Wild's and OBE's (Question)

[iFatal]

I'm kinda confused about Wild's and OBE's. My question is... are Wild's and OBE's the same? I'm thinking that the only difference between Wild's and OBE's is that in an OBE you wake up in your non-physical bedroom but in a Wild you are in a strange place. And another question is. If you were in an OBE, could you do the same things in a OBE that you would be able to do in a lucid dream?

[Ladusence]

In my understanding of the subject (very little) OBE means that you are in your real room, while your body is still laying down. So you are really out of your body, which means you can fly around and stuff but probaly not change the whole room. In a WILD you do quite the opposite, you go inside your "body" to dream about your room, which is all in your dreams/imagination and that means you can do anything. In my opinion I think that people who believe in OBE just have them mixed up with a really vivid dream, but I try to be open for anything though .

[Elucive]

You're going to get a lot of different answers here. In my opinion, though, they're the same thing.

[DarkenedReality]

From what I've read (I've never actually had an OBE, at least one that I've confirmed), the difference is that in a lucid dream, you are dreaming, and in an OBE, you're more of in a short coma, so to speak. I'm sure you know what a lucid dream is...Taking Ladusence's explanation sounds good to me. You essentially go inside yourself, and your imagination takes over. You are still connected to your physical body in the sense that you are still affected by external stimuli (wind, sounds, people touching you, etc). In an OBE, think more of astral projection. Your consciousness separates from your corporeal body, but they are both in the same plane of existence. That is, you aren't affected by external forces acting upon your body (for instance, you can be nudged by someone and arent as likely to snap back into consciousness like you would if you were dreaming), and instead of being able to change the world around you, you can only merely observe the world around you, as it is really happening. You change to a third person perspective, from what I've heard. I think of it this way...as it's a movie set. For a lucid dream, you are the producer. You can change any aspect. The lighting, the angles at which you view, the characters, the 'script'... For an OBE, you're only the camera-man. You can change the angles, and see everything as the movie takes it's course, but that's about it. I hope this helps? Again, this is only what I've learned...It may not be true.

[stjimmy]

Whenever I've WILDed (I've done it only twice), the dreams have started with false awakenings inside my bedroom. I do a RC and then get up, but find that I'm in an exact replica of the real world, which means empty, gloomy streets, since it's the middle of the night. Both times I haven't been able to change it or fly away somewhere else. Could this have anything to do with what you guys are saying? I wan't to be able to go to happy places.

[DarkenedReality]

It could be. I suppose it depends on your beliefs on the subject. I'm assuming that's just more of a semi-lucid dream. I was always under the impression that you could see your corporeal body during. A good example of what I believe an OBE is, a report I read about a supposed experience a few years ago. Someone was put under during a surgery. I can't remember the time frame, but soon after they were unconscious, they became conscious again, but this time from a third person view. They could see what was happening to their body, and hear the doctors talking, but they couldn't feel it or affect the situation in any way. Supposedly there have even been instances where the person experiencing the OBE has, after coming to, recited instances that happened while they were (for lack of better wording), unconscious.

[SystemsLock]

OBEs aren't real. Any discussions otherwise belong in the Beyond Dreaming section. Thank you.

[DarkenedReality]

OBEs aren't real. Do you have infallible proof? Either way, the OP was asking a legitimate question, and as I'm assuming they know what a lucid dream is and what is possible, I was trying to fill in the blank of the other half with information (rather, thoughts) I've collected... As to the other question (which I regretfully forgot about earlier), in an (alleged) OBE, you can't affect the environment at all, and in a lucid dream you can affect it in any way shape or form (in variable degrees depending on your control).

