Thread: Rem=dream?

most of the time you only dream in REM, but sometimes you dream during the other stages of sleep.

As to what causes dreams it is said that the brain releases a chemical called DMT (Dimenthyltryptamine) which is a hallucinogen. And the brain releases the most DMT during REM sleep or right before death.

You only dream during REM sleep and the transitory stages to and from REM sleep. During REM sleep, memories elicit percpetual sensations of memories in a sequential order. The significance of elicitation and the sequences are highly debated. This is facilitated by the neurotransmitter serotonin which is kept at a relatively low production. During REM sleep, you should have almost no monoamine neurotransmitter production which is what causes the paralysis.

I will be glad to enlighten any further questions..

~

Your dreams are most potent and frequent, during REM, but you can "dream" in any state from hypnogogia (sporadic, internal, sensory experience while falling asleep) and hypnopompia (sporadic, internal, sensory experience while waking up).

The patient reported no dreams even when woken in the midst of rapid eye movement (REM) sleep, which is normally associated with dreaming. But to the researchers' surprise, her sleep pattern was perfectly normal.[/b]

She used to experience 3 to 4 dreams per week, says Claudio Bassetti, now of University Hospital Zurich in Switzerland, who studied the woman. After the stroke, she had no dreams for a whole year, yet her sleep and mental functions appeared otherwise unaffected.
[/b]

This shows that REM sleep and dreaming do not always go hand in hand, says Bassetti. The occipital lobe, which was damaged by the woman's stroke, is likely to play an important role in dreaming
[/b]

http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=1141
read this article it basically tells you that rem has nothing to do with dreams.

So REM may simply bring the brain back from deep sleep periodically to help us wake up if we need to, says Horne.

But the function may be different in newborns, who typically spend around 8 hours per day in REM sleep. Here, the sleep pattern may be related to brain development.
[/b]

you proberly dream all night but cant remeber it and the end stages of sleep where you can easily wake up to remeber it.

see the woman went through rem stages but still did not dream. so theirfore rem does not equal dream or the woman would have dreamt once during a year. dreaming is proberly caused by your occipital lobe not DMT or the woman would have dreamt atleast once during the year.

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=1141
read this article it basically tells you that rem has nothing to do with dreams.
you proberly dream all night but cant remeber it and the end stages of sleep where you can easily wake up to remeber it.
[/b]

Right. If we define dreams as being the recollection of perceptions and imagery during consciousness, then you cannot dream in other stages of sleep. I apologize for my equivocation.

This is fringing on the famous proverb, "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it make a sound, does it?"

Let us not pursue that debate...

The fact is - you are going to remember your dreams more frequently from the REM period.

~

Right. If we define dreams as being the recollection of perceptions and imagery during consciousness, then you cannot dream in other stages of sleep. I apologize for my equivocation.

This is fringing on the famous proverb, "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it make a sound, does it?"

Let us not pursue that debate...

The fact is - you are going to remember your dreams more frequently from the REM period.[/b]

did you even read the stupid article it say a woman going through rem period does not dream. dreams is part of your occipital lobe. that no true you wake up during rem sleep that why you remeber it. i really dont understand the first comment it say that dream start off in the occiptal lobe or visual part of your brain and has very strong proof from a stroke patient it does. onus seriously you could proberly see the evidence says that a person has a stroke yes then it damages occipital lobe yes the person cant dream anymore theirfore dreams most come from visual part of your brain called occipital lobe. the part of the brain that got damage is called the right inferior gyrus which is closy related to location and people faces.
this is really dumb what is dreams define as then magick and i dont know why perception and imagery=dreams= no dreams during state your. the occipital lobe does not change much during sleep just get more active this does not depend on any other state during sleep. see dreams our one thing sleep state our another this research proves it. pleese just read the comment of the neurologist i think they would know a bit more then you in this subject.

ok this is guna sound incredibly dumb and diminish my status .. but what is REM?

~Raven~

ooh! rapid eye movement.. i get it now............................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....................that makes no sense

~Raven~

ok this is guna sound incredibly dumb and diminish my status .. but what is REM?[/b]

it when EEG reads fast pattarn and NREM is when your EEG read slow pattarn it has nothing to do with dreaming so dont worry about that rubbish.
http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=1141

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

it when EEG reads fast pattarn and NREM is when your EEG read slow pattarn it has nothing to do with dreaming so dont worry about that rubbish.
http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=1141
[/b]

I belive you yesterday I went to sleep at seven for ten minutes and remembered a dream so does that mean I can wild at the begining of the night?

