Thread: This topic is for Atheists only!(Jesus isn't my saviour,etc.

These really are not the arguments Brady is looking for I guess its difficult for us theists to bring up truly 'logical' arguments from an atheists point of view. (I do my best though)

As for that entire list of people syzygy gave, I dont think that will convince Brady because they are no more opinions then lets say yours or mine, extremely wise and enlightened or not. And because they are so many that doesnt they are right, now he could put down a list of famous scientists and the like. And it will be back to the old tug-o war between religion and science.

Not saying anybody is right or wrong here, Im just looking at it from Brady's point of view =)

And also, Brady. Just wondering, but you think love and compassion are a chemical then? Im not talking about love for your family friends and lovers. But for complete strangers, the people who hate you/bash you and so on and so forth. And why does this extreme 'compassion' lack with some people? Chemical imbalance perhaps? (with them or the people that do feel it?)

And I must say I enjoy debate aswell, I mean I dont think you are going to change my mind but its interesting for me to hear about what you think. Aswell as what the others in this debate think. As long as we all genuinely keep smiling at eachother eh

I'm not trying to convince anybody or argue anything. I only listed those people because there are many examples of people from different cultures and different points in time that have come to the same conclusions based on personal experience. Those who are determined enough to experience God for themselves will go down their own personal path and reach the same common ground that all the people I listed reached, nonduality, the source of all existance. Once you experience this for yourself, you look at the world from a totally new, unimaginable perspective. Now what all these people experience is beyond words, beyond the intellect, beyond logic, so if you are looking for God in an explanation, in an answer to an arguement, you are never going to find the answer, in fact you are only going further away. It is not something you can think of or reason to yourself because in order to understand it, you have to get rid of your idea of self that is trying to constantly figure it out. Once you get rid of the idea that you are separate from everything, you realize that everything is one and God is all around you, inside you, and you. Then there is no more subject looking for an object, the two are one. This experience does not happen in your mind, it is with your whole being, pure consciousness. This is why the Buddha wouldn't argue metaphysics because he knew you can't find the answer there, it has to be a personal search to find your true self.

So you can argue back and forth all you want, just as long as you know that you can never explain it, think of it, or convince anyone of it. It has to be a personal search, you can only convince yourself by actually experiencing it, nothing less. If you are interested then take a look at the people I mentioned, if not, then continue what you were doing, simple as that.

Originally posted by Yume
Point A: Whne I read the beginning of Genesis they way God created the world seemed like it fit all together. How God created the earth made it believable. No scientific explanation had believable ways the earth was created. The way that it is described in the Torah makes it seem like a divine being created the earth.

NOTE: When you say 'created the world', I'll assume you meant 'created the unverse\", because the world was formed by a little force we scientific people like to call gravity.

So, you're views on how the universe was created come from a 2000 year old fairy tale? Have you checked out the scientific explanations? No one has claimed to have proof of how the universe began, but there are some pretty intriguing explanations out there. From the Big Bang, to the Ekpyrotic model. Surely these theories, supported by various empirical observations, should have some merit. Also, why do you assume that the universe had a beginning?

Originally posted by Yume
Point B: \"It is the most unhealthy meat out there that humans intake\". You could eat healthier meats instead of eating pork. It creates the worst problems. You are screwing yourself over when you eat it

I'm not really here to argue about which meat to eat. When you tell me that pork is the most unhealthy meat that humans intake, I would tend to agree. But that's not going to stop me from eating it, you wouldn't believe the crap that our bodies are designed to digest. Most animals would die quickly if their diets contained the same percentage of cholesterol and saturated fats as the average human. Bacon tastes good, sausage tastes good, pork chops taste good.

Originally posted by Yume+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Yume)</div>

Point C: Religion has many facts. You just haven't seem to encounter any. There are facts every day that religion can be proved. I think that you should go and seek those out on your own. It isn't set on a silver platter for you. If you have never found a fact proving religion correct it shows you are not very open-minded and don't look far from the tree.[/b]

Please, I'm begging you. Help me get started down the right path. Enlighten me with one fact supporting the existence of some Supreme Being.

Originally posted by Yume+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Yume)</div>

As for your answer just check out your local morgue.[/b]

You missed this part:
<!--QuoteBegin-I@
And if you were to cut open someone's skull and look inside, what would you see? A brain of course, the homunculi inside your head can alter what you percieve to protect the identity of all green humonculi.

<!--QuoteBegin-I
Am I missing something here? YOU HAVE OPINIONS WITH NO \"REAL\" REASONS TO SUPPORT THEM AND HOLD THEM AS VALID.

