatements of refund entitlements, but I can't find information on anything else it applies to.

http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&gl=us

Still, that much is messed up.