I belive you yesterday I went to sleep at seven for ten minutes and remembered a dream so does that mean I can wild at the begining of the night? [/b]

yes but then you would proberly need a technique that is beyound conventional WILD.

I recently read a wonderful book by Jane Roberts as she channelled a 'non-physical entity' named Seth. The book is called, "Seth, Dreams and Projections of Consciousness." In this book Seth says that we are dreaming ALL THE TIME and that our existence "there" is as real and significant as ours "here". On the topic of R.E.M. he says that this is simply a period when our two 'personalities' come closest, apparently for the purpose of checking on each other and maintaining continuity throughout our entire being. This brings a real freshness to reoccuring locations and characters I think, as they become less a pure construction of the "mind" and more a location or personality that the "subconscious" overlays various hallucinations in proportion to it's content and concerns.

I have read many channelled works and I believe that in the near future Channelling/Mediumship will become a major and common source of previously unattainable knowledge (to the lay-person). When reading these works I often get what i call, "the Tingle of Truth". I got them all through "Conversations with God" (as I am sure anyone who has read it did also) and many others. It's interesting because the tingles all correlate with eachother and never contradict! I got these tingles during this Seth book and no "scientist" can convince me of the "truth" behind R.E.M. if they say that it is the ONLY time we dream.

Rob.

P.S. If anyone is interested in Channeling, I first recommend the "Conversations with God" series. Then, a wonderful "how to" book by Orin and DaBen (the entities- can't remember the authors... "Sanaya?"). These entities are dedicated to helping people step up their "vibrational frequencies" in order to open to channelling, whether it be a guide, an angel, relative or other. Very, very exciting!

I recently read a wonderful book by Jane Roberts as she channelled a 'non-physical entity' named Seth. The book is called, "Seth, Dreams and Projections of Consciousness." In this book Seth says that we are dreaming ALL THE TIME and that our existence "there" is as real and significant as ours "here". On the topic of R.E.M. he says that this is simply a period when our two 'personalities' come closest, apparently for the purpose of checking on each other and maintaining continuity throughout our entire being. This brings a real freshness to reoccuring locations and characters I think, as they become less a pure construction of the "mind" and more a location or personality that the "subconscious" overlays various hallucinations in proportion to it's content and concerns.[/b]

the right forum this should have been posted in beyound dreaming. since you did post here i like to say daen everything you said in the post is wrong. well a bigger point is if you dont follow science or neurology then your stuck with views similar to daen assumption because you read it on this forum or in a stupid lucid dreaming book. off topic daen this not a insult but why do you believe somebody who says their can channel sprits but you cant believe some off the greatest mind like Einstien, Newton, Leonardo da vinchi because for somebody who say their interested in the universe i would trust a genius or someone with proof.

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

did you even read the stupid article it say a woman going through rem period does not dream. dreams is part of your occipital lobe. that no true you wake up during rem sleep that why you remeber it. i really dont understand the first comment it say that dream start off in the occiptal lobe or visual part of your brain and has very strong proof from a stroke patient it does. onus seriously you could proberly see the evidence says that a person has a stroke yes then it damages occipital lobe yes the person cant dream anymore theirfore dreams most come from visual part of your brain called occipital lobe. the part of the brain that got damage is called the right inferior gyrus which is closy related to location and people faces.
this is really dumb what is dreams define as then magick and i dont know why perception and imagery=dreams= no dreams during state your. the occipital lobe does not change much during sleep just get more active this does not depend on any other state during sleep. see dreams our one thing sleep state our another this research proves it. pleese just read the comment of the neurologist i think they would know a bit more then you in this subject.
[/b]

Firstly, the link is broken for me - thus why I specifically tried to make the premiss that "if you define dreams as the recollection of sensations during unconsciousness..." in order for my following conclusion to make sense.

Although this is completely irrelevant from what I was saying and apologizing for, I would like you to know that I am saying dreaming is the recollection of the events experience in sleep - from any stage of sleep.

Furthermore, there is a plethora of evidence I can wield on the forum here for you to prove that dreams are not solely functioned by the occipital lobe. In fact, if any part of the brain, it would be the hypothalamus in conjunction with several other parts (primarily the hippocampus and the reticular activation system). I am not claiming to know anything in this subject but that I can replicate what I have read from various neuroscience journals.

yes the person cant dream anymore theirfore dreams most come from visual part of your brain called occipital lobe. the part of the brain that got damage is called the right inferior gyrus which is closy related to location and people faces. [/b]

This is entirely un-true. With this logic we can surmise that, if a person does not have vision, they can not dream. Also, why do you mention the right inferior gyrus? Which is actually more associated and elicited during laughter and jubilation. The sensation of people's faces is facilitated by the somatosensory cortex.