Originally posted by Yume+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Yume)</div>

D: Give me an example please.[/b]

You said earlier that you believe what you read in Genesis because it 'seems to fit together'. Call me a liar, but it 'seems' to me that that's simply an opinion (which you have stated after codemning all opinions), not a fact of any sort.

Originally posted by syzygy@
bradybaker, there are many people who have directly experienced God, Allah, Ultimate Reality, Tao, Buddha-nature, whatever you want to call it in different cultures and different times and have explained the same experience. The Indian philosophers, the Christian mystics, the enlightened Zen masters, Islamic Sufis, Buddhas, shamans, many more. If you are interested, check out any of the following people: Mesiter Eckhart, D.T. Suzuki, Suhrawardi, Emmanuel Swedenborg, Gautama Buddha, Jesus Christ, William Law, Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Zoroaster, Jalal-uddin Rumi, Philo, Huang-Po, Plotinus, the list could go on.

Hearsay and ancient anecdotes are no substitution for logic and empirical evidence.

<!--QuoteBegin-Lucius
I guess its difficult for us theists to bring up truly 'logical' arguments

Agreed. I would change the word \"difficult\" to \"impossible\" though. And therein lies the problem.

Originally posted by Lucius
And also, Brady. Just wondering, but you think love and compassion are a chemical then? Im not talking about love for your family friends and lovers. But for complete strangers, the people who hate you/bash you and so on and so forth. And why does this extreme 'compassion' lack with some people? Chemical imbalance perhaps? (with them or the people that do feel it?)

Well I would'nt exactly describe it as a 'chemical', but more of an evolved behaviour. I'll try and explain..

Eons ago, in the transition between single celled and multi-celled organisms, a species of single-celled organism (choanoflagellates) emerged that were able to work together to maximize their chances of survival. They basically floated around in clumps in the water and this gave them several advantages over other organisms. They were now immune to the other larger single-celled organisms that fed on them because of their larger, collective size and they could catch and devour larger prey much more easily. This meant more food for everyone on a more consistent basis. Therefore, the genes that controlled such behaviour were more likely to be passed on to the next generation. These cooperative single-celled celled organisms eventually evolved into the first multi-celled animal. The sea-sponge. (Yes, your great, great, great, great, great......., great, great grandfather was a sea sponge) The genetic code for 'cooperation' was passed on for countless generations (some species would show more cooperative tendencies than others of course).

So, when the first homo sapien was born, it already had millions of years of natural selection contained in its genetic code and was predisposed to cooperation. It's not hard to see how such a behavioral instinct could evolve (this evolution would be driven largely by cultural pressures) into the complex behaviours seen today as love, compassion, friendliness and the like.

I hope that makes a little sense...

As for why some people lack compassion and hate others could be explained through chemical imbalance, but it is more likely that you fail to understand the complexity of the social and physical dynamics that the average human experiences. Human behaviour is not only influenced by the genetics that guide one to be "loving", but also by the genetics that guide one to be afraid, to succeed (in any sense of the word), to pass on their genetic material, etc. Also, relevant past experiences and social upbringing have an obviously large impact on behaviour.

I think that the problem lies in the fact that people love simple solutions. If the answer can't be explained to them in a few sentences, they just tune it out and stop listening (this is also probably an evolved behavior). It's obviously much easier to understand love if it is a "spiritual force" or "divine gift" rather than looking at it as the complex intersection of genetics, experience and survival instinct.

Originally posted by bradybaker
Hearsay and ancient anecdotes are no substitution for logic and empirical evidence.

Well, it is hard to hit a target when you have no idea what it looks like.

I specifically stated that because of what was said in Genesis about the creation of the earth that I see it more likely. The reasons are in the bible. God created water and etc. Give me a good non-religious example of how the earth was created and give reasons to back it up. That is what Genesis does. It gives reasons that make sense how the earth was made unlike scientific explanations. I have reason behind my opinion.

I've said this before, but Extended Discussion, Philosphy and Beyond Dreaming remind me of a sort of hungry wolves' den. You go in to state your opinon and you're about to leave, but then they jump on you and devour you and you see holes in your logic so you run away and never come back because you don't want to look stupid again.

Originally posted by Kaniaz+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kaniaz)</div>

I've said this before, but Extended Discussion, Philosphy and Beyond Dreaming remind me of a sort of hungry wolves' den. You go in to state your opinon and you're about to leave, but then they jump on you and devour you and you see holes in your logic so you run away and never come back because you don't want to look stupid again.[/b]

<!--QuoteBegin-bradybaker
Please, I'm begging you. Help me get started down the right path. Enlighten me with one fact supporting the existence of some Supreme Being.

lol ah....some good laughs....

