Thread: I Believe In The American Revolution

I was going to respond to spockman last night, but dannon beat me to the punch, we have to change the way we think. My internet crapped up on me, but here's my post. I'm too lazy to edit it

We human beings, as individuals carry ideas about life, about what life is meant to be, about how life is meant to be lived, what is moral, what is good, and so on. Our core fundamental ideas influence all of our actions. And everything we create, including our economies and governments.

To say that changing the individual changes nothing, makes no sense to me at least!

Our problem is at the core.

Take the green movement for example. Right now certain products and materials are labeled green. Such as fast growing lyptus wood. Great. Now what? Now companies can buy this fast growing sustainable wood, and build wooden houses in places that naturally don't even grow large trees, like a desert.

Is that green? No it's retarded. The green movement has been slow to adopt a new philosophy. It has been holding onto the old philosophy, of creating an end product. It's claiming that certain end products (like buildings) are green because they meet some sort of magical check list of what a eco-friendly building is supposed to look or sound like. Like using fast growing wood.

But it doesn't work this way. Scratching off a check list to create an end product doesn't actually create a eco-friendly green building.

The philosophy of what is green, of what is eco-friendly has to change. It's not about some sort of end product. It's about creating a human habitat that connects the human to their environment. The environment doesn't just include the surrounding natural wilderness, but the human component of the environment as well, community. Because every environment is different, there is no end-product that you could ever define for a company to churn out by the thousands across the globe. No, instead, what this philosophy defines is way to ensure that you are building a human habitat that connects humans with their environment. The actual end products, will be wildly diverse and different.

Which is great news for anyone who likes diversity, and professionals like architects and landscape designers!

Why am I bringing this up? Because you were asking me to define an end product. To start talking about these end products, and then debate over them and decide whether or not they work. That's the last thing I want to do.

I never suggested that we need to throw out the money that we have and go to local
debt free currency only. What I said was, RIGHT NOW, the ability to create a debt free local income is already there, and it's already legal. I brought it up because our monetary system isn't working for everyone. It's an alternative, an alternative that could help a lot of people in need.

But our monetary system does need an overhaul, and I would like to see all currencies backed by a real value.

Before we can start talking about the end products, whether it's policy, or the economy, we need to go back, way back, and identify the philosophies and ideas about life that created them. Because if we continue to create new products with those same philosophies and ideas about life, were going to get the same results!


I can see a lot of problems for starters with the philosophy of capitalism. It places profit above human beings.

A dire report is warning today that the British Petroleum (BP) oil and gas leak in the Gulf of Mexico is about to become the worst environmental catastrophe in all of human history threatening the entire eastern half of the North American continent with “total destruction”

I think what terrifies me the most is I can't even comprehend 2.9 million gallons. Every day? THAT'S HUGE. I have no idea what the after effects of all of this will be, but I have a feeling were going to be feeling it far beyond the gulf, and for at least a decade. Anyways, I think it deserves it's own thread. I wouldn't have much else to say except, this is actually scary. And, I feel a little too close to the gulf now.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Well if we look to ancient Alexandria in Egypt as an example, it was the pinnacle of culture and arts and sciences (in those days what they called science) and education and philosophy. All the Greek philosophers and artists were educated in Alexandria. Sure, they had currency, but it was based off of something real, not a figment of the imagination like our currency.

The time necessary to devote to artistic and scientific advancement comes with people working together. When people work together, survival isn't difficult at all. Modern farmers work a lot because they are farming to sell on the national and international market, not just for their own community and the whole community isn't behind them working with them.

The Arts and the Sciences didn't begin until agriculture gave us time to think about things and to create and express artistically.

Nobody will take over the communities if the communities defend themselves. Southern Oregon and Northern California already seceded from the Union at one time but of course that wasn't allowed. It is called the State of Jefferson. They can defend themselves if anyone tries to take over. I think start in the communities, the communities get together to work together in each state or region. A state is a country. Federal government is too big. In my democratic communist anarchy the idea is that each community decides how to police itself, kind of like ancient city states. Communities unite into tribes and/or State that decides how to govern itself.

I have a lot more ideas about science and technology but I have to go to work now.

You are right. People could work together to have free time and there could still be scientists and such. But aren't we already doing that now? That is, working together as a society? And unless there was tons of inner city trade/mining/mass production we would have to sacrifice many technologies. One could argue that if we lost television it wouldn't be that bad. But what about medical tech? Air conditioners? It is hard for me to picture factories producing these goods and mass distributing them to all of the nation-states. At least, it is hard to picture them doing that with anywhere near today's level of efficiency.

Communites could defend themselves to some degree. But what do you see in just about all nation-state scenarios where there isn't a national government? Bigger nation states pushing around smaller ones. A community of 1000 could do very little in refusing the will of a community of 100,000. And you are right, if people Also, this would take a couple generations to implement even after people changed the way they thought. And without an organized army, what if there was another World War? We could easily be wiped of the Earth if there were just scattered communities each with their own militias.

Originally Posted by juroara

I was going to respond to spockman last night, but dannon beat me to the punch, we have to change the way we think. My internet crapped up on me, but here's my post. I'm too lazy to edit it

We human beings, as individuals carry ideas about life, about what life is meant to be, about how life is meant to be lived, what is moral, what is good, and so on. Our core fundamental ideas influence all of our actions. And everything we create, including our economies and governments.

To say that changing the individual changes nothing, makes no sense to me at least!

Our problem is at the core.