[AstralBeginning]

I have had both OBE's and Lucid Dreams. OBE's are VERY real and I promise you that all you need is to experience one to know this. If you think they arent real then you simply have not had one and it is ignorant to make such claims without having one - you simply cannot say they arent real. The best you can claim is that you *think* they arent real - and I would just suggest you try something I am about to suggest which is easy if you can LD. Just to set the stage, dreams, LDs, OBEs and Astral Projections are all essentially the same - they are simply different FOCUSES of your consciousness. Think of consciousness as a continuum and at any given ptime you are focused at point along this continuum, which is normally your physical body. When you dream (just a normal dream) your focus moves to another point on this continuum but you arent aware of it. When you LD, the same things happen but something makes you aware within a dream and so you know you are elsewhere on the continuum but dont remember how you got there. When you WILD(or what I call phasing) you are aware of the transition along the continuum and you follow it consciously. The common thing people think about when the term OBE is used is actually EXITING your body, and indeed that is what it feels like - but I do not believe this to be the case. A guy named Frank Kepple over at my favorite site astralpulse.com (look at astralpulse.com/frankkepple.html) was a pioneer in phasing. In his explorations he categories various focus levels of consciousness (FoC1/2/3/4). FoC1 - Physical Reality {Buffer Zone / RTZ here} FoC2 - Complete Subjective Subconsciousness (this is where Dreams and Lucid Dreams Take Place and standard phasing) FoC3 - Objective Consciousness (this is where people go when they die and when they Astral Project) - events taking place here can be and ARE verified by multiple observers. FoC4 - Higher Reality When you "exit" your body you are just focusing your awareness on the buffer zone between F1 and F2. I have done this many times and verified real things. By saying you believe in LD's but not OBE's is really laughable to anyone who has experienced them because they are both simply just different focuses of the same awareness. I dont beleive the above example is a false awakening, I think its an RTZ OBE. False Awakenings however ARE OBE's, you just arent aware of it. If you think its a FA then you are already too aware for it to be a FA. If you can LD (which I assume most people here can do, especially those claiming OBE's arent real) then try this. It works every time for me but can sometimes take practice. When you become lucid do your deepening exercises if any etc. Once you are relaxed stop for a second. Think about your physical body and the desire to have an OBE. What happens next for me is that I am "sucked" back to my body. At this point DO NOT MOVE. Within 2-5 seconds you should get a buzzing feeling all over your body and then possibly noises. I wait til these have subsided and I simply roll over and "leave" my body. This is the easist way to have a RTZ OBE, especially for people who can already LD. There are too many people in the world today who set limitations on their own level of knowledge by imposing negative belief structures without actually bothering to learn, which only serve to hinder actual truth. Always stay open minded and certainly a level of skepticism is good, but dont make a belief without actually trying to find out the truth yourself. I dont expect anyone to believe what I say but I do encourage you to actually TRY before saying something is or isnt real. Being part of an LD forum you are already in an area alot of the world do not believe in. Dont become an idiot like them by doing the same as them and not believing something just because you havent experienced.

[stjimmy]

So in terms of the actual experience, the main difference is that in an OBE you are unable to control your environment an in a LD you are? If so, how would one go about changing an OBE into a LD in order to be able to exercise such control?

[AstralBeginning]

If you are specifically talking about a RTZ OBE then the ability to change surroundings doesnt APPEAR as easy as in an LD, simply because you see everything as how it actually IS is real waking life, however it is not real waking life - it is a bit further along the consciousness continuum. A common thing to happen while on an RTZ OBE are reality fluctuations - slight changes in what you see when in your physical focus - things such as reversed rooms or items from your past appearing in your bedroom etc. These occur much in the same way you can change your environment in an LD but are normally not conscious choices but nevertheless are still controlled by thought. Dont forget LD/OBE/AP are all the same thing - changes of where your awareness is focused. I cant answer fully in detail because I simply dont know the answer yet, but YES you can change things in your environment but its not as easy as in an LD, and I think this has to do with belief. If you see a crazy landscape with unicorns and fairies, its seems more logical that you can affect your environment because you see it as a fabrication of mind, but if you see your bedroom as it actually appears, its harder to imagine changing it because you have stronger links to its appearance through your physical reality- if you know what I mean?