I will leave this for now - however, if you would like me to reference my points in order to allow you to see them for yourself, please let me know. Otherwise, I would like to politely ask that, as I would not attack your competence, I would like it if you do not attack my competence on the subject as I consider it irrelevant (by that I mean that my personal knowledge of the subject means nothing to the points I am trying to convey and is digressive).

I hope I have been enlightening.

~

Firstly, the link is broken for me - thus why I specifically tried to make the premiss that "if you define dreams as the recollection of sensations during unconsciousness..." in order for my following conclusion to make sense.

Although this is completely irrelevant from what I was saying and apologizing for, I would like you to know that I am saying dreaming is the recollection of the events experience in sleep - from any stage of sleep.

Furthermore, there is a plethora of evidence I can wield on the forum here for you to prove that dreams are not solely functioned by the occipital lobe. In fact, if any part of the brain, it would be the hypothalamus in conjunction with several other parts (primarily the hippocampus and the reticular activation system). I am not claiming to know anything in this subject but that I can replicate what I have read from various neuroscience journals. [/b]

type in woman stroke sleep no dreams in google

The 73-year-old patient was admitted to hospital after a stroke disrupted blood flow to an area at the back of her brain, called the occipital lobe. At first, her symptoms were not unusual - she lost some vision and was weak on one side of the body. But as the initial problems faded a few days later, a new symptom emerged: the woman had stopped dreaming. Her story is recorded in the Annals of Neurology.[/b]

you got to admit this put massive hole in your assumption that dreams come from hypothalamus because that was left normal the only bit of brain damaged was occiptial lobe or visual cortex. you have to listen to evidence not your own assumption and if you bring up memory thing the woman had perfect memory after stroke it was tested. the point is she lost the abillity to dream when she damage her occiptal lobe only the rest of her brain ok and then straight after can not dream even a moron could deduce that occipital lobe produces dreams. dreaming is the recolletion of event experience as sleep as opposed to what dreaming is the recollection of thought, feeling, elephant in what when your awake no offense but what you say sound silly it does not add to your defense it like seeing a blue bus and saying that blue. well you can look at the evidence and go with your assumption or the real hard evidence.

This is entirely un-true. With this logic we can surmise that, if a person does not have vision, they can not dream. Also, why do you mention the right inferior gyrus? Which is actually more associated and elicited during laughter and jubilation. The sensation of people's faces is facilitated by the somatosensory cortex.

I will leave this for now - however, if you would like me to reference my points in order to allow you to see them for yourself, please let me know. Otherwise, I would like to politely ask that, as I would not attack your competence, I would like it if you do not attack my competence on the subject as I consider it irrelevant (by that I mean that my personal knowledge of the subject means nothing to the points I am trying to convey and is digressive).

I hope I have been enlightening.[/b]

one your occiptial lobe handle language to or you could not read i could get scientific paper of a study of reading and countless time the occipital lobe and right gyrus our used their also a theory that say dyslexia comes from some going wrong between both and music does get handle to i can get a study of musician who show that the right gyrus is very active when they play and speech too. you have not heard of CAW or something that a region neer the right gyrus get damaged and your brain has hard time reconqizing people and location i.e. you think your home is a replicate of something and your brother your sister.

Somatosensory system
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
The somatosensory system is the sensory system of somatic sensation.

Somatic sensation consists of the various sensory receptors that trigger the experiences labelled as touch or pressure, the sensation of posture, the sensation of movement, temperature (warm or cold), and pain (including itch and tickle).

The primary somatosensory area in the human cortex is located in the postcentral gyrus. Areas of this part of the human brain map to certain areas of the body, dependant on the amount or importance of somatosensory input from that area. For example, the hands have a large amout of cortex devoted to sensation in the hands, while the back has much less area. This somatosensory map is termed the homunculus.

The somatosenses include: Cutaneous (skin), kinesthesia (movement) and organic senses, of which the first two are better known. Organic senses have to do with sensory information from the organs, such as stomach aches. [/b]

well i did not see anything about people faces see if you dont understand how the brain works then dont question my knowledge on it and certainly dont hold assumption it would have took about a minuate to see you our writing crap by going to google and typing in samtosensory system. it pretty hard to take someone seriously if they dont no what their talking about and very hard to respond because you have to figure out where their being dumb or lazy so think then check by typing in google to see if it makes sense i could go on because i have read about three hour of my life on the right inferior gyrus and occipital lobe and to me it all checks out and i mean scientifically tested.

