Thread: Are DCs Real?

Originally Posted by Posquant

This is not my dream experience.



I mostly see scenes, places, fixtures, buildings, cities, vehicles, technology, entities etc. that I know I have never seen or heard of before, in person or in movies / media.

So, I have difficulty believing that my mind just "makes up" such scenes, or the DCs in them. The scenes are far too detailed, vivid, independent of my will. These are not replayed, dull, poorly recycled. Rather ... unfamiliar, novel, complete.

And, in my waking experience, my mind does not just constantly make things up, fantasize, project. It perceives, and I see and interact with, the world... not my own phantom mental images.

So, really, if you're arguing for #1, and if you have DC dream subject matter that is NOT familiar (replayed), and if you have DCs or scenes that don't obey you, you're actually making a claim for mental functions even more extraordinary than mere extended perception.

You're really suppoosing that your mind is somehow helping to create those worlds.

Given the weird role of consciousness in the quantum, we can't really prove that impossible, either. But the ethical imperative remains the same ...

PQ

So... you feel that the perception of highly probabilistic alternate realities separate from our own in every way is less extraordinary than imagination?

Originally Posted by Posquant

Are you just objecting out of reflex or something? Are you always this random?

I said I see exotic detailed "places, fixtures, buildings, cities, vehicles, technology, entities". But you say I saw the scenes in waking life? What?

You know my dreams better than me? My dreams must conform to your limits, your formula? You don't see, so I can't?

Fill in the blank? Well, seems that your brain is good at it anyway.

I haven't regularly dreamed about the mundane familiar everyday for years. I hope that you get a change, the chance to see some more interesting scenery some time.

the brain can fill in the blanks as to what it may look like, perhaps a book you read or something else.

Not everything is by seeing people, or buildings. It can be by reading, by imagining from things you already know.

You said

I mostly see scenes, places, fixtures, buildings, cities, vehicles, technology, entities etc. that I know I have never seen or heard of before, in person or in movies / media.

I said

Just because you don't remember it, does not mean you did not see it. Even a glimpse is enough to get stored.

You can not and i repeat CAN NOT know every exact detail of your life, everything you saw. It can be as simple as you not remembering, or you did not look at it directly, but your eye got it, and it got stored. You could have also not been listening to something, yet could hear it faintly, or loud but did not pay attention, but your ears did. It knew every sound that was created, and it all gets stored.

Me? No. I think it's more extraordinary.

For most of my life I dreamed normal dreams. So I was acutely aware of the change when my dreams suddenly turned realistic, anomalous. And those first "real" dreams were also clearly computer, technology mediated. See through eyes. Camera obscura. I .... plugged in.

I had never before then imagined that dreams could be any other than muddled, familiar, disjointed. Insofar as that is the norm, the "real" dreams are extraordinary.

Imagination is cool. But I could never have imagined all that I have seen in these dreams. Truth is stranger than fiction.

OK. I'll try harder to notice that alternative WWI, that "other" Civil War, that funky anti-grav flyer, next time I pass them by on the way to work.

I also said imagination, or atleast meant to.

Even though I don't think that DCs are real, I kinda want to play devil's advocate.
So, ultimately I guess it depends on what you consider to be real. This brings to mind a quote from The Matrix: "What is real? How do you define real? If real is something that you can taste or touch, then real is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain".
So could DC be real? Thats sort of impossible to prove (at least by the scientific method), however, I guess it could be a possibility (even if its slim)...

You mean "visualization"?

Seems we imagine things in general. We visualize them in detail.

But semantics aside, how far does that go? Can you visualize a whole world, all the details, of something you've never seen before? Do it all at once, in flowing real time? No gaps?

Try it.

Doesn't seem that our brains are wired to do that. We perceive. We vaguely imagine. But we don't normally create complete photo-realistic scene scapes in our mind's eye.

DC's are like imaginary friends, except they reside in your dreams, and they can be seen, heard, smelled, tasted, and touched. As well as be burned to a crisp by fireballs.

Originally Posted by Posquant

You mean "visualization"?

Seems we imagine things in general. We visualize them in detail.

But semantics aside, how far does that go? Can you visualize a whole world, all the details, of something you've never seen before? Do it all at once, in flowing real time? No gaps?

Try it.

Doesn't seem that our brains are wired to do that. We perceive. We vaguely imagine. But we don't normally create complete photo-realistic scene scapes in our mind's eye.

We only vaguely imagine while awake. While sleeping, you all of a sudden don't need to bother with handling sensory input and sending complex signals along motor neurons. The lucidity technique of V-WILD is hinged entirely on the fact that the brain can and will come up with a realistic experience nearly on demand.

Well. You assume.