Originally posted by nightowl

I used to care, seriously. But the moment that it \"clicked\" with me that there's no afterlife (in my opinion), I stopped caring about living my life with respect to something I don't even believe in.

I at first worried about it to when i was younger. It sorta bothered me that every action i did was to be judged upon my death. I dunno how, but i grew questionative and i came to the conclusion that people made up the idea of heaven just so that they can feel comfort that there is something after death and possibly feel more important. I just don't care anymore. Like what you said. \"I find so much more satisfaction and contentment now in just believing in myself. And believing that being kind to all living things in general attracts more kindness. I need nothing more.\" I feel much more complete when i help someone or be kind to a person than going to church on a sunday morning and listening to my priest about damnation and salvation. I just didn't like it how I HAD to worship, pray, go to church, and listen to a thousand year old book...and for what? For a guy whose existence can't be proven and sends everyone to hell who doesn't believe in him regardless that everyone is his child? Self-reliance and confidence is pretty much all i need to be satisfied with myself and how i live my life.

That's how it was for me too. I believed in God until I was about 14 or 15 and then asked myself, why? And I realized that it was only because it was what I had been told to believe and what made me feel good. It took me a while to actually admit that I didn't believe in God because it was a bit frightening at first (especially when you live in a 95% Catholic town). But now I think that I'm much more happy in life than I ever could've been before. [/b]

Same. Im 16, going onto 17 and at about that age i started really questioning everything. I, like you, haven been told what to believe without anyone asking me what I believe. My parents pushed their beliefs on me and still do. They don't know that i dont believe in god and if they found out, who knows what drastic measures they would inflict on me. Its obvious they don't like or accept any other religion to. I suppose I am happier now
[/b]

I think I stopped believing when I was 14, thx to biology. My parents don't know that I don't believe, and i'm still forced to go to church every week, not without complaining of course

EDIT: Sorry, I think i'm like two pages too late

im a former atheist and there is no way in hell that the god of israel does not exist. all of the atheist out there are either searching or subconciencly dont want to be in heaven. but i tell you this now that non-existence is not available. and dont you think that living even if its the worst life on earth is better than no life at all? this is how loving god is. he provides a place even for the ones that dont want to be with him.

all of the atheist out there are either searching or subconciencly dont want to be in heaven[/b]

i don't want to sound like an ass, but don't generalize unless you've met every atheist

and dont you think that living even if its the worst life on earth is better than no life at all?[/b]

who said here that death is better than life? Im pretty sure no one did unless you're just throwing that in the air...or are you making another point?

Originally posted by syzygy+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(syzygy)</div>

Well, it is hard to hit a target when you have no idea what it looks like.[/b]

Agreed. But that doesn't mean you should stop trying.

Originally posted by Yume@
I specifically stated that because of what was said in Genesis about the creation of the earth that I see it more likely. The reasons are in the bible. God created water and etc. Give me a good non-religious example of how the earth was created and give reasons to back it up. That is what Genesis does. It gives reasons that make sense how the earth was made unlike scientific explanations. I have reason behind my opinion.

If that's the best response you can come up with, I think this agrument is over.

<!--QuoteBegin-wizard
all of the atheist out there are either searching or subconciencly dont want to be in heaven.

All of the theists out there are subconsciously scared shitless of their own death and need ancient fairy tales to comfort them.

brady, you rule.

Amen.

Originally posted by Kaniaz+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kaniaz)</div>

brady, you rule.[/b]

<!--QuoteBegin-OpheliaBlue
Amen.

Geez? Reading all those pages has made me barf. Damn I wish we all just knew the truth of things. I personally want to debate this: How can anyone say that atheism is logically the correct choice? It is a belief as well, is it not (help me out if I'm wrong.) But wasn't it defined earlier as: one who believes that there is no deity. If atheists are believing in something, then how is that logical? Can you prove to me that the world was created by physical means?> (no you have theories, based on empirical evidence <thats evidence based on experience and observation>)

As far as I'm concerned, Logically, we should all be agnostics: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god.

Simply because all we're debating here is opinions, theories, and unknowns.

Can't we just simply say, " I DON'T KNOW! " we can be sure of that. Fact: None of us can prove or logically state any of these beliefs as true in any one religion or perspective and until that somehow happens or doesn't happen, we should logically see that we don't know anything (in how we exist)... it's all just a belief, which is illogical to assume is correct no matter what.

And thats not 'in my opinion' its logical... is it not? Please correct me if i'm wrong, thats what debatings for, to see flaws in our thought process.