[stjimmy]

If you see a crazy landscape with unicorns and fairies, its seems more logical that you can affect your environment because you see it as a fabrication of mind, but if you see your bedroom as it actually appears, its harder to imagine changing it because you have stronger links to its appearance through your physical reality Yes, this is exactly what is happening to me when I attempt WILDing and experience false awakenings inside my bedroom, as opposed to when I've DILDe during random dreams.

[iFatal]

Oh ok I get it now... thanks for all of the answers

[SystemsLock]

Do you have infallible proof?. Technicality, no. But If I were to say, for example, that there existed an entire galaxy (of which man is yet to discover) that was made entirely of cheese, would you believe me? Unlikely. Then again it would also be quite difficult to prove infallibly that such a galaxy does not exist either. The only reasonable claim would be that all science has learned so far points to the fact such a galaxy could not exist (which is a much more legitimate assumption than a galaxy made of cheese). The same can be said for OBEs and other paranormal activity, why begin with a groundless assumption? However, as much as I love chatting, this discussion really doesn't belong here.

[DarkenedReality]

this discussion really doesn't belong here. Duly noted, and I enjoyed your example

[stjimmy]

Ahhh, a galaxy of cheese I have got to visit that during my next alleged OBE

[AstralBeginning]

Technicality, no. But If I were to say, for example, that there existed an entire galaxy (of which man is yet to discover) that was made entirely of cheese, would you believe me? Unlikely. Then again it would also be quite difficult to prove infallibly that such a galaxy does not exist either. The only reasonable claim would be that all science has learned so far points to the fact such a galaxy could not exist (which is a much more legitimate assumption than a galaxy made of cheese). The same can be said for OBEs and other paranormal activity, why begin with a groundless assumption? However, as much as I love chatting, this discussion really doesn't belong here. You clearly havent looked into the scientific studies of OBE as much as you have about our galaxy being made of cheese. I suggest you read some good information on OBE and most certainly try them before you make claims. And im sure the mods here are capable of moving this thread to its correct place.

[yuriythebest]

You clearly havent looked into the scientific studies of OBE as much as you have about our galaxy being made of cheese. I suggest you read some good information on OBE and most certainly try them before you make claims. And im sure the mods here are capable of moving this thread to its correct place. at this point there is simply no good evidence for OBE's - all the "respected" studies proved very little indeed. My 2 cents: 1. WILD/lucid dream/etc = you know you are dreaming 2. OBE = you think your body is dreaming/asleep while you are outside of it, when in fact you are still inside your mind, thinking you are outside.

[AstralBeginning]

at this point there is simply no good evidence for OBE's - all the "respected" studies proved very little indeed. My 2 cents: 1. WILD/lucid dream/etc = you know you are dreaming 2. OBE = you think your body is dreaming/asleep while you are outside of it, when in fact you are still inside your mind, thinking you are outside. When you have an OBE (which I fully encourage you try to do using the method I have mentioned) THEN come back and tell me they arent real. When you have one, that will be all the evidence you need.

[yuriythebest]

When you have one, that will be all the evidence you need. no. I wouldn't so blindly trust what I saw. There have been experiments where people who were "proficient" in OBE slept under observation, with a piece of paper with some numbers or something just out of reach. guess what - none of em could tell what those numbers/words were. I once saw God in a dream - guess what, still atheist

[AstralBeginning]