You assume ... what the brain "comes up with" is ad hoc ... is independent of what really is ... somewhere... somewhen. Totally isolate? OK. Maybe.

I suppose this is not true. I assume it.

You? You assume you don't assume? You know what's TRUE, by assumption? What's NOT?

You now what you don't assume?

Ku.

Good for you. Don't.

Originally Posted by Posquant

Well. You assume.

You assume ... what the brain "comes up with" is ad hoc ... is independent of what really is ... somewhere... somewhen. Totally isolate? OK. Maybe.

I suppose this is not true. I assume it.

You? You assume you don't assume? You know what's TRUE, by assumption? What's NOT?

You now what you don't assume?

Ku.

Good for you. Don't.

How is this at all a response to anything posted so far?

Hi new to the forum. I've had some LDs myself, and also wonder to the rules that exist on The Other Side. As far as I can ascertain, the DCs do not follow conventional physical rules themselves, and therefore probably are not susceptible to what we think is pain which we are approaching from a purely biological point of view. Also, our rule of there being one body to one identity, I think is also not something they are bound to either.

Posquant, you're really not making much sense.

And I don't see why you have such a problem with believing that the brain can think up extraordinary places, people, objects, animals, etc etc etc, but rather believe that it's...what....."travelling" to distant realms far beyond the reach of waking life? Picking up signals or something?

Seriously, the brain is amazing. It really is. Well some brains at least. And when you're dreaming of being somewhere you've never been before, that doesn't mean your brain is also conjuring up an entire working universe. Just what you can see. I can imagine a flying house, but that doesn't mean I also have to think up the technology to make that so. This is in reference to something you said earlier that I can't be bothered to quote about trying to think up...I dunno, a lot of stuff at once.

And the argument "it's possible, therefore inevitable" reeeeeaally doesn't hold up well. Best to drop that one.

As you may have guessed, I believe DC's are entirely made up by my mind, from people I've met, seen, heard, different personality traits, etc etc etc. A whole range of things. Sure they may act unexpectedly sometimes, but that's...eurgh..."to be expected."

Originally Posted by KingYetiTeffa

And when you're dreaming of being somewhere you've never been before, that doesn't mean your brain is also conjuring up an entire working universe.

Actually my brain has generated something before in a dream that I could not distinguish from the entire working universe. How can you prove that this universe is more complex then the one's our brains can create?

Originally Posted by Daniel Danciu

DC's are like imaginary friends, except they reside in your dreams, and they can be seen, heard, smelled, tasted, and touched. As well as be burned to a crisp by fireballs.

Hahaha!

It appears as though there is nothing physical which can justify DCs being anything but our thoughts. So... no proof is required to believe that they are not independantly real. The burden of proof is on those who believe that DCs are more than thoughts.

How would DCs be real? People have talked about seperate plains of reality and such, but none of this has to do with anything objective. If I'm wrong here, I'd like to know how so.

I suppose the problem is that what we term as real, is what we observe to be rationally verifiable by the five senses. Yet we are talking about something that is not verifiable through the senses. So to justify if what is already unverifiable through the five senses as real would be foolish, by the very definition of real. Now, if we were instead to talk about the recurrency and complexity of what is not verifiable through the five senses, as we have observed through our "Other" five senses, then we could set up a model of examining the non-real but ultimately observable.

I think.....I'm sure I completely misunderstood what you said Templeton, but when you mention recurrency.....thats the real problem with DC's. They are completely subject to changing in any way, shape or form at any given second. The very fact that they are so unstable, and non-tangible (you may be able to "sense" them, but those sense are again subject to changing on a whim) I think classes them as.....well I want to say non-observable, but I'm sure you'd argue that you can actually observe them. But once again, just to make sure this horse is completely dead, what you see/feel/smell/taste/etc could change from one nanosecond to the next.

And I wasn't saying that this universe is more complex than one we can dream up, except that....well basically I think it is. It's well beyond the brain's capacity to contain such a ridiculously infinite number of details and equations and etc etc etc. Although come to think of it, I'm again not sure if this point is arguing against what you said. I have a very bad memory.

I believe they are not real in the sense that they are still remaining after your dream has ended. However I do feel they can have a real impact on your waking life, as they did this morning.

Originally Posted by KingYetiTeffa

Posquant, you're really not making much sense.

Maybe. It wouldn't be the first time. But my job is to think and write, and be able to support - every - single - word - that I put to paper. I don't get paid to be sloppy. I face real consequences if I fail to question my facts or conclusions.

Old habits die hard. And these issues, raised in the course of my little metaphysical hobby, are far more important than the mundane problems that my clients face in this little ol' "real" world.