Take the green movement for example. Right now certain products and materials are labeled green. Such as fast growing lyptus wood. Great. Now what? Now companies can buy this fast growing sustainable wood, and build wooden houses in places that naturally don't even grow large trees, like a desert.

Is that green? No it's retarded. The green movement has been slow to adopt a new philosophy. It has been holding onto the old philosophy, of creating an end product. It's claiming that certain end products (like buildings) are green because they meet some sort of magical check list of what a eco-friendly building is supposed to look or sound like. Like using fast growing wood.

But it doesn't work this way. Scratching off a check list to create an end product doesn't actually create a eco-friendly green building.

The philosophy of what is green, of what is eco-friendly has to change. It's not about some sort of end product. It's about creating a human habitat that connects the human to their environment. The environment doesn't just include the surrounding natural wilderness, but the human component of the environment as well, community. Because every environment is different, there is no end-product that you could ever define for a company to churn out by the thousands across the globe. No, instead, what this philosophy defines is way to ensure that you are building a human habitat that connects humans with their environment. The actual end products, will be wildly diverse and different.

Which is great news for anyone who likes diversity, and professionals like architects and landscape designers!

Why am I bringing this up? Because you were asking me to define an end product. To start talking about these end products, and then debate over them and decide whether or not they work. That's the last thing I want to do.

I never suggested that we need to throw out the money that we have and go to local
debt free currency only. What I said was, RIGHT NOW, the ability to create a debt free local income is already there, and it's already legal. I brought it up because our monetary system isn't working for everyone. It's an alternative, an alternative that could help a lot of people in need.

But our monetary system does need an overhaul, and I would like to see all currencies backed by a real value.

Before we can start talking about the end products, whether it's policy, or the economy, we need to go back, way back, and identify the philosophies and ideas about life that created them. Because if we continue to create new products with those same philosophies and ideas about life, were going to get the same results!


I can see a lot of problems for starters with the philosophy of capitalism. It places profit above human beings.

I agree with much of what you just said, J. Including the concept of what is green and that we should back up our currency with something real. (Like the gold standard.) I think it will take something drastic to shake up Americans into realizing that we need to be green. Maybe the repercussions of this oil spill will do most of that. Hopefully.

As far as currency? I would love to have a real monetary system. Really love it. But we really can’t. Not unless we can find some way to get out of debt. (Your ideas are as good as mine. When you have to start taking out loans to pay of the interest on loans, it seems as though you’ve dug a hole to deep to climb out of.) Because if we declare that our cash is now all backed by (insert tangible thing here) all of a sudden we owe trillions of dollars worth of real stuff to the globe. We are playing this tightrope walk of trying to keep everything in balance and sustain as long as we can. If the system collapses, maybe that will be the chance to go back to a standard of currency.

Our monetary system isn’t working for everyone. Fair enough. But nothing will work for everyone. Last of all a local currency. If you look at things philosophically, sure, you can avoid the ‘end product thinking.’ But when it comes to changes on major economic policies, we have to think politically. And politics do have an end product.

As far as capitalism, I see the same problem. It puts an emphasis on money not people. I can also see the problem with thinking that we can overcome human nature and have a system that uses anything but greed (or fear) as a motivator to help society. It just isn’t practical and has never been done in a way that maintains itself for very long on a large scale, that I can think of.

Originally Posted by spockman

As far as capitalism, I see the same problem. It puts an emphasis on money not people.

It puts an emphasis on people by allowing them to be free, acting individuals. Money is a means of exchange, not some mystical entity that enslaves people.

I can also see the problem with thinking that we can overcome human nature and have a system that uses anything but greed (or fear) as a motivator to help society.

What?

It just isn't practical and has never been done in a way that maintains itself for very long on a large scale, that I can think of.

Again...what?

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

It puts an emphasis on people by allowing them to be free, acting individuals. Money is a means of exchange, not some mystical entity that enslaves people.



What?



Again...what?

Sorry. Yeah, that wasn't worded very clearly. The thing that isn't practical is thinking that we can have a system that is driven entirely by 'higher' goals. That is, we can have a system where everyone just works for everyone else's sake. Like a perfect communism. It won't work.

Originally Posted by spockman

Sorry. Yeah, that wasn't worded very clearly. The thing that isn't practical is thinking that we can have a system that is driven entirely by 'higher' goals. That is, we can have a system where everyone just works for everyone else's sake. Like a perfect communism. It won't work.

What do you mean by higher goals?

And what do you mean by "works for everyone else's sake?"

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

What do you mean by higher goals?

And what do you mean by "works for everyone else's sake?"

By higher goals I mean a society where everyone goes to work and works their hardest not for any personal gain but just because it benefits the community as a whole.

Money is a means of exchange, not some mystical entity that enslaves people.

True! However, people who have a lot of money use money as a tool to enslave people.

I can also see the problem with thinking that we can overcome human nature and have a system that uses anything but greed (or fear) as a motivator to help society.

This is an example of the thinking that we have to change. Don't you see the problem of thinking that people can only be motivated by greed or fear? This is dangerous thinking. It seems to me that this kind of thinking is what allows facism and in fact asks for it. Sure facism is effective and efficient. The oil spill in the gulf is the result of greed. Our freedoms being taken away is the result of fear. You don't see the problem in this kind of thinking?

Here is a good question: Would you be willing to be motivated by anything other than greed or fear? Don't worry about other people, what would you like to use to guide your life? Greed and fear?

You are right. People could work together to have free time and there could still be scientists and such. But aren't we already doing that now?