no. I wouldn't so blindly trust what I saw. There have been experiments where people who were "proficient" in OBE slept under observation, with a piece of paper with some numbers or something just out of reach. guess what - none of em could tell what those numbers/words were. I once saw God in a dream - guess what, still atheist As before I mentioned Reality Fluctuations - you are not actually "out of body" and are not actually in the physical world. Dont let your beliefs and the limitations of your current knowledge limit your notion of whats possible. Letting your ignorance define the limits of an acceptable reality is bad SCIENCE; which is unfortunately the norm. You may say you wouldnt blindly trust what you saw but this is still a belief, whether its a belief in something being true or not. When you believe that you know, but do not, you cut yourself off from the possibility of EVER knowing. Further knowledge always lies outside the possibilities allowed by core beliefs and it is beyond your current intellectual reach, invisible to your SELF-LIMITED vision. You simply cannot see beyond the walls you have constructed regardless of how hard you are trying to do exactly that and no matter how much you believe your vision is correct and unimpeded. New discoveries in science never have and never will come from thinking you know it all and if you think you have all the answers then as mentioned, you will never get those actual answers. To sit there and define a reality based solely on your own experience is utter ignorance. I am not asking you to believe me, I am simply suggesting that before you spout out your BELIEFS, you at least try to make them KNOWNS to yourself before you literally make a fool of yourself by claiming a comparative to people saying the world was flat just because they had experienced nothing else. The fact is, you dont KNOW so dont make out that you do and if someone (like me) has had experience in something you havent, before you start claiming it false you need to try the experience yourself. Gather your own experiential data, dont rely on mine - but dont say mine is invalid when you havent got any of your own. In general humans have a very limited view from where we are on this earth and by what we think. We should therefore be very careful not to constrain the possibilities we can grasp simply because we do not already know the answers - that is arrogance. I personally find it funny how every generation thinks they know it all. Early 20th century physicists were ready to stop science because they felt they knew it all - how ironic that people today think the same, even though lessons of the past have taught us otherwise. - paraphrased parts from My Big TOE

[yuriythebest]

As before I mentioned Reality Fluctuations - you are not actually "out of body" and are not actually in the physical world. Two words - Occam's Razor Occam's razor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Dont let your beliefs and the limitations of your current knowledge limit your notion of whats possible. I agree, we don't know anything, indeed most know very little in the grand scheme of things Letting your ignorance define the limits of an acceptable reality is bad SCIENCE; but you are implying that believing stuff without evidence is better? Sure - you have experienced it, and that can be reason enough for you - you are free to believe whatever you want, however when you try to convince the rest of us that OBE's (in the magical/supernatural meaning) are possible the burden of proof lies on you. I do not claim "I know for a fact that OBE's are impossible", however I have no good reason to believe in them at this point. which is unfortunately the norm. actually no - people believe stuff without reason all the time - it's called superstition and religion. You may say you wouldnt blindly trust what you saw but this is still a belief, whether its a belief in something being true or not. disbelief is not a belief, it is a lack of a belief. When you believe that you know, but do not, you cut yourself off from the possibility of EVER knowing. If tomorrow scientists prove that OBE's are real or someone on this forum comes up with a very effective way of getting OBE's (indeed I'm sure there are some) then sure, I'll give it a shot - just give me a link However, I stipulate the opposite - that by believing so firmly in OBE's without good evidence it is you who cut yourself off from the ability to imagine that they could possibly just be brain chemistry and nothing more. Further knowledge always lies outside the possibilities allowed by core beliefs and it is beyond your current intellectual reach, invisible to your SELF-LIMITED vision. who said anything about limiting yourself to using just your vision. we have microscopes and all kinds of scientific instruments. What's wrong though, is saying "oh we are so limited we have no way of knowing so it must be true" - you could use that to justify any religion or superstition. You simply cannot see beyond the walls you have constructed regardless of how hard you are trying to do exactly that and no matter how much you believe your vision is correct and unimpeded. is my vision of reality correct? nope wouldn't count on it. we are very limited creatures and I reject your claim that I cannot see "beyond the walls" - however there is a difference between accepting new ideas and accepting delusion. New discoveries in science never have and never will come from thinking you know it all and if you think you have all the answers then as mentioned, you will never get those actual answers. um, science changes it's mind all the time - when new discoveries come up like evolution or the earth not being flat, it may take time but eventually science updates itself? Can the same be said about yourself? To sit there and define a reality based solely on your own experience is utter ignorance. then why do you do that then? I am not asking you to believe me, I am simply suggesting that before you spout out your BELIEFS, you at least try to make them KNOWNS to yourself before you literally make a fool of yourself by claiming a comparative to people saying the world was flat just because they had experienced nothing else. so to rephrase you want me to give OBE a shot? sure - gimme a tutorial I wanna see what all the fuss is about Again, I do not "believe that OBE is not real", rather I (at this point in time) "lack a belief in OBE" - which is semantically very different since the first is a positive statement and something which is unwise to do since then the burden of proof would be on me to prove that OBE's aren't real, while in the second case, the one I've chose I simply at this point in time don't believe and since you are the one making the assertion it is up to you to prove it. The fact is, you dont KNOW so dont make out that you do and if someone (like me) has had experience in something you havent, before you start claiming it false you need to try the experience yourself. answered above Gather your own experiential data, dont rely on mine - but dont say mine is invalid when you havent got any of your own. In general humans have a very limited view from where we are on this earth and by what we think. We should therefore be very careful not to constrain the possibilities we can grasp simply because we do not already know the answers - that is arrogance. I personally find it funny how every generation thinks they know it all. Early 20th century physicists were ready to stop science because they felt they knew it all - how ironic that people today think the same, even though lessons of the past have taught us otherwise. totally agree

