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Please NO MYSTICAL STUFF in this thread. Thank you.
Hey everyone :)
I keep reading in topics about people talking about OBE as if it's something entirely different from lucid dreaming, as if you can practice for having OBEs and Lucid Dreams seperately.
From what I thought (I have no clue if I'm right, which is the reason I'm creating this topic) OBE was a lucid dream where you could fly around and see your body lying down there. If so, it's a lucid dream like any other right?
Well, the dilemma lies in this question. When you are out of your body, are you dreaming? Are you in the dreaming plane? If so, then you know you are dreaming and it fits the definition for a lucid dream. But if it is a different plane, where you are not dreaming but actually going to a different plane, then I think it is something different.
I have read some cases where a person was in OBE state and they traveled to a certain place to move an object, this places them in this realm, Earth, not the dreaming realm. So this leaves me a bit baffled, but it is not that important anyway.
Some people are of the opinion that the state of OBE is where you are in a different type of body where it is easy to fly, like you are ghost or something.
OBE is 'mystical' stuff in it's own. Either A) you are on the astral plane, and you are not dreaming, or B) you are in SP and can enter a dream from the OBE.
In an OBE, you don't always fly around and see yourself.
An OBE in my opinion is fake.
Go look in Beyind dreaming. It basically were you can see the future and other crap.
Can anyone describe an OBE?
From what I'm gathering, I was right and an OBE is pretty much a lucid dream...
Its beyond a dream.Quote:
Originally Posted by vmenge
And like i said i believe that its fake.
Many people have had it, in fact for thousands of years. I personally have had one, my body exited my life body very quickly but I did see glimpse of it, it felt as though my body separated into four pieces, one (the actual one) was lying down in normal position, the other three were right above it and in the posture of getting up, they were sort of transparent (maybe had some colors of the rainbow).Quote:
Originally Posted by dakotahnok
As I exited from my body, I suddenly was tossed in the air.
uhh, second thought, maybe the above does not prove it. But the biggest proof I have heard of was about a guy who performed it and then out of his body, he went and moved an object that was placed for him in front of an audience.
Sounds like a magic trick. Dont ya think?Quote:
Originally Posted by elucid
Hmm, cant disagree with it nor agree. I would say to give OBEs a try and find out if you need proof. That is the best way to prove it, by experiencing it.Quote:
Sounds like a magic trick. Dont ya think?
No from what I have read they are different, LD seems to be by far more easier achieve than an OBE.
OBE is usually characterized as a floating sensation where the individual appears to be outside looking down at their own body, in many cases it has been reported that they may see a silver cord connecting the two bodies. OBE's claim to be able to travel anywhere they wish, be it spying on the next door neighbor or traveling to another planet. It is said that they can observe but usually cannot interact with others, unless they go to a higher plane of existence(but that's going into the mystical which you don't want to know). I would say that OBE has more in common with remote viewing than a LD.
In an LD however you may have awareness and control in a dream state but the scenery will change, sometimes randomly, you are in control of yourself but that does not necessarily mean that you are control of the dream. For example your in a LD and decide you want to be instantly taken to the great wall of China, it might not happen. In an LD you can interact with object, characters and the world.
So if I could sum it up, there is more interaction for the individual in an LD, while we get more control over where we can go and what we see in a OBE.
The traditional way of achieving an OBE is through stilling the mind of thoughts with meditation, but an individual has to achieve a certain level in their meditation, then it is only possible to induce an OBE. Either that or you can run across a busy street and have a NDE.
The WILD technique is almost the same as normal meditation with regards to relaxing the body but while traditional meditation may still the mind by not putting much importance on thoughts and images, WILD relies on those thoughts and images to enter a dream like state.
If you look up lucid dream on wikipedia, the first image "The secret of the golden flower" actually depicts someone having an OBE, notice that he is in meditation.
Well, since I mostly ignore mystical stuff since they can't be proven...