I'm personally Agnostic, believing in things and saying their absolutely true, to me is... illogical.

-Daniel

P.S. Brady, I like the way you think, Amen.

Originally posted by OpheliaBlue
Amen.

How very ironic

Originally posted by Joseph_Stalin+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Joseph_Stalin)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-OpheliaBlue

Amen.

How very ironic [/b]

Hah!

Originally posted by bradybakererererererer+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bradybakererererererer)</div>

Theists - cannot come up with one logical argument to support their beliefs. All they can do is attempt to poke holes in the atheist's theory by saying things like:

Originally posted by dream&#045;scaper@
I don't care what you believe. Whatever it is, it is your religion.

<!--QuoteBegin-dream&#045;scaper

I can't make any kind of real decision if she is or isn't until I experience and find out for myself.

[/b]

bradybakererererererer, I don't recall every claiming to be a theist. Actually I don't recall ever claiming to be anything. Nor do I recall ever attempting to poke holes in anything. But perhaps those memories have escaped me. If you have taken them, I shall like them back, your supreme erererererererer (I heard you may have sold them to CTerererererer, in which case, I'm still going to need them back)

Originally posted by bradybaker+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bradybaker)</div>

Originally posted by syzygy+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(syzygy)

Well, it is hard to hit a target when you have no idea what it looks like.[/b]

Agreed. But that doesn't mean you should stop trying.

<!--QuoteBegin-Yume@
I specifically stated that because of what was said in Genesis about the creation of the earth that I see it more likely. The reasons are in the bible. God created water and etc. Give me a good non-religious example of how the earth was created and give reasons to back it up. That is what Genesis does. It gives reasons that make sense how the earth was made unlike scientific explanations. I have reason behind my opinion.

If that's the best response you can come up with, I think this agrument is over.

<!--QuoteBegin-wizard
all of the atheist out there are either searching or subconciencly dont want to be in heaven.

All of the theists out there are subconsciously scared shitless of their own death and need ancient fairy tales to comfort them.[/b][/quote]Since you have provided no proven examples of your own it is over. You have only said I think I am right and you aren't. That is sad.

Originally posted by bradybaker+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bradybaker)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-syzygy

Well, it is hard to hit a target when you have no idea what it looks like.

Agreed. But that doesn't mean you should stop trying.[/b]

Agreed. So why do you stop yourself at logic and empirical evidence? Those are only parts.
If you dismiss the list of people I gave as \"hearsay and ancient anecdotes\" then you miss the point (target).

Originally posted by bradybaker+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bradybaker)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-wizard

all of the atheist out there are either searching or subconciencly dont want to be in heaven.

All of the theists out there are subconsciously scared shitless of their own death and need ancient fairy tales to comfort them.[/b]

If there is no death, how can you be scared of it? But the point is that the "ancient fairy tales" are not so ancient, but happening right now.

Originally posted by dream&#045;scapey+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dream&#045;scapey)</div>

bradybakererererererer, I don't recall every claiming to be a theist. Actually I don't recall ever claiming to be anything. Nor do I recall ever attempting to poke holes in anything. But perhaps those memories have escaped me. If you have taken them, I shall like them back, your supreme erererererererer Smile (I heard you may have sold them to CTerererererer, in which case, I'm still going to need them back)[/b]

Regardless of whether or not you're a theist, the statements you made are consistent with ones that theists come up with in debates with atheists.

Oh, and I did steal your memories, but I didn't sell them yet. I think I'll put em up on ebay soon.

<!--QuoteBegin-Yume
Since you have provided no proven examples of your own it is over. You have only said I think I am right and you aren't. That is sad.

YOU'VE CHOSEN TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING THAT IS UNFALSIFIABLE AND NOW DEMAND FACTS TO CHANGE THAT BELIEF. YOU ARE NUTS.

You have to understand that no matter what point that an atheist can bring to the table, the determined theist can just say \"God did it.\" without any evidence, logic, or experience to back up that claim. And that's why the whole notion of a Supreme Being is so utterly stupid.
At least most other theists acknowledge that point and just call it 'faith'.

Other examples of unfalsifiable arguments: green homunculi, unicorns and sasquatches, giant pink invisible bunnies, flying polkadot zebras that only exist when no one is looking, etc.

Originally posted by syzygy
If there is no death, how can you be scared of it? But the point is that the \"ancient fairy tales\" are not so ancient, but happening right now.

It's called denial, the easiest way to deal with something stressful is to deny its existence all together. We have evolved to hold spiritual beliefs to deal with the thought of our own death (check out a book called \"The God Part of the Brain\"). The fairy tales, ancient or current (inluding the list of people you mentioned), are a result of this denial and evolution.