[AstralBeginning]

Two words - Occam's Razor Thanks, I am familiar with Occam's Razor. The thing is just because something doesnt seem the simplest way to YOU, doesnt mean it actually ISNT the simplest way. but you are implying that believing stuff without evidence is better? Sure - you have experienced it, and that can be reason enough for you - you are free to believe whatever you want, however when you try to convince the rest of us that OBE's (in the magical/supernatural meaning) are possible the burden of proof lies on you. I do not claim "I know for a fact that OBE's are impossible", however I have no good reason to believe in them at this point. I am not in any way implying that believing stuff without evidence is better. You must have skipped over/ignored/chose not to read all the parts where I said DO NOT believe me, try for YOURSELF. actually no - people believe stuff without reason all the time - it's called superstition and religion. Again, I will stress I do not expect anyone to believe in anything, but I would recommend that before you create a belief you try to get your OWN evidence. disbelief is not a belief, it is a lack of a belief. Which when decided upon without any evidence for or against is still a belief either way. If tomorrow scientists prove that OBE's are real or someone on this forum comes up with a very effective way of getting OBE's (indeed I'm sure there are some) then sure, I'll give it a shot - just give me a link Go to The Astral Pulse - Index However, I stipulate the opposite - that by believing so firmly in OBE's without good evidence it is you who cut yourself off from the ability to imagine that they could possibly just be brain chemistry and nothing more. Again, I dont ask you or anyone to believe me, I just recommend you find out for yourselves. who said anything about limiting yourself to using just your vision. we have microscopes and all kinds of scientific instruments. What's wrong though, is saying "oh we are so limited we have no way of knowing so it must be true" - you could use that to justify any religion or superstition. I am not religious at all nor am I superstitious, but I would not be so ignorant as to say they definitely dont have cause to exist because I do not know either way. I can believe in them either existing or not but beliefs are not knowing. is my vision of reality correct? nope wouldn't count on it. we are very limited creatures and I reject your claim that I cannot see "beyond the walls" - however there is a difference between accepting new ideas and accepting delusion. I agree, but the only way to differentiate between them both in a scientific manner is to get experiential data and that is all I am try to get across - do not sit and say something doesnt exist because you havent experienced it no matter how crazy it sounds; gather evidence first. Try telling people in the 1500's that Lucid Dreaming was real and you would have been likely burned at the stake; why is it so difficult to grasp that in the future, people may look at people of 2010 and realise how ignorant we were? um, science changes it's mind all the time - when new discoveries come up like evolution or the earth not being flat, it may take time but eventually science updates itself? Can the same be said about yourself? Does that mean that before science discovered it, the earth was actually flat? Of course not. What science does is NOT make new discoveries, it simply shines a light on pre-existing facts. The earth was always round, regardless of whether people knew it or not. then why do you do that then? Again as I have said too many times now through your selective reading technique - I dont expect anyone to believe me, I am trying to encourage people to try themselves. so to rephrase you want me to give OBE a shot? sure - gimme a tutorial I wanna see what all the fuss is about Fantastic! As said above go to The Astral Pulse - Index - in my opinion the best forum. You can also check out a free ebook at Out-of-Body Experience (OBE) and also there is a respected author called Robert Peterson who published a book then made it free on his site - Out of Body Experiences: Keywords: OOBE, Astral Projection Again, I do not "believe that OBE is not real", rather I (at this point in time) "lack a belief in OBE" - which is semantically very different since the first is a positive statement and something which is unwise to do since then the burden of proof would be on me to prove that OBE's aren't real, while in the second case, the one I've chose I simply at this point in time don't believe and since you are the one making the assertion it is up to you to prove it. Well at least this is a step forward in that you acknowledge you dont know for a fact. Also, let me point out that I do not care either way if you or anyone else gets proof, and therefore I dont feel the need to prove anything to anyone. Real is real whether or not you believe it. What I would like is to be able to help anyone who wants to have this experience and to open peoples eyes to the fact that we do not know everything and people should stop acting like they do without trying something themselves. I came to this forum because based on my experience, Lucid Dreaming and OBE/Astral Projection are the same thing, just different points on the consciousness continuum and I want to learn more. I have to say I have been very surprised to see people actually not believing in OBE/AP when they are already doing it by LDing and even more surprised to see people actively refuting the reality of OBE/AP when 100 years ago Lucid Dreaming was probably even more obscure than Projection! totally agree I really do hope you get your own experiences.