So what. What do I know? Well. Only a bit, after all these years ...but infinitely more than I knew when I began.

I know that it's prudent to ask questions like: "What can or can't you (or I) claim as to what is or is not (or can or cannot be possible) when dealing with unknowns that may or may not also be unknowable?"

Do you believe in ghosts? Elves? Angels?

Because you have not seen them, can you prove that they do not exist somewhere, in some realm, under some rules, of which you (we) are not aware?

Care to guess how many things in all existence exist outside of your awareness and experience? Most.

Or, do you presume ... none? Wow! If so, you are God.

Originally Posted by KingYetiTeffa

And I don't see why you have such a problem with believing that the brain can think up extraordinary places, people, objects, animals, etc etc etc, but rather believe that it's...what....."travelling" to distant realms far beyond the reach of waking life? Picking up signals or something?

Signals? Why not? We do see remotely. We know it's possible. Example: Television. Consider the entire system. Remotely received technologically mediated perceptions of "real" distant people and places.

And yet you presume that the anomalies seen in your dreams - things completely different from anything you've already seen - have no independent reality.

You see dreams as something like video games? Cartoons. There's "no there there", behind the action. Maybe. Or maybe it's more like TV. Or a hybrid.

Again, my test for DC and their world's reality is easy. Do those entities have coherent continuous shared experiences of the world I see them in? That's the best basis we have for our own subjective reality, and for the apparent reality of anything we think exists in this world.

You all seem to be implicitly using some version of the Turing Test (look it up), which is a test of appearances, and, as a mere evidentiary presumption, doesn't really get at the actual phenomenon.

Originally Posted by KingYetiTeffa

Seriously, the brain is amazing. It really is. Well some brains at least. And when you're dreaming of being somewhere you've never been before, that doesn't mean your brain is also conjuring up an entire working universe. Just what you can see. I can imagine a flying house, but that doesn't mean I also have to think up the technology to make that so. This is in reference to something you said earlier that I can't be bothered to quote about trying to think up...I dunno, a lot of stuff at once.

My comment, on visualization, was about information density. Imagination is vague and general. Dream visions, mine anyway, are full of anomalously unfamiliar detail.

To imagine is not to "see"... perceive. And to perceive a full world of immediate detail all at once, is a form of seeing beyond what we normally call imagination. So to see in all-at-once vivid detail something that one has never imagined or seen in this world suggests that that which is seen may not be merely imagined.

Originally Posted by KingYetiTeffa

And the argument "it's possible, therefore inevitable" reeeeeaally doesn't hold up well. Best to drop that one.

The argument is that "it's possible, therefore it can't without firm evidence be ruled out as impossible ... or unreal."

Again, the correct position is agnostic. (And please do look up words /concepts you don't understand? That's the only way to learn. And if you don't learn, you have nothing to teach.)

To believe that something is not real (or can't be) because not affirmatively proven, though that something is scientifically possible and in fact not disproven, is also a belief.

Whatever the actual answer to "what is", ultimately, that form of skepticism, in its definitive denial (a negative assertion) of both possible and actual, is itself wrongheaded.

Where science can't rule out the possibility, better to say ..."maybe"... and act accordingly.

Really, all I'm saying is that: science now makes it look more possible than not that there is a multiverse, different dimensional realms possibly supporting different forms of existence (for the actors there), and our brain-bodies are powerful enough to interact with and (in dreams anyway) perceive those realities.

Originally Posted by KingYetiTeffa

As you may have guessed, I believe DC's are entirely made up by my mind, from people I've met, seen, heard, different personality traits, etc etc etc. A whole range of things. Sure they may act unexpectedly sometimes, but that's...eurgh..."to be expected."

Again, my dreams are not this sort of pastiche of the familiar. They are strikingly unfamilar, detailed, otherwordly.

Maybe that has to do with how I act in my dreams.

I admit that I have only rarely tried to LD. I seek to know, rather than to do, or control. So I watch, listen, go with the flow, in my dreams. I am aware. I act with the scene, when I do... not against.

Perhaps that gentler method takes one farther, in terms of what one might see.

Try it sometime.

And in the meantime, try to remember that ignorance can never justify denial. Only the greatest learning can say what is not possible, or what is not extent in fact, within that.

Originally Posted by KingYetiTeffa

They are completely subject to changing in any way, shape or form at any given second. The very fact that they are so unstable, and non-tangible (you may be able to "sense" them, but those sense are again subject to changing on a whim) I think classes them as.....

This is interesting. I didn't know that you guys were seeing DCs this way. Again, I get a high degree of coherence in my scenes. And I don't act to disrupt them. I don't turn DCs into puppets. I act as if I would in waking life.