No. We work less then when we did as hunter gatherers. But in ancient agricultural societies people worked on an average of three hours a day. I lived in communities in Hawaii and Oregon where we had to work 40 hours a month in order to earn room and board and still have produce to sell to make a profit for the farm. That is ten hours a week and the rest of the time we could swim, hike, surf, gaze at the stars. But now, the super rich get all the time and us peons need to work 9-5 forty hours a week to support them. I am not saying that they don't do anything worthwhile, I am just saying.

Air conditioners?

I can't give up my air conditioner! That is funny. I hope you aren't serious. If you know about energy efficient housing you would know that there is a free way to cool your house that people have been using for thousands and thousands of years. There are actually a few ways. You can live quite comfortably AND give up your air conditioning. Even in the Mojave desert. There is other technology I find to be more important, like the internet, medical technology, mostly communication and media technology, and free energy technology.

Many years ago I found a hand-made flier blowing in the wind and I grabbed it and read it. It said "I have a great idea! Why don't we have all the machines do all the work while we all relax and play!" That is all it said.

Originally Posted by spockman

By higher goals I mean a society where everyone goes to work and works their hardest not for any personal gain but just because it benefits the community as a whole.

I thought the point of "working" was to increase personal gains (at least materialistically and financially).

But if their "higher goals" are to work for the community as a whole and not themselves, then what is wrong with that? It is a voluntary action, if a bit naive.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

True! However, people who have a lot of money use money as a tool to enslave people.

How?

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

True! However, people who have a lot of money use money as a tool to enslave people.

This is an example of the thinking that we have to change. Don't you see the problem of thinking that people can only be motivated by greed or fear? This is dangerous thinking. It seems to me that this kind of thinking is what allows facism and in fact asks for it. Sure facism is effective and efficient. The oil spill in the gulf is the result of greed. Our freedoms being taken away is the result of fear. You don't see the problem in this kind of thinking?

Here is a good question: Would you be willing to be motivated by anything other than greed or fear? Don't worry about other people, what would you like to use to guide your life? Greed and fear?

No. We work less then when we did as hunter gatherers. But in ancient agricultural societies people worked on an average of three hours a day. I lived in communities in Hawaii and Oregon where we had to work 40 hours a month in order to earn room and board and still have produce to sell to make a profit for the farm. That is ten hours a week and the rest of the time we could swim, hike, surf, gaze at the stars. But now, the super rich get all the time and us peons need to work 9-5 forty hours a week to support them. I am not saying that they don't do anything worthwhile, I am just saying.



I can't give up my air conditioner! That is funny. I hope you aren't serious. If you know about energy efficient housing you would know that there is a free way to cool your house that people have been using for thousands and thousands of years. There are actually a few ways. You can live quite comfortably AND give up your air conditioning. Even in the Mojave desert. There is other technology I find to be more important, like the internet, medical technology, mostly communication and media technology, and free energy technology.

Many years ago I found a hand-made flier blowing in the wind and I grabbed it and read it. It said "I have a great idea! Why don't we have all the machines do all the work while we all relax and play!" That is all it said.

I wasn't as serious with some of the examples as others. (: But I would be concerned about less medical technology and communication tools in an anarchist society.

Now, what would I be motivated if I could be motivated by anything? That is an interesting question... Hmm. Idealistically speaking, truth, probably.

That is very interesting about the agricultural societies/places you've been where you only had to work ten hours a week.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

I thought the point of "working" was to increase personal gains (at least materialistically and financially).

But if their "higher goals" are to work for the community as a whole and not themselves, then what is wrong with that? It is a voluntary action, if a bit naive.



How?

Nothing is wrong with it, it would be a nice. But it is impractical to expect it to work, is all.

Don't work, don't eat. That seems to be a good motivation.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

How?

As an example, the banks get a deposit of $100 made out of nothing from the federal reserve. The banks then loan out $10 each to eight people. These eight people deposit their $10 in the bank, now the bank is allowed to loan out $164. This goes on and on. Now there is not enough currency or cash in existence for everyone to pay back their loans. So somebody has to default on their loan, it is mathematics. So the bank gets to own their property, or their business. What has real value, credit or property? This is what happened with the real estate market collapse. Now the banks own a shit load of property but don't have the money to pay back the government who borrowed it from the federal reserve who made it out of nothing. So the government asks the federal reserve to give them trillions of new dollars in order to give to the banks. And the process goes on and on.

Or... If you have a lot of money, you create a business and hire people for less than a living wage to do the work for you and/or hire illegal immigrants. There is also the U.S. corporations who go to China and have Chinese kids who live at the factory to make sneakers for them at 10 cents a day. They charge the Chinese $1 to live and eat there. The families raise a debt and are FORCED to keep working. And not just in China, but all over Asia, Africa, the mid-east, Mexico, Central America.

Another example: A poor third world country is told that if they want to remain an independent country that they have to modernize and join the global market. They don't have any money so the World Bank offers them a loan and increases the interest rate after the loan is given. The country cannot pay it back so the country is forced to let in foreign big business and multi-national corporations and forced to sell their natural resources, their forests, their oil, whatever. Also the country is forced to import cheap commodities from multi-national corporations like cheap food that puts the local farmers out of business. If the country refuses, the leader gets assassinated or the country gets invaded. They get RAPED! And made even poorer and forced to remain third world.