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

type in woman stroke sleep no dreams in google

you got to admit this put massive hole in your assumption that dreams come from hypothalamus because that was left normal the only bit of brain damaged was occiptial lobe or visual cortex. you have to listen to evidence not your own assumption and if you bring up memory thing the woman had perfect memory after stroke it was tested. the point is she lost the abillity to dream when she damage her occiptal lobe only the rest of her brain ok and then straight after can not dream even a moron could deduce that occipital lobe produces dreams. dreaming is the recolletion of event experience as sleep as opposed to what dreaming is the recollection of thought, feeling, elephant in what when your awake no offense but what you say sound silly it does not add to your defense it like seeing a blue bus and saying that blue. well you can look at the evidence and go with your assumption or the real hard evidence.

one your occiptial lobe handle language to or you could not read i could get scientific paper of a study of reading and countless time the occipital lobe and right gyrus our used their also a theory that say dyslexia comes from some going wrong between both and music does get handle to i can get a study of musician who show that the right gyrus is very active when they play and speech too. you have not heard of CAW or something that a region neer the right gyrus get damaged and your brain has hard time reconqizing people and location i.e. you think your home is a replicate of something and your brother your sister.

well i did not see anything about people faces see if you dont understand how the brain works then dont question my knowledge on it and certainly dont hold assumption it would have took about a minuate to see you our writing crap by going to google and typing in samtosensory system. it pretty hard to take someone seriously if they dont no what their talking about and very hard to respond because you have to figure out where their being dumb or lazy so think then check by typing in google to see if it makes sense i could go on because i have read about three hour of my life on the right inferior gyrus and occipital lobe and to me it all checks out and i mean scientifically tested.
[/b]

Alright.. I tried my best to civily ask you to avoid the usage of ad hominem's in order to support your premiss, but you have failed in doing so. This immediately gives a great deal of insincereity to your offense. Firstly, I must annote that I spent my life studying psychology, philosophy, and neuroscience so I feel I have a plethora of references I can call upon to support my statements.

I tried to make it clear that I am not assuming or postualting any inventions of my own accord but replications and citations of the various references of my own - not unreliable internet services, but journals and actual textbooks. Not too mention the various seminars I have attended on physiology and psychology (not my favorite, as I love philosophy, but I have attended them). I will not resolve my premiss with ad hominems, as you did, but I will now give you, much to my apprehension, references for my points followed by textual references. I will not even try, even in the least bit, to add any of my own "assumptions" but simply let the references act for themselves.

I must first postulate and elaborate the undisputed findings of the function of the somatosensory cortex. Consider the following:

Maps of the body surface in somatosensory cortex have been shown to be highly plastic, altering their configuration in response to changes in use of body parts. The current study investigated alterations in the functional organization of the human somatosensory cortex resulting from massed practice. Over a period of 4 weeks, subjects were given synchronous tactile stimulation of thumb (D1) and little finger (D5) for 1 hr/d. They had to identify the orientation of the stimuli. Neuroelectric source localization based on high-resolution EEG revealed that, when subjects received passive tactile stimulation of D1 or D5, the representations of the fingers in primary somatosensory cortex were closer together after training than before. There was also an apparently correlative tendency to anomalously mislocalize near-threshold tactile stimuli equally to the distant finger costimulated during training rather than preferentially to the finger nearest to the finger stimulated in a post-training test. However, when the stimulus discrimination had to be made, neuroelectric source imaging revealed that the digital representations of D1 and D5 were further apart after training than before. Thus, the same series of prolonged repetitive stimulations produced two different opposite effects on the spatial relationship of the cortical representations of the digits, suggesting that differential activation in the same region of somatosensory cortex is specific to different tasks. [/b]

(from http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/full/...urcetype=HWCIT)

The parietal lobe lies between the occipital lobe and central sulcus, one of the deepest grooves in the surface of the cortex. This region processes body information including touch, information from muscle stretch receptors and joint receptors. Just posterior to the central sulcus is called the postcentral gyrus or primary somatosensory area that contains the skin sense sensory homunculus. [/b]

(from http://www-psych.stanford.edu/~kalina/BB/L...e02/index.html)

...face information is carried by cranial nerves...because the face joins the pathway in the pons[/b]

(from http://thalamus.wustl.edu/course/bassens.html - University of Washington&#33

Notice the face on the somatosensory cortex on the right of the image.

