Thread: OBE (Out of Body Experience). Are some using the term too loosely.

Should only refer to circumstances in which you perceive that your consciousness is outside of your body (OUT OF BODY EXPERIENCE). Whether this happens in waking life (as it easily can), or in a dream. I mean all third person dreams are OBEs. Using the no-body or twin-bodies technique becomes an OBE. OBEs are not limited to WILDs, not limited to dreaming. I think we ought to stress that, that OBE is simply a matter of perception. Then, whoever is talking about it can specify what exactly they believe was the reason for the OBE (be it SP hallucination, WILD process, dream experience, perspective of the dream, actual waking life OBE, drug-induced OBE, or if they believe they have managed to get their soul or whatever to leave their body.

A false awakening is completely different. It's simply having a dream that you've woken up. Doesn't have anything to do with perspective, except that your perceive that you've just woken up when you're actually still dreaming.

I'm not voting, the poll doesn't really have an option I believe is correct.

I've had both kinds of experience, which I classify as being different in nature.

But I am sort of agnostic regarding the "supernatural" reality of oobe, and have come to the definite opinion that at this point we and our science lack the tools to know one way or the other. That the most skeptical realists can do with certainty is run tests poisoned by their own assumptions and lack of ability to observe. And the most believers can do with certainty is point to the fact that their experiences are self-consistent. The answers in between those two certainties are like a symbol of the tao.

But you don't have a poll option for agnostics

Originally Posted by starry eyes

I've had both kinds of experience, which I classify as being different in nature.

But I am sort of agnostic regarding the "supernatural" reality of oobe, and have come to the definite opinion that at this point we and our science lack the tools to know one way or the other. That the most skeptical realists can do with certainty is run tests poisoned by their own assumptions and lack of ability to observe. And the most believers can do with certainty is point to the fact that their experiences are self-consistent. The answers in between those two certainties are like a symbol of the tao.

But you don't have a poll option for agnostics

Fair point, I didn't consider fence sitters.
Though I'd say that really, in the context of the poll, you'd be fair enough saying you don't beleive.

Originally Posted by Shift

Should only refer to circumstances in which you perceive that your consciousness is outside of your body (OUT OF BODY EXPERIENCE). Whether this happens in waking life (as it easily can), or in a dream. I mean all third person dreams are OBEs. Using the no-body or twin-bodies technique becomes an OBE. OBEs are not limited to WILDs, not limited to dreaming. I think we ought to stress that, that OBE is simply a matter of perception. Then, whoever is talking about it can specify what exactly they believe was the reason for the OBE (be it SP hallucination, WILD process, dream experience, perspective of the dream, actual waking life OBE, drug-induced OBE, or if they believe they have managed to get their soul or whatever to leave their body.

Yeah, but really any and all dreams are essentially Out of Body aren't they. Seems to me that it makes the term somewhat redundant.

I get the finer differences. But how many times have you seen a thread appear saying "was this an OBE?" and the first question is "do you mean dreaming or really leaving your body (Cough beyond dreaming cough)".

Given your interpretation, its a hop skip and a jump to saying that the traditional supernatural OBE may need a more specific name or some kind of disclaimer, as OBE is far too general a term.

Originally Posted by Shift

A false awakening is completely different. It's simply having a dream that you've woken up. Doesn't have anything to do with perspective, except that your perceive that you've just woken up when you're actually still dreaming.

Yes and no. I thought false awakenings are false awakenings whether your realise you're still dreaming or not.

Apparently, one of the key differences between a lucid and a supernatural OBE is that in an OBE you will be able to see yourself sleeping in bed.
I suppose what I'm getting at is that I would call this a False Awakening.
Though I doubt the "believers" would agree with that assesment.

Hmm,

I suppose this is the problem with allowing new-age idea into a forum about dreaming.

I'm sure we can pretty much all agree with the modern explanation that a dream is a mental phenomena.
I've always wondered why then, do so many people wanting to talk about spirits, the astral plane, ghosts etc. etc. flock to a forum that is discussing psychology?

We can dream about almost anything, winning the lottery, being a mouse, having two heads, leaving the body etc. etc.
why does only ONE of these endless themes of dreaming get it's own special term?

Why isn't there a MBE (Mouse body experience)
or a WTLE (winning the lottery experience)


Still if people insist on bringing medival explanations for experiences that in the modern mindset are already accounted for (saying a dream about leaving the body means you really did leave your body.. rather than just dreamt it), (or that dreaming of a demon sitting on you is a real demon... eg. incubus... rather than sleep paralysis hallucination)
then the confusion will persist.

This is a problem with superstitious thinking clashing with modern thinking. Not really just about terms. The two clash by nature.

Still if you want a self evident term how about DOBE: Dreamt Out of Body Experience.
(meaning: any dream with a theme of leaving the body... but it's still just a dream.)

I'll side with science with this one and say that every OBE is a DOBE (well i'll give a little slack and say that SOME OBEs are more complex mental phenomena than just dreams... say perhaps some kind of hallucination caused by extreme stress... still a mental phenomena though)

Originally Posted by moonshine

Fair point, I didn't consider fence sitters.
Though I'd say that really, in the context of the poll, you'd be fair enough saying you don't beleive.

Actually, I am personally inclined to believe. But I know I can't say it with certainty. Though I can find some personal belief when discussing with a believer, as long as what they are saying isn't too outrageous.

It difficult to decide. On one hand, it should be reserved for the paranormal, the abbreviation is already too tainted by its ever-present link with the paranormal. On another hand, many people believe a myth about an inherent difference between LDs and OBEs, and in this case they'd find themselves wanting to accept the idea of the paranormal nature of it, out of clinging to that myth.