I could go on and on... but...let me just say that:

The real revolution has to be against the corporations. These corporations (*Cough* BP *cough) don't give a damn about ANYTHING except profit. This is the example of motivation by PURE GREED! They don't give a damn if the world turns into a living hell, they don't care if everyone is enslaved in camps or if whole populations die off. They don't care. They don't care if their is no more rainforests. It is a soulless non-entity that has our humanity enslaved. The revolution is not against the U.S.A. or against any government. It is against the corporations and the World Banks that control the governments. We don't have democracy. We have a two party system where both parties are owned by the corporations. We only vote for the middle men. We don't get to vote for the corporations. Democracy is dead. There is no United States, there is no Britain, there is no France, etc...

And it is vitally important that we free ourselves from these corporations while we still can IF we still can. The way we do that is starve them of their money, boycott them. Maybe then the corporations will lose power (?) and we can vote in leaders who have not sold their souls and we can take back our military and our economy.

Our American laws don't protect us. Our membership in the World Trade Organization overrides our own constitutional laws. Any country who is a member of the World Trade Organization has given up their sovereignty. That is why I respect Ron Paul. He was all about getting American Sovereignty back and quitting the World Trade Organization and paying back our debts to the World Bank and abolishing the Federal Reserve. Of course he didn't have the campaign donations that Obama, Hillary, McCain, and Palin had.

Now we have the biggest ecological disaster in history happening right now with no solution in sight that will probably kill all life in the Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean waters because Obama allowed off shore drilling because he sold his soul to Big Oil and the Big Banks. And this is not the first time. Just a few weeks ago there was a giant oil spill at the Great Barrier Reef in Australia because an oil tanker crashed into it. Australia was made to allow cheaper oil be imported in (free trade! Yeah!) against their will and it crashed and destroyed large areas of the Great Barrier Reef. These are the ecosystems that are the foundation of life as we know it on this planet. We COULD switch to a different technology to run our cars and trucks and supply electricity, but guess who owns the patents and doesn't allow this technology out because it isn't as profitable. This is what happens when we allow ourselves to be motivated by greed rather than truth.

There is my rant. So, if you say that it is impractical to motivate humans with anything except greed and fear I say that greed and fear is destroying the Earth, and us with it. If you say that working for the community is naive or impractical I say that working for the community IS working for yourself. Poor people get roommates because they know that it is cheaper to live with people than to live in your own little castle. Helping each other is helping yourself. And there will be a time when someone needs your help, and when you will need someone else's help, and you will wish that there was a community for you to be a part of where everyone looks out for each other. We can't wait forever on our asses while we debate about the perfect revolution, the system we are in now is falling apart as we speak. Rome is falling. We need to network, reach out to our neighbors, create a local infrastructure to support your community when the system breaks.

Two years ago when I moved to North Carolina the oil pipelines broke because of a hurricane and the South here was out of gas for a few weeks. It was a disaster! That is how dependent we are. Grocery stores didn't have food, buses didn't run, people had to walk. The red cross was giving out food. A truck would come and bring a little gas to a gas station and it would be the only gas station in town with any gas, for 30 minutes. there was big lines at the gas stations and people were fighting and the police had to come and arrest people.

There was a blizzard here (which is very rare) last winter and the electricity went out for three days. I couldn't heat my house, my water didn't run, I couldn't cook, I had no light. I had to eat canned food in the dark that I was lucky to have. All because of dependence. I made up my mind to move back to Oregon where people are aware of this and are prepared and where there is community. It is already set up. The State of Jefferson will be alright.

"You may say I am a dreamer, but I'm not the only one, I hope some day you will join us, and the World will live as one." -Imagine by John Lennon

This is a forum of dreamers. C'mon, Imagine how good it could be and be a part of creating that.


EDIT: I just want to add that all the changes of lifestyle and everything that I propose will help make our country stronger and less dependent and help free our country from the stranglehold of the corporations. It is actually a very patriotic thing. I am not against the constitution or the idea our founding fathers had for our country. I am all for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and all creatures being created equal.

"it's gonna fuck up the economy! The economy that's FAKE anyways!"

Bravo, J, fucking bravo. I'm...well I'm not entirely sober, I won't taint my reply by making it now. I'll be back tomorrow or Saturday.

Originally Posted by spockman

I can also see the problem with thinking that we can overcome human nature and have a system that uses anything but greed (or fear) as a motivator to help society. It just isn’t practical and has never been done in a way that maintains itself for very long on a large scale, that I can think of.

Why do you say this? Or rather, what makes you think that human greed is a normal? As far as I can see, the greed that is running our economy is actually the greed of the minority of the minority of the minority. These greedy people are the tiniest fraction of the human race, but the most powerful-richest humans around.

I work right next to a store that leaves products unattended outside their doors. Anyone can come and grab something, and walk away with it. I see the employees of that store every day. In the past two years there hasn't been any thieving incident. What kind of people go to this store? Average people. Average people have no desire to steal, to take advantage of others, or come into a violent confrontation.

The people at the top of these corporate food chains who care more about profit then their own employees are NOT average people. (sometimes I don't even think they're human) The average person isn't even obsessed with having millions. Sure we all say "I want to be rich", but if you really wanted to be rich you wouldn't rest until it happens. Most people don't even know what to do with millions of dollars. Wasn't Jeff the only one here who planned it all out?

And if you look at the science, our evolution actually suggests just the opposite. That were not naturally greedy, that we have built in instincts to cooperate with other humans because we know our survival depends on the health and well being of the community.

You are right about one thing, it's never been done before, not on this scale All the more reason why I find this exciting. Why give up because something feels impossible? Why not try?