Next I will purport the findings and functions of the Occipital Lobe:

The occipital lobes are the center of our visual perception system. They are not particularly vulnerable to injury because of their location at the back of the brain, although any significant trauma to the brain could produce subtle changes to our visual-perceptual system, such as visual field defects and scotomas. The Peristriate region of the occipital lobe is involved in visuospatial processing, discrimination of movement and color discrimination (Westmoreland et al., 1994). Damage to one side of the occipital lobe causes homonomous loss of vision with exactly the same "field cut" in both eyes. Disorders of the occipital lobe can cause visual hallucinations and illusions. Visual hallucinations (visual images with no external stimuli) can be caused by lesions to the occipital region or temporal lobe seizures. Visual illusions (distorted perceptions) can take the form of objects appearing larger or smaller than they actually are, objects lacking color or objects having abnormal coloring. Lesions in the parietal-temporal-occipital association area can cause word blindness with writing impairments (alexia and agraphia) (Kandel, Schwartz & Jessell, 1991). [/b]

(from http://www.neuroskills.com/tbi/boccipit.shtml)

The occipital lobe is located in the posterior, caudal end of the cortex. It is the main target for axons from thalamic nuclei that receive inputs from the visual pathways. It contains the primary visual cortex. [/b]

(from http://www-psych.stanford.edu/~kalina/BB/L...e02/index.html)

Percentage of cerebal cortex volume.... occipital lobe = 18%[/b]

(from http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/facts.html)

Now to purport the location of dreams, I will simply quote the University of Washington as the majority of my references are textual which I will provide on a later date:

How does the brain manage to cut off sensory input, yet still let in the really important (or insistent) stimuli? The answer lies in the thalamus. Remember, no sensory information gets up to the cerebral cortex without first passing through the thalamus. If the gate of the thalamus is closed, then the cortex can shut out the world and go into sleep-mode.

Early on, someone noticed that if the midbrain of a cat was transected (at point A, below), the cat fell into a coma - their EEG became permanently synchronized. This finding alone is not too surprising. However, if the transection was made down in the medulla (at point B), the cat was only paralyzed, not comatose. The most surprising phenomenon was that if the rostral stump of the transected midbrain was electrically stimulated (blue arrow), the cat "woke up" - according to its EEG.

From these experiments it was concluded that there was some pathway originating in the pons or midbrain that ran forward into the cerebrum and stimulated wakefulness. The pathway was thought to originate with a group of neurons in the brainstem, the reticular formation. Therefore it was named the ascending reticular activating system.

The acetylcholinergic neurons project both to the sensory areas of thalamus (such as VPL) and to the reticular nucleus

AWAKE
ACh system active
sensory thalamus facilitated
reticular nucleus inhibited
thalamocortical neurons active
EEG desynchronous

ASLEEP
ACh system inactive
sensory thalamus inhibited
reticular nucleus active
thalamocortical neurons in slow rhythm
EEG synchronous

Dreaming occurs during REM sleep, the "paradoxical" sleep stage. Curiously, the ascending acetylcholinergic system actually turns on - it is as though the brain wakes up internally. Yet for some reason the person remains unconscious and unaware. Dreams generally do not make it to conscious memory unless the dreamer is awakened from the dream itself.

How is it that the cholinergic system can be on and the sleeper still unconscious? The answer probably lies in other neurotransmitters and nuclei of the rostral pons. The dorsal raphe nuclei, a cluster of serotonergic cells, and the locus ceruleus, a group of noradrenergic neurons, also play a role in sleep. They may help to keep consciousness suppressed during dreaming.


One of the striking things about REM sleep is the absolute stillness of the body. During most stages of sleep we toss and turn, but in REM sleep only the eye muscles twitch (and, for some unknown reason, the middle ear muscles&#33. This is due largely to a system of descending inhibition. Dreaming turns on a group of cells in the medulla that descend down the spinal cord and inhibit motor activity. Very specific lesions of these cells (a rare event) lead to a phenomenon called "violent sleeping", where the dreamer physically acts out his or her dreams. This is different from sleepwalking, which usually does not occur during REM sleep.
[/b]

(from http://thalamus.wustl.edu/course/sleep.html)

I conclude.

Please, do not try to attack my points in the idea that I am incompetent when I am clearly stating that I am merely replicating the data and not making any assumptions of my own!

I hope I have been enlightening.

