Thread: Wild's and OBE's (Question)

As before I mentioned Reality Fluctuations - you are not actually "out of body" and are not actually in the physical world.

Two words - Occam's Razor
Occam's razor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dont let your beliefs and the limitations of your current knowledge limit your notion of whats possible.

I agree, we don't know anything, indeed most know very little in the grand scheme of things

Letting your ignorance define the limits of an acceptable reality is bad SCIENCE;

but you are implying that believing stuff without evidence is better? Sure - you have experienced it, and that can be reason enough for you - you are free to believe whatever you want, however when you try to convince the rest of us that OBE's (in the magical/supernatural meaning) are possible the burden of proof lies on you. I do not claim "I know for a fact that OBE's are impossible", however I have no good reason to believe in them at this point.

which is unfortunately the norm.

actually no - people believe stuff without reason all the time - it's called superstition and religion.

You may say you wouldnt blindly trust what you saw but this is still a belief, whether its a belief in something being true or not.

disbelief is not a belief, it is a lack of a belief.

When you believe that you know, but do not, you cut yourself off from the possibility of EVER knowing.

If tomorrow scientists prove that OBE's are real or someone on this forum comes up with a very effective way of getting OBE's (indeed I'm sure there are some) then sure, I'll give it a shot - just give me a link However, I stipulate the opposite - that by believing so firmly in OBE's without good evidence it is you who cut yourself off from the ability to imagine that they could possibly just be brain chemistry and nothing more.

Further knowledge always lies outside the possibilities allowed by core beliefs and it is beyond your current intellectual reach, invisible to your SELF-LIMITED vision.

who said anything about limiting yourself to using just your vision. we have microscopes and all kinds of scientific instruments. What's wrong though, is saying "oh we are so limited we have no way of knowing so it must be true" - you could use that to justify any religion or superstition.

You simply cannot see beyond the walls you have constructed regardless of how hard you are trying to do exactly that and no matter how much you believe your vision is correct and unimpeded.

is my vision of reality correct? nope wouldn't count on it. we are very limited creatures and I reject your claim that I cannot see "beyond the walls" - however there is a difference between accepting new ideas and accepting delusion.

New discoveries in science never have and never will come from thinking you know it all and if you think you have all the answers then as mentioned, you will never get those actual answers.

um, science changes it's mind all the time - when new discoveries come up like evolution or the earth not being flat, it may take time but eventually science updates itself? Can the same be said about yourself?

To sit there and define a reality based solely on your own experience is utter ignorance.

then why do you do that then?

I am not asking you to believe me, I am simply suggesting that before you spout out your BELIEFS, you at least try to make them KNOWNS to yourself before you literally make a fool of yourself by claiming a comparative to people saying the world was flat just because they had experienced nothing else.

so to rephrase you want me to give OBE a shot? sure - gimme a tutorial I wanna see what all the fuss is about

Again, I do not "believe that OBE is not real", rather I (at this point in time) "lack a belief in OBE" - which is semantically very different since the first is a positive statement and something which is unwise to do since then the burden of proof would be on me to prove that OBE's aren't real, while in the second case, the one I've chose I simply at this point in time don't believe and since you are the one making the assertion it is up to you to prove it.

The fact is, you dont KNOW so dont make out that you do and if someone (like me) has had experience in something you havent, before you start claiming it false you need to try the experience yourself.

answered above

Gather your own experiential data, dont rely on mine - but dont say mine is invalid when you havent got any of your own. In general humans have a very limited view from where we are on this earth and by what we think. We should therefore be very careful not to constrain the possibilities we can grasp simply because we do not already know the answers - that is arrogance. I personally find it funny how every generation thinks they know it all. Early 20th century physicists were ready to stop science because they felt they knew it all - how ironic that people today think the same, even though lessons of the past have taught us otherwise.

totally agree

Originally Posted by yuriythebest

Two words - Occam's Razor

Thanks, I am familiar with Occam's Razor. The thing is just because something doesnt seem the simplest way to YOU, doesnt mean it actually ISNT the simplest way.