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

As an example, the banks get a deposit of $100 made out of nothing from the federal reserve. The banks then loan out $10 each to eight people. These eight people deposit their $10 in the bank, now the bank is allowed to loan out $164. This goes on and on. Now there is not enough currency or cash in existence for everyone to pay back their loans. So somebody has to default on their loan, it is mathematics. So the bank gets to own their property, or their business. What has real value, credit or property? This is what happened with the real estate market collapse. Now the banks own a shit load of property but don't have the money to pay back the government who borrowed it from the federal reserve who made it out of nothing. So the government asks the federal reserve to give them trillions of new dollars in order to give to the banks. And the process goes on and on.

This is more-so a failure of government meddling in the economy and financial sector and not "evil people enslaving the masses with their money."

Or... If you have a lot of money, you create a business and hire people for less than a living wage to do the work for you and/or hire illegal immigrants. There is also the U.S. corporations who go to China and have Chinese kids who live at the factory to make sneakers for them at 10 cents a day. They charge the Chinese $1 to live and eat there. The families raise a debt and are FORCED to keep working. And not just in China, but all over Asia, Africa, the mid-east, Mexico, Central America.

So by providing jobs to people who otherwise would not have one and would be starving on the streets, these companies are enslaving people? Did the workers not voluntarily accept the low wages? If they were thrown into involuntary servitude the case would be different, but that is not the case.

n a forthcoming article in the Journal of Labor Research Ben Powell and David Skarbek present the results of a survey of "sweatshops" in eleven Third World countries. In nine of the eleven countries, "sweatshop" wages in foreign factories located there were higher than the average. In Honduras, where almost half the working population lives on $2/day, "sweatshops" pay $13.10/day. "Sweatshop" wages are more than double the national average in Cambodia, Haiti, Nicaragua, and Honduras. The implication of this for all those naïve college students (and faculty) who have been duped into becoming anti-sweatshop protesters is that they should support and encourage more direct foreign investment in the Third World if they are at all concerned about the economic wellbeing of the people there.

It is never the workers in countries like Honduras who protest the existence of a new factory there built by a Nike or a General Motors. The people there benefit as consumers as well as workers, since there are more (and cheaper) consumer goods manufactured and sold in their country (as well as in other parts of the world). Capital investment of this sort is infinitely superior to the alternative – foreign aid – which always empowers the governmental recipients of the "aid," making things even worse for the private economies of "aid" recipients. Market-based capital investment is always far superior to politicized capital allocation. Moreover, if the foreign investment fails, the economic burden falls on the investors and stockholders, not the poor Third World country.

....

In a study of wages and working conditions in developing countries, economists Benjamin Powell and David Skarbek found that the textile sweatshops derided by rich westerners offer higher wages and better working conditions than the alternatives in very poor countries. People in developing countries need more sweatshops rather than fewer.

"That might be true," people might respond, "but can't multibillion-dollar multinational corporations afford to pay more? Isn't it unconscionable that CEOs are able to take home millions while workers in underdeveloped countries earn mere cents per hour?"

Is it sad? Yes. Is it unconscionable? No. Can companies "afford to pay more?" Again, the answer is no. Firms might be able to pay above-market wages in the short run, but in addition to operating in internationally competitive labor markets they also operate in internationally competitive capital markets and internationally competitive goods markets. Firms that sacrifice profits in order to pay higher wages will reduce their ability to earn profits, attract capital, and expand in the future. In the short run, we can improve standards of living for some people. In the long run, this illusory prosperity comes at the cost of increasing future poverty.

Another example: A poor third world country is told that if they want to remain an independent country that they have to modernize and join the global market. They don't have any money so the World Bank offers them a loan and increases the interest rate after the loan is given. The country cannot pay it back so the country is forced to let in foreign big business and multi-national corporations and forced to sell their natural resources, their forests, their oil, whatever. Also the country is forced to import cheap commodities from multi-national corporations like cheap food that puts the local farmers out of business. If the country refuses, the leader gets assassinated or the country gets invaded. They get RAPED! And made even poorer and forced to remain third world.

This is just a ridiculous attempt to create an example. True, a foreign government or "World Bank" may be exhibiting aggression toward a country via financial means, but is that a reason to attack the markets or money itself?

The real revolution has to be against the corporations. These corporations (*Cough* BP *cough) don't give a damn about ANYTHING except profit.

Well shit I would hope so. If companies didn't care about profits, there would be no companies. There would be no expansion. All of those poor third-world countries would be scarcely populated because everyone would starve due to a lack of jobs. Profits are a signal of success which allow companies to put more into their business and to expand and cut costs. Any businessman who takes all of his profits and buys a new yacht or house won't be in business for very long.

This is the example of motivation by PURE GREED!

Everyone acts in their own self-interest. I would hope some amount of greed is involved.

They don't give a damn if the world turns into a living hell, they don't care if everyone is enslaved in camps or if whole populations die off. They don't care. They don't care if their is no more rainforests.

If they don't care, what would be their incentive to run a business? If their goal is to simply fuck the world over then they would not be in business for very long. Businesses need peaceful times, they need free and acting individuals.

It is a soulless non-entity that has our humanity enslaved.

How can a non-entity have a soul anyway?

The revolution is not against the U.S.A. or against any government. It is against the corporations and the World Banks that control the governments.

It should be against the corporatist and mercantilist nature of government and not vague attacks on corporations and companies.

We don't have democracy.

Thank God for that.