Originally posted by Syntex
Geez? Reading all those pages has made me barf. Damn I wish we all just knew the truth of things. I personally want to debate this: How can anyone say that atheism is logically the correct choice? It is a belief as well, is it not (help me out if I'm wrong.) But wasn't it defined earlier as: one who believes that there is no deity. If atheists are believing in something, then how is that logical? Can you prove to me that the world was created by physical means?> (no you have theories, based on empirical evidence <thats evidence based on experience and observation>)

As far as I'm concerned, Logically, we should all be agnostics: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god.

Simply because all we're debating here is opinions, theories, and unknowns.

Can't we just simply say, \" I DON'T KNOW! \" we can be sure of that. Fact: None of us can prove or logically state any of these beliefs as true in any one religion or perspective and until that somehow happens or doesn't happen, we should logically see that we don't know anything (in how we exist)... it's all just a belief, which is illogical to assume is correct no matter what.

And thats not 'in my opinion' its logical... is it not? Please correct me if i'm wrong, thats what debatings for, to see flaws in our thought process.

I'm personally Agnostic, believing in things and saying their absolutely true, to me is... illogical.

-Daniel

P.S. Brady, I like the way you think, Amen.

I thoroughly acknowledge the possibility that God could exist and that I could end up burning in hell for all eternity. I also acknowledge the possibility that unicorns, sasquatches, invisible pink bunnies and green homunculi exist. The tooth fairy and easter bunny? Sure, why not?

But come on, there are countless unfalsifiable arguments that could possibly explain how the universe was created and humanity has settled on the ones that:
a) provide us the greatest possible reward (eternal happiness)
B) can be used as tools to control the masses (extreme negative consequences for misbehaving)
c) can justify destructive behaviour (the Crusades, the Inquisitions, suicide bombings, human sacrifice)
d) let us skip out on our own death (afterlife/eternal soul)

It seems to me that its a game of probability. Sure it's possible for a giant magic guy in the sky to exist, but its infinitely more probable that he does not.

Questions (that I'm sure all theists will be able to come up with answers to):
Why did God create a ginormous universe just for us, and make it physically impossible to explore it?
Why does God favor humans over fish? or goats? or hydrogen? or Coke?
How can God be all-knowing and all-powerful at the same time? (think before you answer)
How can God be all-powerful and all-loving at the same time?

If God does exist, large parts of these fields of study would have to be partly or wholly incorrect: evolutionary biology, cosmology, physics, palaeontology, archaeology, historical geology, zoology, botany, and biogeography, plus much of early human history.

BradyBaker wrote:

But come on, there are countless unfalsifiable arguments that could possibly explain how the universe was created and humanity has settled on the ones that:
a) provide us the greatest possible reward (eternal happiness)
B) can be used as tools to control the masses (extreme negative consequences for misbehaving)
c) can justify destructive behaviour (the Crusades, the Inquisitions, suicide bombings, human sacrifice)
d) let us skip out on our own death (afterlife/eternal soul)

It seems to me that its a game of probability. Sure it's possible for a giant magic guy in the sky to exist, but its infinitely more probable that he does not. [/b]

Sorry to cut-in mid debate but the above statement is probably the best point made so far on this thread. I don't like to interject in debates unless I have something productive to add, but so far BradyBaker has been arguing my opinion on the matter quite well...kudos.

Also, for all those reading along here is a link to a very thought provoking and informative religious debate site. http://www.debatingchristianity.com/forum/index.php

Originally posted by bradybakery
Regardless of whether or not you're a theist, the statements you made are consistent with ones that theists come up with in debates with atheists.

That was the part of what you were saying that made no sense. How exactly are statements like \"whether god does or does not exist is irrelevant,\" \"you cannot know if god does or does not exist,\" and \"to say undeniably whether god does or does not exist is a fetter\" consistent with statements a theist would make? A theist would either say \"god does exist\" or \"god does not exist.\" (don't try to fool yourself that atheism is not a theism; it is still a form of theism). I have not said any theist statements anywhere. The statements I have made do not concern themselves with theism of any kind. If they were to be categorized as anything, it would be in the realm of agnostic.

Originally posted by bradybakery
Oh, and I did steal your memories, but I didn't sell them yet. I think I'll put em up on ebay soon.

Let me know how much you get mr. bakery. I've got a few I'm not currently using and could use some extra cash

when i read biographies of great people (albert einstein, every single one of the presidents, hell just about every great-rightious-person) they all claim some religion involving god. now correct me if im wrong but are all of you calling these great men idiots?