Maybe you guys are seeing some kind of epiphenomenal images, after all. Not the "real thing", but a facsimile.

But I'd still argue the possibility that you're seeing projections of real entities, rather than your own merely imaginative (not visually generative) brains.

Again ...the possibility.

Originally Posted by KingYetiTeffa

And I wasn't saying that this universe is more complex than one we can dream up, except that....well basically I think it is. It's well beyond the brain's capacity to contain such a ridiculously infinite number of details and equations and etc etc etc. Although come to think of it, I'm again not sure if this point is arguing against what you said. I have a very bad memory.

Actually, that complexity - "well beyond the brain's capacity to contain such a ridiculously infinite number of details and equations and etc etc etc" - argues against your brain's ability to independently generate a truly uniquely detailed scene.

So, the greater the level of information density, the more likely it is that a dream scene is somehow actually "seen" (received, perceived, out there) rather than being merely, solely, produced by the brain.

PQ

Originally Posted by Licity

How is this at all a response to anything posted so far?

Sorry. You're right. I get frustrated.

But the point is so critical, so simple.

Skepticism is fine, good, and very very necessary.

But the claim that DC's DON'T exist for themselves is also unproven, entirely a "belief" based on unproven assumptions.

Again, the limits of our knowledge of "what is" or "is possible" also limit what we can know "is not" or "cannot be".

And the assumption that DCs cannot exist, in some way, in their own independent reality, is simply NOT supported by science. Quite the contrary.

It's not your grandma's universe. It never was only that. It is and was a massively entangled information-mediated multidimensional multiverse. And the brain is a massive quantum computer, perhaps. Information = energy.

It's easy to deny outright any information value to dreams, any reality to their scenes, without this world view.

With it, on must assume that dreams - especially anomalously vivid and unfamiliar ones - may reveal realities / worlds / realms just as fully real, just as deserving of respect, as our own - perhaps moreso.

Still, one is ignorant. Under such uncertainty, still, the best that one can do is to maintain a responsible attitude and a clear conscience, and seek out the best information.

And the worst one can do is to pretend that, and act as if, cruelty and recklessness in dream realms have no consequences.

There are surely things, possibilities, that should be denied, prevented. I have seen the carnage. So have some of you. And some of you have helped to cause it.

Denial of the possible reality of those scenes won't help to make them unreal, or to prevent them, if they are not unreal.

I don't deny that my or your dream scenes might sometimes (I doubt always) not be real by my own test at [#3] in my original post for this thread. But, equally, I also deny your ability to simply assume that they are never (even regularly) real, by the same definition, in any ethically significant way.

So. Affirm what you can. And deny what you can. But please don't assume that a denial is not also a form of affirmation - or that denial is more easily justifiable because based on what you don't know, rather than what you do.

PQ

Originally Posted by Licity

We only vaguely imagine while awake. While sleeping, you all of a sudden don't need to bother with handling sensory input and sending complex signals along motor neurons. The lucidity technique of V-WILD is hinged entirely on the fact that the brain can and will come up with a realistic experience nearly on demand.

OK. I take your point. Processing capacity might increase in sleep.

But my general point is that what you call "the fact that the brain can and will come up with a realistic experience nearly on demand" (emphasis supplied) is actually an assumption ... a hypothesis. It's not proven to be the whole answer.

But, as I read more about others' experiences here, I am starting to realize more clearly that not all dreams are the same.

So, there may be different degrees and variations, on a scale from "fully real" to fully "virtual". It would depend on the independence and intensity of the information. The more of both (not just either, alone), the more objective reality we could attribute to the experience.

Experience with sleep paralysis, where entities are proximately involved, suggests that the total reality of the possible phenomena may also vary between "here" and "there" ... "near and far".

I have clearly had beings in my body, with me, bolt up in bed and struggling to pull them out of my body, immediately on awakening from paralysis. "Who are you?", I asked, after I pulled his tough rubbery body first from my arms and then clear out of my own. "We are .... the essence ...of information", he said. You know me. "How are your ethics?", I asked.

Ku. New friends.



PQ

As a dentist I am a man of science, but this is a subject that I happen to differ with my colleagues with. I believe dream characters are real, though not in a conventional sense, but rather are part of a connection with someone else's unconscious mind.

Originally Posted by The Dentist ©

As a dentist I am a man of science, but this is a subject that I happen to differ with my colleagues with. I believe dream characters are real, though not in a conventional sense, but rather are part of a connection with someone else's unconscious mind.

So if I was to open a textbook studied by "conventional" dentists, what would the answer be. I just feel that as a "man of science", it's incumbent upon you present the dream ontology that is currently accepted by the majority of the dentistry community.