We have a two party system where both parties are owned by the corporations. We only vote for the middle men. We don't get to vote for the corporations.

You see that stuff in your wallet? That's called money (despite being utterly useless pieces of paper). You use it to vote on corporations. Don't like them? Don't buy from them. If they are truly so awful and horrible start campaigning against them. But do some research first. Don't just attack them because they have money. Strike the root of the problem: government. They allow the corporations to have monopolies, and politicians frequently sell out to corporations to get money. Both are bad practices, but we cannot simply get rid of the market.

Democracy is dead.

It's about time.

There is no United States, there is no Britain, there is no France, etc...

Well at least you've realized that nations are non-entities. There is no acting entity called "France" or "Britain." Only individuals can act.

And it is vitally important that we free ourselves from these corporations while we still can IF we still can. The way we do that is starve them of their money, boycott them. Maybe then the corporations will lose power (?) and we can vote in leaders who have not sold their souls and we can take back our military and our economy.

Vote all you want. It won't change anything.

Our American laws don't protect us. Our membership in the World Trade Organization overrides our own constitutional laws. Any country who is a member of the World Trade Organization has given up their sovereignty. That is why I respect Ron Paul. He was all about getting American Sovereignty back and quitting the World Trade Organization and paying back our debts to the World Bank and abolishing the Federal Reserve. Of course he didn't have the campaign donations that Obama, Hillary, McCain, and Palin had.

I like Ron Paul. However, unlike you, he knows his economics. He does not attack corporations just because they are vaguely evil. He attacks the problem: government. He is an advocate of sovereignty in every area, especially financial.

Now we have the biggest ecological disaster in history happening right now with no solution in sight that will probably kill all life in the Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean waters because Obama allowed off shore drilling because he sold his soul to Big Oil and the Big Banks. And this is not the first time. Just a few weeks ago there was a giant oil spill at the Great Barrier Reef in Australia because an oil tanker crashed into it. Australia was made to allow cheaper oil be imported in (free trade! Yeah!) against their will and it crashed and destroyed large areas of the Great Barrier Reef. These are the ecosystems that are the foundation of life as we know it on this planet. We COULD switch to a different technology to run our cars and trucks and supply electricity, but guess who owns the patents and doesn't allow this technology out because it isn't as profitable. This is what happens when we allow ourselves to be motivated by greed rather than truth.

So attack the cause (government) and not the market.

There is my rant. So, if you say that it is impractical to motivate humans with anything except greed and fear I say that greed and fear is destroying the Earth, and us with it. If you say that working for the community is naive or impractical I say that working for the community IS working for yourself. Poor people get roommates because they know that it is cheaper to live with people than to live in your own little castle. Helping each other is helping yourself. And there will be a time when someone needs your help, and when you will need someone else's help, and you will wish that there was a community for you to be a part of where everyone looks out for each other. We can't wait forever on our asses while we debate about the perfect revolution, the system we are in now is falling apart as we speak. Rome is falling. We need to network, reach out to our neighbors, create a local infrastructure to support your community when the system breaks.

When I said working for the community was a bit naive I meant in the communistic sense, where people "own everything" and blah-blah-blah.

This is a forum of dreamers. C'mon, Imagine how good it could be and be a part of creating that.

Dreaming is good. Spouting crap is not.

EDIT: I just want to add that all the changes of lifestyle and everything that I propose will help make our country stronger and less dependent and help free our country from the stranglehold of the corporations. It is actually a very patriotic thing. I am not against the constitution or the idea our founding fathers had for our country. I am all for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and all creatures being created equal.

Well if you adhere to a vague and useless social contract...Have a blast.

Blueline, I don't think you understood Dannon's argument at all. It would be time consuming for Dannon to post all the links and resources, but his argument is not "people with money are evil", but how people are TREATED for the sake of money. And this is something that needs to be changed, but we can't change it if we buy into the lie that people should be treated less than human for profit.

Nor am I convinced that sweatshops are helping poor countries. As that argument isn't even considering what made these countries poor to begin with - environmental disaster is top on that list. Taking advantage of the poor and desperate, and saying its a good thing that we take advantage of their desperation, is sick. We call it modern slavery because in most of these cases, these people feel they have no other alternative.

We don't even need to bring in foreign countries or sweatshops though. We have human beings right now being treated less than human for profit, here in America. It's called a clerk working in a cashier. That's right, a perfectly 'normal' job that we encounter all the time. Now before you start arguing how this individual choose to work at this job, let's do a little background.

First off, lets look at the human being. Strip us away from our culture. Just look at the pure human being, as the human is. We are incredible creatures!! We have, all of us, an amazing capacity to imagine. Which is important in solving problems, and creating a better future for our children. We are curious. We love. We want to experience joy, happiness, and bliss. We just want to be who we are. Pretending to be someone you're not is suffering. The wild human is a human free to express them self without fear.

Look at these clerk jobs. Where a person has to stand in one position, all damn day long. That's physically and mentally exhausting. The body isn't built to be static. It's built to move. They are given very little things to do. The work is boring and repetitive. Clerks can't even speak what's on their mind, they have to pretend to be someone their not and pretend to be happy for the sake of customer service. It stresses us out, drives us crazy, makes us depressed or numb to life. These boring jobs, and all boring jobs, do not allow the human being to be what they are - human.

ONE DAY WE WILL DIE! Our lives aren't forever. Tomorrow that clerk could get in a car accident, and that's it. And what were they doing yesterday, and the day before that, and the day before? Ringing items up? Wow. What a waste of humanity. That human being, this amazing incredible creature that we, had so much more potential to be and do then - ringing sale items. That's a sick joke.