Scientifically speaking, OBE sounds like a Lucid Dream to me that can be hampered by subconscious thoughts about you know, OBEs.
As in, you believe it subconsciously that you'll see a silver string connecting you to your body and that you'll be in your astral form or whatever, but it's actually a dream that's you don't have complete control because you don't really believe it to be a dream, but to be an OBE.
Does anyone else have similar thoughts? I really don't believe in mystical stuff though, so sorry for OBE supporters, I'm not trying to offend you :)
And thus, to you it always will be. That's how it works. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by dakotahnok
-K
Dont worry your not offending anyone :D . If you believe an OBE is the same as an LD thats fine, its not like I am trying to change your beliefs, you just asked for the differences and they were given.
I disagree, it all depends on the subject. Of course, mystical stuff very much seems personal and it is proven in that level. The biggest proof of mystical stuff is the "miracles" that become witnessed such as disappearances of tress, or materializations of stuff out of thin air, etc. I suggest you read the book, "The Holographic Universe", it is very scientific and mystical.Quote:
Well, since I mostly ignore mystical stuff since they can't be proven...
I've had what many describe as a typical OBE: vibrations, floating out and above the body, moving through the wall into next doors house etc. My personal conclusion was that it was the effects of sleep paralysis, which I experienced because I remained conscious while my body shutdown for sleep.
Something to realise is that even if OBE's are just WILD's, people who practice with OBE's still experience stuff. So with that in mind it would be foolish to simply discard anything related to OBE's as useless. Many OBE techniques might actually be really great WILD techniques.
And another thing to realise is your question is a little self defeating. OBE's are pretty 'mystical' by nature so if you want to get a balanced view of peoples opinions it's best not to ban mystical talk from the thread =P
well I can't say I believe in OBEs or not because they seem kinda starnge to me for that to happen but there is also evidence for it to be real. Ive read about a guy who would have an OBE whenever he was being tortured for some reason. One time it happened he was able to see somthing that was happening somewhere else at the same time and when he reported it it turned out to be something that really happened. Some people are said to be able to leave their bodies and retrieve information and then go back to there bodies and that wouldnt be able to be done in a dream. My grandma told me that my grandpa told her about him having an OBE in the middle of a poker game while awake.
Dreams are much less stable than any reports of OBEs.
Ok, I haven't read many of the other replies, but I will tell it to you like this:
An OBE is an "Out of Body Experience." Inherently, there is no difference between OBE and a dream, because an OBE is an "Experience where you perceive life from outside of your physical body." So, even if you are dreaming that you are outside of your body, you are having an out of body experience.
A lucid dream is a dream wherein you know you are dreaming. So an OBE is not a lucid dream unless you know you are dreaming.
But (as far as my own personal opinion) I believe that an OBE is just a dream (not a lucid dream) that gives you the impression of leaving your physical body.
Not at all... :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Waterknight
Same here. It's the most plausible and logical explanation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
I have to ask people like Vmenge and Oneironaut how many books they've read on OBE/Astral Projection before drawing the conclusions they have.
If you say 0, I can't take you seriously.
If you say at least one, then you should tell us what book you read and why you disagree with the author.
I've read several. I've also dedicated daily time and effort to exploring the phenomena. My experiences not only match many in the books I've read, they've also matched others' experiences on this board.
Some of us have legitimate reasons for believing what we do, but this is one of those things that CAN'T really be proven. You either experience it and understand, or don't. And disbelief in and of itself is a huge detriment to the exploration of altered states of consciousness.
In the end, though, we can't be deterred from our course. We simply wish others would take some actual time and effort to exploring the phenomena themselves for their own sake. Ultimately, those of us that are having legitimate OBE's (and beyond) don't really care what others think. Our own experience is our evidence.