Anyway it's always surprising how a believer describes what he knows is a LD (describing wrong details in a room, people who couldn't be there, etc) and yet calls it an OBE. I mean, a believer, of all people, should believe that OBEs are real!

Originally Posted by starry eyes

I've had both kinds of experience, which I classify as being different in nature.

The same but I wouldn't classify them differently, there's no differences that I ever noticed. I had people like you in mind when I said that some people believe in an inherent difference between a LD and an OBE

Originally Posted by moonshine

Yeah, but really any and all dreams are essentially Out of Body aren't they. Seems to me that it makes the term somewhat redundant.

If I had to pick I'd say that all dreams are IN body, but it's only out of body if your experience of it is that you are out of your body. If I have a dream that I'm walking down the street, that's not an OBE, because I believe I'm in my body, my experience is that I am in a body, walking. Usually for me, even if I'm lucid I still think I'm in 'a' body because I'm usually inhabiting a dream body. I rarely have third person dreams, though I do have dreams that I'm in another person's body- I would consider that an OBE as well, since I'm not in my own. So even though if lucid, I realize the body I'm in is not actually dream since it's a dream body, my perception is still that I am inhabiting a body. If I had a dream where I was floating around, or floated above my own body in bed, that would be an out of body experience, because my perception would be that I was outside of my body. If I were lucid, and knew that really I was in my head, I would still be perceiving the hallucination itself as my consciousness, without body, floating over a dream body that I'm "supposed" to be inhabiting, so it would be an OBE.

Originally Posted by moonshine

I get the finer differences. But how many times have you seen a thread appear saying "was this an OBE?" and the first question is "do you mean dreaming or really leaving your body (Cough beyond dreaming cough)". Given your interpretation, its a hot skip and a jump to saying that the traditional supernatural OBE may need a more specific name or some kind of disclaimer, as OBE is far too general a term.

I'm not really sure what you mean with this. But, OBEs simply refer to any and all experiences that your consciousness is residing out of your body. It can happen in car accidents, it can happen on drug trips, it can happen in dreams, it can happen in operating rooms, and according to some it can happen when you float your soul/spirit/whatever, the thing embodying/containing your consciousness or essence of self, leaves your body. If a person says, "Oh my god I had an OBE" I'd respond, "Oh? In an accident? Were you using drugs? Did you just mean a dream? (All matters of perception) Or do you mean, you actually think you actually left your body to float around?" It's still a perception but I'd be inquiring as to what they believe was the CAUSE of their OBE. That's why I use "AP" instead of the general "OBE", because most people who talk about OBEs in that paranormal type aspect usually think they're floating around in some alternate dimension or whatever, as a soul or spot of light or whatever else, so it's easier to keep it straight that way. To me, an OBE is the perceptual experience of being out of your own body. Then, you can specify and guess why/how it happened, what caused it.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Yes and no. I thought false awakenings are false awakenings whether your realise you're still dreaming or not.

Yeah, false awakening just means you dreamt of waking up from sleep. You might realize during it that it's a dream, or you might not until you've woken up. Just having a false awakening, though, doesn't mean you'll see your own body or bedroom, you could have a false awakening that you woke up on the side of the road in a ditch. You could also dream of seeing your own body laying in bed without having a false awakening. I mean, WILDs using the Twin Bodies Technique start out this way.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Apparently, one of the key differences between a lucid and a supernatural OBE is that in an OBE you will be able to see yourself sleeping in bed.
I suppose what I'm getting at is that I would call this a False Awakening.
Though I doubt the "believers" would agree with that assesment.

But that has nothing to do with dreaming that you've woken up. In a lucid you can see yourself sleeping in bed, too. And an OBE just refers to being out of your own body. I mean, you'd assume that means you can 'see' your body, but that's not really what that means. It just means the experience of being outside of your physical body.

Originally Posted by Arutad

The same but I wouldn't classify them differently, there's no differences that I ever noticed. I had people like you in mind when I said that some people believe in an inherent difference between a LD and an OBE

I guess everyone's experiences will be unique to themselves, we're all different.

Using the same very wild-ish technique, I've had AP experiences and LD experiences which were completely different at the basic sensory level. Though my AP experiences were rather different from what most people describe, and not what I was expecting.

In comparison, I have also have one LD of having a OOBE, and the reason I classify it as that instead of calling it a OOBE is because at that basic sensory level it's nature/quality resembled that of a LD.

For me, the inherent difference can be recognized in the perceptions themselves.

Originally Posted by starry eyes

For me, the inherent difference can be recognized in the perceptions themselves.

Don't you think that the differences happen because you expect them in the first place? Don't you think that one bad OOBE that you had was an OOBE that happened to fail expectations and not an entirely different experience altogether?

But with somebody who already made up his mind I guess it's no use to discuss their expectations... That's how popular myths live on.

All I can say is that I can make a magnificently real OBE out of a shitty muddled one at will, and that I had LDs that were equally real on sensory level.

I voted for using the term for either option. I think an OBE is a specific type of experience that deserves its own term. Any time you feel like you're leaving your body, it is an OBE, regardless of the cause or the interpretation. I would encourage people to further clarify the OBE. Was it caused by falling asleep or dreaming? Was it caused by a near death/ traumatic experience? Did you meditate to specifically reach the state? Was it caused by electrodes connected to your brain? Intense G-forces in an airplane or flight simulator?

I think "OBE" is a general umbrella term. I agree it is frustrating to see people always connecting it to the paranormal. I feel the same way about the term UFO. Just because we know UFOs are real, it does not mean we know Aliens cause them. There is a huge jump in logic between identifying something and inventing an outlandish explanation for it.