These jobs, that we have believed are normal and essential to human civilization, have taken away from us something very precious - our humanity.

As for their choice. Talk to these clerks. If they felt that right now they can have a better, funner, higher paying job, HELL YES they would take it. All clerks are clerks out of 'necessity'. The alternative in their minds is to be jobless. As for education, you would be surprised how many clerks actually have a higher education. The market has not been kind lately to graduating bachelors.

I agree that money is a transaction of energy. My complaint is not with money, but with capitalism placing profit before humans. We need to switch this model completely around. Not only do people come before profit, but humanity in all her great potential CREATES profit. We need to end meaningless jobs that takes a human and molds them into a mindless robot.

Instead the model that we need to adopt, is that by allowing a human to express his or her humanity, greater profit will be created then if you take that same human and squash their self-expression. And because we are diverse humans, there are plenty of humans out there who find that they can self-express themselves through hard work. Were not all lazy. Plenty of people actually do hard work as a hobby - home depot is counting on it.

This revolution is about all humans tapping into their personal potential. Great things will happen when we do this.

Originally Posted by juroara

Blueline, I don't think you understood Dannon's argument at all. It would be time consuming for Dannon to post all the links and resources, but his argument is not "people with money are evil", but how people are TREATED for the sake of money. And this is something that needs to be changed, but we can't change it if we buy into the lie that people should be treated less than human for profit.

What is profit?

Nor am I convinced that sweatshops are helping poor countries. As that argument isn't even considering what made these countries poor to begin with - environmental disaster is top on that list.

Poor government policies...lack of natural resources...

Taking advantage of the poor and desperate, and saying its a good thing that we take advantage of their desperation, is sick. We call it modern slavery because in most of these cases, these people feel they have no other alternative.

Who said that?

We don't even need to bring in foreign countries or sweatshops though. We have human beings right now being treated less than human for profit, here in America. It's called a clerk working in a cashier. That's right, a perfectly 'normal' job that we encounter all the time. Now before you start arguing how this individual choose to work at this job, let's do a little background.

First off, lets look at the human being. Strip us away from our culture. Just look at the pure human being, as the human is. We are incredible creatures!! We have, all of us, an amazing capacity to imagine. Which is important in solving problems, and creating a better future for our children. We are curious. We love. We want to experience joy, happiness, and bliss. We just want to be who we are. Pretending to be someone you're not is suffering. The wild human is a human free to express them self without fear.

Look at these clerk jobs. Where a person has to stand in one position, all damn day long. That's physically and mentally exhausting. The body isn't built to be static. It's built to move. They are given very little things to do. The work is boring and repetitive. Clerks can't even speak what's on their mind, they have to pretend to be someone their not and pretend to be happy for the sake of customer service. It stresses us out, drives us crazy, makes us depressed or numb to life. These boring jobs, and all boring jobs, do not allow the human being to be what they are - human.

What in God's name are you talking about? You speak of jobs as if they are some evil entity that enslaves people. A job is a process in which someone does something for someone else in order to be compensated. The person voluntarily enters this job. If he finds it boring, that is his or her own fault. Stop spewing such bullshit.

ONE DAY WE WILL DIE! Our lives aren't forever. Tomorrow that clerk could get in a car accident, and that's it. And what were they doing yesterday, and the day before that, and the day before? Ringing items up? Wow. What a waste of humanity. That human being, this amazing incredible creature that we, had so much more potential to be and do then - ringing sale items. That's a sick joke.

You are being caught up in frivolous emotional arguments and they are clouding your judgement.

These jobs, that we have believed are normal and essential to human civilization, have taken away from us something very precious - our humanity.

What defines our "humanity?"

As for their choice. Talk to these clerks. If they felt that right now they can have a better, funner, higher paying job, HELL YES they would take it. All clerks are clerks out of 'necessity'. The alternative in their minds is to be jobless. As for education, you would be surprised how many clerks actually have a higher education. The market has not been kind lately to graduating bachelors.

Right. If they had the opportunity to get a higher-paying job they would take it. It would be at the top of their preference scale. But most don't because they are not offered those opportunities.

The market has not been kind to educated people because the jobs they get tend to pay more. In the current economy, businesses cannot afford to pay such high wages. Do not pin this on the market. Pin it on the nature of government meddling.

I agree that money is a transaction of energy. My complaint is not with money, but with capitalism placing profit before humans. We need to switch this model completely around. Not only do people come before profit, but humanity in all her great potential CREATES profit.

Define capitalism.

Instead the model that we need to adopt, is that by allowing a human to express his or her humanity, greater profit will be created then if you take that same human and squash their self-expression. And because we are diverse humans, there are plenty of humans out there who find that they can self-express themselves through hard work. Were not all lazy. Plenty of people actually do hard work as a hobby - home depot is counting on it.

Don't pin this "loss of humanity" on the market process.

This thread isn't for you then. This thread is for people who have woken up and realize that all humans have a much greater potential than the current life we have created would allow us to be.

Originally Posted by juroara

This thread isn't for you then. This thread is for people who have woken up and realize that all humans have a much greater potential than the current life we have created would allow us to be.

This thread is merely for people who are so caught up in emotional argument that they fail to realize the repercussions of their ideas and just how separated from reality they are. Next thing I know, you'll all be calling for an immediate implementation of the Venus Project.

Edit - Oh and thanks for completely ignoring my post.