-K
That's actually astral projection, which would be in the realm of "mystial stuff". It suggests that a person ("person" being their conciousness) can leave the physical body and inhabit a sort of energy body known as the astral body, at which point the person is no longer experiencing the physical plane but the astral plane. This is a very specific term, and (if it exists) is one type of OBE.Quote:
Originally Posted by vmenge
The term "out of body experience" is a much more general and scientific term. It does not imply any reason behind the experience, mystical or otherwise (i.e. calling something an OBE does not imply the person's conciousness actually left their body in some sort of spirit or energy body, or any other attempt at an objective explanation). It is simply a term for the subjective experience of seeming to see one's self and surroundings from a point outside one's own body. Many people report having OBE's during near-death experiences, in situations such as serious car crashes or complicated surgery. Personally, I feel it has more to do with an odd functioning of the brain than anything else. Imagine there's a security camera on your wall pointed at you and your surroundings. Now close your eyes and try to visualize the view from that camera. There's no need to judge OBE's as real or fake, because the term is just describing a subjective experience. The idea of astral projection, however, goes a step further, and one can easily argue for or against them. Just don't get the two terms mixed up.
First off, that's like saying "If you don't believe in God, and you haven't read the Bible, I can't take you seriously."Quote:
Originally Posted by Ketsuyume
I haven't read any actual books on the phenomenon (unless you want to count The Holographic Universe, which touches on the subject), but I've read plenty of texts. (Information doesn't just come from books. I'm sure you know this.) I also do not disbelieve in the possibility of many psychic phenomena. I simply have not been convinced. There is a difference. I've read a lot of Radin's work on PSI, and have been surprised on many of the findings. I've read a lot on the military's remote viewing practices, and have been interested in many of the findings. I've read a lot of David Bohm's work on the Implicate/Explicate Order of the universe and Holomovement - which, so far, I've found to be the most concise, scientific theory on the possibility of PSI. I've had questionable experiences with the phenomenon, myself, but have had nothing that solidly convinces me that the phenomenon is, unequivocally, real.
And I have heard (and read) plenty of stories about people's experiences - some believable, some less than so. In that same vein, I can't take seriously anyone that says such a phenomenon 'can't be proven', because that is a slap in the face to science (which is also detriment to the exploration of altered states of consciousness), itself. Such a phenomenon can be proven, if it is real. The problem is that most people who want the phenomenon to be real are less likely to account for the times when their experiences are inconsistent with - and/or contradictory to - their biases. That is why, in something such as this, I take personal accounts with a grain of salt. There are people who believe that every dream is a trip to the Astral Plane. Their 'experiences' are their own evidence for it. As a very adept dreamer, myself, I find it hard to believe that I'm traveling to some undiscovered dimension in the multiverse, and having a battle to the death against The Shredder, along with the other Ninja Turtles. It takes a little more than an experience of something, to cause me to accept any given concept as reality.
Lastly, I would say your last two sentences sum it up quite nicely:
I don't really care what others think about my position on the matter, either. I have had my own "unexplained" experiences. I have spent much of my time researching the metaphysical (most of which was done to counter hard-boiled skeptics), and I have drawn my own conclusions. The over-arching conclusion that I have come to, at this point, is that - while I don't believe it isn't possible - I have yet to have confirmation. And, unlike so many who recount their "legitimate" OBE's, I don't take every 'mystical' experience as confirmation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ketsuyume
If an atheist wanted to intellectually engage a believer on the topic of Christianity, it WOULD be hard to take them seriously unless they've done some sort of research... it wouldn't have to be the Bible, or... fair enough... any books for that matter, but I would expect anyone who wants to say, "this idea us bullshit." wold have reasons to support their claim aside from saying, "well, because it's bullshit."Quote:
First off, that's like saying "If you don't believe in God, and you haven't read the Bible, I can't take you seriously."
Aside from that, I think you've made a fair assessment. I don't mean to discredit intellectuals on this board who have drawn conclusions counter to my own. I expect that to happen because it seems we live in a VERY subjective universe. I've just seen enough people (both believers and non-believers), discredit... a lot of things, simply because they feel like it CAN'T make any sense.