~

well to put it short

REM Dreams and Non-REM dreams are very different from each other in a few major ways. The first difference between the two is Non-REM dreams consist of brief, fragmentary impressions. They are also less likely to involve visual images compared to REM sleep, and are more frequently forgotten. Non-REM dreams are like thinking about something during the day for a brief period of time while REM dreams are comparable to thinking deeply about something. REM sleep consists of about two hours a night while Non-REM sleep lasts about four to six [/b]

Even the woman’s rapid-eye-movement (REM) sleep - the light sleep-state most commonly associated with dreaming - was normal. This reinforces the idea that REM sleep and dreaming have different origins and physical mechanisms, says Bassetti. But it also suggests that the function significance of dreams and REM sleep have been a little overemphasised, at least in adulthood, he adds.[/b]

now compare it to

Dreaming occurs during REM sleep, the "paradoxical" sleep stage.[/b]

if dreaming occurs in REM sleep why does the girl not dream when REM is normal and why has dreaming got recorded in non REM sleep.
the point is as the case of the woman would prove on their crappy assumption wrong. common onus if your brain occiptial get damaged and you find a lesion on the right inferior gyrus and with numerous study have found patient cant remeber dreams and that the only thing wrong with brain she has normal REM cycle, memory e.t.c. then even a moron can deduce that dreams come from occiptial lobe. seriously and your wrong about somato cortex

This region processes body information including touch, information from muscle stretch receptors and joint receptors[/b]

you said that this deal with

The sensation of people's faces is facilitated by the somatosensory cortex. [/b]

maybe of your own face but when in their does it say visual information. sorry but it just i seriously have to stopping myself being rude but you could argue physical touch this is used in dream but not visual representaion you know imagining seeing i thoght you meant that we see people faces in dreams because of somatosensory cortex because i was talking about the right inferior gyrus and something neer it being responcible for seeing thing like people faces in dream and then you said no it for laughter and then gave me part of brain that regulate touch as a defense.

Disorders of the occipital lobe can cause visual hallucinations and illusions. Visual hallucinations (visual images with no external stimuli) can be caused by lesions to the occipital region or temporal lobe seizures[/b]

in one article about woman they was talking about dreams and they might be a visual hallucinations in fact the part that was damaged is near the part activated by schiofernic. also they say this is why dreams are not dependent on REM cycle as numerous studies would suggest i can get them if you want. see common go to google a type in woman

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Dream Loss in Stroke Patient Linked to Occipital Lobe Damage

Yael Waknine
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Sept. 10, 2004 — Total dream loss is a distinct neuropsychological dysfunction caused by deep bilateral occipital lobe damage and can occur in a setting of normal sleep architecture, including REM sleep, according to a case study reported Sept. 10 in the online edition of the Annals of Neurology.

"The term Charcot-Wilbrand syndrome (CWS) denotes dream loss following focal brain damage," write Matthias Bischof, MD, and Claudio L. Bassetti, MD, from the Department of Neurology at the University of Bern in Switzerland. "To our knowledge, our patient with CWS is the first to be reported with full clinical, neuropsychological, neuroimaging, and polysomnographic documentation."

After an acute, bilateral occipital artery infarction that included the right inferior lingual gyrus, a hypertensive but otherwise healthy woman aged 73 years reported dream loss over a three-month period. Dream loss occurred in the absence of other sleep-wake or neuropsychiatric complaints, including the neuropsychological symptoms (irreminiscence, prosopagnosia, and topographagnosia) usually found in patients with CWS.

Results of four conventional all-night polysomnographics (PSGs) performed from five days to six weeks after the stroke showed a slight decrease in sleep efficiency, but essentially normal sleep architecture with normal REM amounts, density, and latency. No sleep-disordered breathing or periodic limb movements were observed during sleep.

During the last PSG, the patient reported no dream experiences when repeatedly wakened from normal REM sleep at five- to 20-minute intervals from onset. "In other patients, persistence of dreaming despite loss of REM sleep has been reported," the authors note. "These observations confirm that REM sleep and dreaming, while linked, may depend on independent generators."

The patient has since regained her ability to dream, although at one year she reports a clear reduction in frequency (0-1 times/week vs. 3-4 times/week prior to stroke) and vividness/intensity of dreaming.

"[D]eep bilateral occipital lobe damage including the right inferior lingual gyrus may represent the 'minimal lesion extension' necessary for CWS to arise," the authors write. "This observation suggests that CWS (1) can represent a distinct and isolated neuropsychological manifestation of deep occipital lobe damage and (2) may occur in the absence of detectable REM sleep abnormalities [and] other cognitive deficits as [assessed] by formal, routine neuropsychological testing."