Originally Posted by juroara

This thread isn't for you then. This thread is for people who have woken up and realize that all humans have a much greater potential than the current life we have created would allow us to be.

Whoa, J, are you locking the thread to opposing opinions and critiques? Because it sure looks like it. If that is the way you think about your revolution, that only people who have 'woken up' are worthy of talking about it with, good luck. But it won't succeed. At all. Because you won't have an idea that is open to change. A non-adaptive idea is usually a bad one. And when you try to convince people of your points, people like Blueline will beat you, (verbally,) every time because you have failed to engage people like Blueline in the past. I see very little productivity that an come from this thread, now.

The reason some countries are poor, and remain poor no matter how much aid they receive, is because of corrupt politicians. Corrupt governments is the number one reason for countries being poor. It is also one of the reasons we need to keep an eye on our own government. We can end up a poor and broke country just as easily as anyone else, and we are clearly heading in that direction thanks to the US government.

This thread is merely for people who are so caught up in emotional argument

Yes emotions. Sorry. I'm only human.

Whoa, J, are you locking the thread to opposing opinions and critiques? Because it sure looks like it.

I am not here to compromise for the sake of popularity. Judge me, hate me, yell at me, insult me. Dreamviews has already given me it's worst. I'm sorry about what I said to blueline. But I do think people are ASLEEP. I'm not trying to upset anyone. Or maybe I was. I don't know. But I am HAPPY you CAN feel upset. It means you're still human. It means you're still emotional, whether or not you admit it. The great irony is, actually it's not ironic it's classic male psychology. When blueline accused me of being all emotional (heaven forbid) his post came off to me as angry and fearful, covered up by intellectualism. Which intellectuals do a lot, pretend they aren't being emotional. (as if, they're the biggest emos ever)

It was upsetting for me to hear from blueline, the suggestion that being emotional is wrong.

This idea that its wrong, stupid, unintelligent, illogical or irrational to have emotions when talking about things that really matter - is an idea stemming from history. Our history of denying, trampling and suppressing the feminine side of the human being, to suppressing the female gender all together. I have a emotions, and I'm grateful for it. It's much better than being an apathetic robot society tries to turn us into.

But it won't succeed. At all.

If this revolution doesn't succeed then our future is bleak, or worse, boring. This is not my revolution. I joined it. But I didn't create it (I just gave it a thread title). There is no logical argument I can ever make to convince blueline or others of the human potential. How can I? If you are afraid to get emotional, then you are afraid of something so fundamentally human. This denial of the emotional and feminine, is a major part of the reason why our economy is so far removed from our own humanity.

Who dreams of being a clerk at walmart?

NO ONE.

Who dreams of being happy?

EVERYONE!

Why doesn't our economy reflect our truest humanity? Because we have denied it!

Because you won't have an idea that is open to change.

I didn't intend this to be a debate thread. Which is why I actually ignored it for a while was so that people could just say what they feel. This is a share your own ideas of what this revolution means to you. This is a human revolution that is taking place at the individual level (FIRST), bringing back our humanity to everything that we as individuals do and create. Which will eventually create change in our economy and governments.

And when you try to convince people of your points

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. And the only important point I've made so far was our right to just be human. That's pretty much it. Our right to be human. Do I need to pull out a scientific research showing why we have a right to be human?

Intellectualism isn't going to help anyone here.

Either you're on the boat or your'e not. It's your choice. Oh yeah and the water is poisoned by oil.























Okay! I'm sorry for this derail and the confusion. But I want this thread to try to stay on track. So here are two videos that I really enjoyed from TED. It's about our education, and why it needs a revolution too!

http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinso...reativity.html


http://www.ted.com/talks/sir_ken_rob...evolution.html

Originally Posted by juroara

Yes emotions. Sorry. I'm only human.

I am not here to compromise for the sake of popularity. Judge me, hate me, yell at me, insult me. Dreamviews has already given me it's worst. I'm sorry about what I said to blueline. But I do think people are ASLEEP. I'm not trying to upset anyone. Or maybe I was. I don't know. But I am HAPPY you CAN feel upset. It means you're still human. It means you're still emotional, whether or not you admit it. The great irony is, actually it's not ironic it's classic male psychology. When blueline accused me of being all emotional (heaven forbid) his post came off to me as angry and fearful, covered up by intellectualism. Which intellectuals do a lot, pretend they aren't being emotional. (as if, they're the biggest emos ever)

It was upsetting for me to hear from blueline, the suggestion that being emotional is wrong.

You are getting caught up in the sensationalism of the case rather than examining the arguments logically. That is what I meant.

This idea that its wrong, stupid, unintelligent, illogical or irrational to have emotions when talking about things that really matter

Do not strawman me. I never said that, nor did anyone else.

If this revolution doesn't succeed then our future is bleak, or worse, boring. This is not my revolution. I joined it. But I didn't create it (I just gave it a thread title). There is no logical argument I can ever make to convince blueline or others of the human potential. How can I? If you are afraid to get emotional, then you are afraid of something so fundamentally human. This denial of the emotional and feminine, is a major part of the reason why our economy is so far removed from our own humanity.

Read what I first said.

Why doesn't our economy reflect our truest humanity? Because we have denied it!

You still have not defined what our "humanity" is. It is something I asked of you in my post which you ignored.

Which arguments do I need to examine? Because as far as I can see, you didn't understand my argument. Humanity. It's our truest self, our truest needs, our truest desires.

Did you watch the fun videos?