Originally Posted by yuriythebest

but you are implying that believing stuff without evidence is better? Sure - you have experienced it, and that can be reason enough for you - you are free to believe whatever you want, however when you try to convince the rest of us that OBE's (in the magical/supernatural meaning) are possible the burden of proof lies on you. I do not claim "I know for a fact that OBE's are impossible", however I have no good reason to believe in them at this point.

I am not in any way implying that believing stuff without evidence is better. You must have skipped over/ignored/chose not to read all the parts where I said DO NOT believe me, try for YOURSELF.

actually no - people believe stuff without reason all the time - it's called superstition and religion.

Again, I will stress I do not expect anyone to believe in anything, but I would recommend that before you create a belief you try to get your OWN evidence.

disbelief is not a belief, it is a lack of a belief.

Which when decided upon without any evidence for or against is still a belief either way.

If tomorrow scientists prove that OBE's are real or someone on this forum comes up with a very effective way of getting OBE's (indeed I'm sure there are some) then sure, I'll give it a shot - just give me a link

Go to The Astral Pulse - Index

However, I stipulate the opposite - that by believing so firmly in OBE's without good evidence it is you who cut yourself off from the ability to imagine that they could possibly just be brain chemistry and nothing more.

Again, I dont ask you or anyone to believe me, I just recommend you find out for yourselves.

who said anything about limiting yourself to using just your vision. we have microscopes and all kinds of scientific instruments. What's wrong though, is saying "oh we are so limited we have no way of knowing so it must be true" - you could use that to justify any religion or superstition.

I am not religious at all nor am I superstitious, but I would not be so ignorant as to say they definitely dont have cause to exist because I do not know either way. I can believe in them either existing or not but beliefs are not knowing.

is my vision of reality correct? nope wouldn't count on it. we are very limited creatures and I reject your claim that I cannot see "beyond the walls" - however there is a difference between accepting new ideas and accepting delusion.

I agree, but the only way to differentiate between them both in a scientific manner is to get experiential data and that is all I am try to get across - do not sit and say something doesnt exist because you havent experienced it no matter how crazy it sounds; gather evidence first. Try telling people in the 1500's that Lucid Dreaming was real and you would have been likely burned at the stake; why is it so difficult to grasp that in the future, people may look at people of 2010 and realise how ignorant we were?

um, science changes it's mind all the time - when new discoveries come up like evolution or the earth not being flat, it may take time but eventually science updates itself? Can the same be said about yourself?

Does that mean that before science discovered it, the earth was actually flat? Of course not. What science does is NOT make new discoveries, it simply shines a light on pre-existing facts. The earth was always round, regardless of whether people knew it or not.

then why do you do that then?

Again as I have said too many times now through your selective reading technique - I dont expect anyone to believe me, I am trying to encourage people to try themselves.

so to rephrase you want me to give OBE a shot? sure - gimme a tutorial I wanna see what all the fuss is about

Fantastic! As said above go to The Astral Pulse - Index - in my opinion the best forum. You can also check out a free ebook at Out-of-Body Experience (OBE) and also there is a respected author called Robert Peterson who published a book then made it free on his site - Out of Body Experiences: Keywords: OOBE, Astral Projection

Again, I do not "believe that OBE is not real", rather I (at this point in time) "lack a belief in OBE" - which is semantically very different since the first is a positive statement and something which is unwise to do since then the burden of proof would be on me to prove that OBE's aren't real, while in the second case, the one I've chose I simply at this point in time don't believe and since you are the one making the assertion it is up to you to prove it.

Well at least this is a step forward in that you acknowledge you dont know for a fact. Also, let me point out that I do not care either way if you or anyone else gets proof, and therefore I dont feel the need to prove anything to anyone. Real is real whether or not you believe it. What I would like is to be able to help anyone who wants to have this experience and to open peoples eyes to the fact that we do not know everything and people should stop acting like they do without trying something themselves.

I came to this forum because based on my experience, Lucid Dreaming and OBE/Astral Projection are the same thing, just different points on the consciousness continuum and I want to learn more. I have to say I have been very surprised to see people actually not believing in OBE/AP when they are already doing it by LDing and even more surprised to see people actively refuting the reality of OBE/AP when 100 years ago Lucid Dreaming was probably even more obscure than Projection!

totally agree

I really do hope you get your own experiences.