Ann Neurol. 2004;56:1-4

Reviewed by Gary D. Vogin, MD[/b]

if you read that at the end it say that

"In other patients, persistence of dreaming despite loss of REM sleep has been reported,"[/b]

"These observations confirm that REM sleep and dreaming, while linked, may depend on independent generators."[/b]

After careful analysis of the points made, I found the problem which caused problematic conflict in this thread.

Firstly, after reading the artical, it is obvious that Charcot-Wilbrand syndrome (CWS) is a key element. Thusly, I ran a search for it through some primary websites. However, I did not find any results. Here are the websites I ran a search for CWS through:

Journal of Neuroscience - http://www.jneurosci.org
Society for Neuroscience - http://www.sfn.org *Edit, was wrong link
Neuroskills and Traumatic Brain Injury - http://www.neuroskills.com
American Psychological Association - http://www.apa.org
Canadian Psychological Association - http://www.cpa.ca (requires membership)
Washington University Program in Neurosience/University of Washington - http://neuroscience.wustl.edu
(Please note to me whether or not these are credible sources)

However, when I searched CWS through google and basic internet websites, I did find some results. Of course, my initial complaint was the validity of these articles as they are derived from people who have no association with recognized scholarly institutions. However, I found a point which made clear the conflict.

The problem I found is that other sources (such as americanscientist.org) explained that CWS and the problems that individuals have with dreaming is not that they can not dream, but that they can not revisualize the dreams.

Hence we have the concluding factors:
- I have vividly tried to elucidate what makes dreaming occur
- You have vividly tried to elucidate what prevents dream revisualization

I must thank you for this for I did not know of CWS and I now see it as a prime publication opportunity for scholarly journals (considering it is not in any&#33. However, we can not confuse the revisualization with the functionality of dreaming in other words the occipital lobe does not facilitate dreams but facilitates the revisualization and recollection of dreams.

On another note - yes, the somatosensory cortex is solely for your own facial and body receptions, not the receptions of others. I am not sure how that became an issue but.. I hope that rectifies it.

And with that note, I must say that this thread has caused me to do thorough research on these topics and I am quite thankful for the elicitation! In other words - thank you for enlightenment and I hope I have been equally enlightening.

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Originally Posted by sugarglider11

is it true you only dream in rem? Ive heard people say yes oand people say no, so wich is is true do you only dream in rem or all night?
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Some people claim they dream and even turn lucid during deep sleep stage, but i have seen no controlled studies that has shown that this is possible. I myself am highly doubtful due to the fact that there are very little brain activity during those stages of sleep.

Some people claim they dream and even turn lucid during deep sleep stage, but i have seen no controlled studies that has shown that this is possible. I myself am highly doubtful due to the fact that there are very little brain activity during those stages of sleep. [/b]

common have you read the post even. their is not very little brain activity their is slow EEG this just means certain part change over but the occiptial lobe stays the same and plus the EEG is common from deep within the brain masking EEG plus you cant throw away countless study that show people in deep sleep stage when awaken remeber dream suddenly and the fact people with abnormal with no REM cycle can dream perfectly which has tested plus the woman who cant dream and has normal REM. read the post before typing please.

not that they can not dream, but that they can not revisualize the dreams. [/b]

i said it was like cws not cws the person who carried out study tested her visualization and memory skills and it came out normal therfore they could leave this assumption out i can get you bit from article which says this.

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

common have you read the post even. their is not very little brain activity their is slow EEG this just means certain part change over but the occiptial lobe stays the same and plus the EEG is common from deep within the brain masking EEG plus you cant throw away countless study that show people in deep sleep stage when awaken remeber dream suddenly and the fact people with abnormal with no REM cycle can dream perfectly which has tested plus the woman who cant dream and has normal REM. read the post before typing please.

i said it was like cws not cws the person who carried out study tested her visualization and memory skills and it came out normal therfore they could leave this assumption out i can get you bit from article which says this.
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Are you then disagreeing with the following,

However, we can not confuse the revisualization with the functionality of dreaming in other words the occipital lobe does not facilitate dreams but facilitates the revisualization and recollection of dreams.

?

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Originally Posted by becomingagodo

common have you read the post even. their is not very little brain activity their is slow EEG this just means certain part change over but the occiptial lobe stays the same and plus the EEG is common from deep within the brain masking EEG plus you cant throw away countless study that show people in deep sleep stage when awaken remeber dream suddenly and the fact people with abnormal with no REM cycle can dream perfectly which has tested plus the woman who cant dream and has normal REM. read the post before typing please.

i said it was like cws not cws the person who carried out study tested her visualization and memory skills and it came out normal therfore they could leave this assumption out i can get you bit from article which says this.
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Well the studies i read about was done with MRI to measure brain activity. The results showed that the brain is much less active in deep sleep than in REM or waking state. But if you have some links about studies regarding deep sleep and dreaming, then please post them. I never mean to say that it is impossible to dream in deep sleep, i just merely said that i have seen no studies on it. I do however find it really doubtful that a person could get lucid in during deep sleep though.