-K
Also, I don't mean to discredit science. Without science we'd be cave men still. Our evolution has come a long way because we're becoming awesome at using our brains to unravel everything and figure out how it works.
But I do believe some things just can't be proven... or rather, scientifically proven... because they are in their very nature, nothing more than experiences.
--K
Agreed. I was just highlighting that their knowledge of God and/or Christianity could be a pretty fair understanding of the concepts, without having read the Bible, itself. But, yes, I also get upset with people who discredit things without, at least, putting some thought/research into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ketsuyume
Well, thank you. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ketsuyume
I agree with this, to some extent. However, I think many people make the mistake of confusing subjective and objective experience. I believe in OBEs. I've had plenty of them, as I'm sure most of us on this board have. The folly comes when people interchange OBE and Astral Projection. It is why threads like this pop up. OoBE's are, at their core, subjective. You cannot tell someone that they have not had an OBE, because they were the ones who experienced it. However, a claim that someone Astrally Projects is another thing, entirely. That means they are claiming that their consciousness physically left their body, and was able to perceive an actual, absolute plane.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ketsuyume
One is a subjective claim. The other doesn't just flirt with objectivity. It assumes it.
So, when people get confused about OBE/AP/LDing, it is largely because of people making the claims that their OBEs are actually APs. Such claims do require proof, if they are to be taken seriously, and (as many of us, who experiment with altered states of consciousness could attest to) experiences, much like appearances, can be misleading.
I believe that, if AP is real, it can be proven. One of the caveats to AP is that people are said to be able to perceive the physical realm, outside of space and time. This is a quantifiable property, if it is true. The right scientific approach could definitely prove it. What is missing is a sound methodology and, perhaps at this time, the tools.
I completely agree. I could get into theories about the government being aware of APing for a while and how they're doing everything in their power to make sure people think it CAN'T be proven while secretly using it themselves, but that's another topic entirely. ;)
I do believe that as we continue to evolve, science and "metaphysics" (which could just be another way to say.... unexplainable phenomena), will find themselves traveling down the same road.
You'll almost never hear a scientist use the words "astral projection". One reason is that most scientists obviously don't believe in it, and another big reason is that if they did use the words in lectures and papers they would be ridiculed throughout the scientific community because the words have a connection with the mystical. If we used that scientific reasoning on something like a tomato a scientist would say STREF (savory, typically red, edible fruit). Astral projection versus the scientific OBE, both are used to describe the same phenomena by two different groups of people. Also just to note that "astral" from astral projection pertains to the astral body and not the "astral plane", again just another way of denoting a separation from the physical body just like an OBE.
Scientist have noted that the chances of an OBE occurring is just before or after REM. Dreaming and a Lucid Dreaming take place during REM. It is highly possible for an individual to go from one state to another. Flying dreams however cannot be classified as an OBE, without the feeling of being separated from ones own body.
I do believe in OBE's being separate from LD, its just that to achieve an OBE there has to be a certain state of consciousness and I do not believe it is something that can easily be pulled off.
Not really. OBE is a term for any subjective experience of viewing one's self or other surroundings from a viewpoint outside the body. The idea of astral projection specifies that a person is transferring (for lack of a better term) their conciousness to their astral body and using it to traverse the astral plane, an idea which is clearly much more specific. OBE is a category of experiences of which AP is one type.Quote:
Originally Posted by linz2d
When I was exploring OOB, I would observe detail while in the state. When I woke myself up, I would check the details--they were always different. In OOB a door would be open, but in reality shut, etc. I concluded that there was no real attempt to fool one that one was actually out of their body--.i.e. if one wanted to ignore detail, they could BS themselves into mysticism. It was just not another form of Lucid Dreaming, but of the same stuff, which I believe is a form of communication, some of which I detail in Language and Experience on the archive.
Then don't, but...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ketsuyume
...this makes me not take you or OBEs seriously too, sorry :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Ketsuyume
Not to be offensive or anything but really? I haven't read any books, but I've read some stuff online... still, here's my dilemma: On one hand I have a plausible explanation which can be proven, and on the other hand I have a mystical explanation which cannot be proven.