[SystemsLock]

For the record I totally saw this argument coming. Let's say for example OBEs and other astrological events are in fact possible. Sure, it would be hard to believe at first, but it's hard to argue with honest research too. All it would take would be a few credible labs to publish some kind of results (of which they undoubtedly have tried). Do you really think then they would just hand it off to the local tarot readers? Do you have any idea the kind of competition that goes on in the scientific community? I do. People would be diving to publish results! Grants, thesis papers, large scale trials, the whole deal. Not to mention the capitalistic impact and media frenzy! Unfortunately, there have been no such results. Many a study has gone nowhere. The few with anything were quickly discredited and that's pretty much been the end of it. I think that a lot of people feel that the scientific community is "out to get" the astrological community. In reality I think its the other way around. People want astrology to be real. When faced with an ultimatum however that want overpowers their rationality. I'm not mocking you, you're just wrong.

[AstralBeginning]

For the record I totally saw this argument coming. Let's say for example OBEs and other astrological events are in fact possible. Sure, it would be hard to believe at first, but it's hard to argue with honest research too. All it would take would be a few credible labs to publish some kind of results (of which they undoubtedly have tried). Do you really think then they would just hand it off to the local tarot readers? Do you have any idea the kind of competition that goes on in the scientific community? I do. People would be diving to publish results! Grants, thesis papers, large scale trials, the whole deal. Not to mention the capitalistic impact and media frenzy! Unfortunately, there have been no such results. Many a study has gone nowhere. The few with anything were quickly discredited and that's pretty much been the end of it. I think that a lot of people feel that the scientific community is "out to get" the astrological community. In reality I think its the other way around. People want astrology to be real. When faced with an ultimatum however that want overpowers their rationality. I'm not mocking you, you're just wrong. You cant say I am wrong just because YOU have a lack of experience. Find out for yourself. Attempt OBE's. As I mentioned either earlier in this thread or another thread - read a book called My Big TOE by Thomas Campbell. He is a nuclear physicist. Dont make the mistake of assuming just because science hasnt yet discovered something that it is not there. Additionally, you would be wise to also not assume that things do not exist beyond which current science can pin down and put in a lab.