Are you then disagreeing with the following,

However, we can not confuse the revisualization with the functionality of dreaming in other words the occipital lobe does not facilitate dreams but facilitates the revisualization and recollection of dreams.

“But more interesting than the location is the fact that everything else about the woman seemed to be normal. She showed no signs of any problems with memory, attention or any other mental abilities, and beyond a few visual disturbances in the first few days, normal vision. “She has no other cognitive problems after a full clinical assessment,” says Bassetti. “She has a normal visual imagination.” .”

seriously their no problem with revisualization and memory the neurologist who did the study said he done a special procedure to protect agains this.

A lot of the time if somebody's got brain damage and they can't tell you any dreams, there's the possibility that it's because they've got bad memories," said Dr Mark Blagrove, a psychologist at Swansea University. This can yield false results because it might look as though the person is not actually able to produce dreams.

But Dr Bassetti's work got around this problem by investigating the patient's attention and memory and ability to imagine things when awake. In addition, the patient reported that she dreamed three or four times a week before her stroke

oh Thomas

REM Dreams and Non-REM dreams are very different from each other in a few major ways. The first difference between the two is Non-REM dreams consist of brief, fragmentary impressions. They are also less likely to involve visual images compared to REM sleep, and are more frequently forgotten. Non-REM dreams are like thinking about something during the day for a brief period of time while REM dreams are comparable to thinking deeply about something. REM sleep consists of about two hours a night while Non-REM sleep lasts about four to six hours.

http://academic.pgcc.edu/~mhspear/sl...s/nrsleep.html

These findings ‘do not support a dichotomic distinction between REM and NREM mentation, rather they suggest the hypothesis of the existence of continuous dream processing characterised by a variability within and between sleep stages’

In fact, we now know that dream reports are obtainable from as many as 50-70% of awakenings during the sleep onset phase, that is, in the first few minutes after falling asleep (Foulkes & Vogel, 1965; Foulkes et al, 1966; Vogel et al, 1972). This is a far higher rate than at any other point during the non-REM cycle, and almost as high as the REM rate

The only reliable difference between REM dream reports, sleep-onset reports, and certain other classes of non-REM dream report is that the REM reports are longer. In all other respects, the non-REM and REM dreams appear to be identical.

http://www.psychoanalysis.org.uk/solms4.htm

The phases of falling asleep in late evening and the brief interval shortly before waking in the morning were especially rich in dreams. In addition, it seemed that non-REM dreams were relatively short and rationally constructed in terms of facts and logic, whereas REM dreams were more visual, emotional and detailed.

http://www.sciammind.com/article.cfm?artic...mp;pageNumber=3

50-70% of awakenings during sleep onset lead to dream reports i.e., non-REM dream reports before any REM sleep during the night were almost as frequent as dreams reported during REM sleep.

Except for the length of the dream report, sleep-onset non-REM dream reports and REM dream reports are identical.

Cases have been reported in neurological literature of damage to the pons resulting in total or near-total loss REM sleep. Loss of dreaming was reported in only 1 of those cases. In the other, loss of dreaming could not be established or was not considered.

110 cases published in the neuro-scientific literature included reports of loss of dreaming. In all these cases, the damage to the brain spared the pons (the center for REM sleep). REM sleep was spared in those cases despite their loss of dreaming.

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Could these last two accounts suggest that the REM stage and dreaming are, in fact, not dependent on each other?

http://library.thinkquest.org/05aug/01261/...vs__science.htm
i think this will do thomas. off topic do you actually understand EEG or mRI all they do is measure the combined effect of potential differences in parts of brain they dont give you activity also some theorise that smart people use less activity to do a task then dumb people and that infant/children have the slowest EEG compared with adults and let they learn faster and get smarter then adults. see EEG gives you general activity not specific e.g. a musician would have very fine tune specific EEG activity when doing music not a general broad very fast activity that you assume means better plus when they get good at it the level of activity will decrease.

p.s. for some dumb reason quote are not working so i underline quote

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

seriously their no problem with revisualization and memory the neurologist who did the study said he done a special procedure to protect agains this.
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So you abide by the theory that the occipital lobe is the primary lobe for dreaming.....?

(Oh, would my fellow students love to hear that...)

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