It's not hard to make a choice :P
In all seriousness, I didn't make this topic to debate the merits of OBE, I just wanted to find out why I've read some people saying that some methods that people use to obtain OBEs wouldn't work for LDs when from what I had read they where essentially the same thing.
I'm sorry, but this argument really doesn't work. At all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ketsuyume
See, I believe in the pasta god, he comes to me every single day and gives me magically created plates of delightful italian pastries. EVERY. NIGHT. I just can't prove it, but see, it's true! What I experienced is my evidence :roll:
edit:
eeh... can a mod close this thread? It's already lived past it's usefulness.
Supernova No that's another misconception that I have noticed on Dreamviews, when one does astral projection(to project ones spirit) that does not mean they can just traverse the astral plane, the astral plane is not considered part of the physical world. If you experience an OBE/AP and see yourself sitting or lying in your room then you are not in the astral plane but that does not mean that you are not projecting your spirit outwards. If one has enough experience with OBE/AP then they are said to be able to visit the astral plane. In other words the astral plane is the spirit plane or spirit world. And thats when we really go into the mystical stuff.
Philosopher8659, interesting I have also heard of similar experiences but if I had been in your situation I would probably looked for a date and time. Even then I would probably still continue to OBE just for the heck of it. :D
I understand very well that there are differences in detail when you have an OBE and you find yourself in a representation of your "room" or another locale. Like a radio frequency, it's as if you just barely turned the knob the tiniest inch, and while can still hear the "main" station for the most part, you begin to pick up ever so slight signals from another one as well... and they are mixed.
This idea has been represented in video games, music, movies, etc... for years and years. A VERY classic example is in Zelda: A Link To the Past for the SNES. Think about the nuances between the Light World and the Dark World... (go ahead and pull them up and compare them side by side.), how they are virtually the same and yet, in some ways they are not at all. I guarantee you these game designers weren't just pulling these ideas out of their asses. They were basing them off of real concepts... experiences they've had similar to the one's we've had.
Anyone who has played Zelda, A Link the the Past knows that sometimes things you do in one realm will affect the other. Yes, it's just a game... but the idea is the important part. People use games and stories to express these ideas so they won't sound crazy. I see it everywhere in the media, in video games, music, etc...
So while, yes, an OBE might have significant differences than the waking world, it doesn't mean that you aren't, in a sense, still interacting with the waking world... you're just sort of "tuned in" slightly off of the waking world's main frequency. At least that's how I look at it, and have experienced it for my self.
APing and Lucid Dreaming seem like deeper or different frequencies all together. It's like taking the knob and cranking it clockwise 6 times... and you're somewhere entirely different. Sometimes you'll start off in the OBE state and slip into a dream. All this means to me is that the "knob" can still turn and change your frequency while you're in an OBE... which is why I often times slip into a lucid dream. It seems more experienced practitioners of the dreaming arts have more control over what frequency they want to explore in than a learning noob like my self does... but I'm making daily progress.
-K
You mean YOU aren't finding it useful any more? You're more than welcome to go away. Some of us are still benefiting greatly from it.Quote:
can a mod close this thread? It's already lived past it's usefulness.
Again, you are trying to blur the lines between a mental OOBE and a physical "separation of consciousness from the physical body."Quote:
Originally Posted by linz2d
When you are implying that the "spirit is projected from the body," you are implying an actual separation of your focal point to a point outside the body. Whether you are talking about traversing to the astral plane, or just sitting there and hovering around your own body, makes no difference. If one is dreaming that they are looking down at their body, this does not mean their "spirit" has been "projected" outside of their body. It means their mind is creating the illusion of being outside their body. (And I'm speaking in absolutes, only because I am going by the scientific consensus.) To imply that envisioning yourself outside of your body means that your spirit/consciousness/essence has actually separated from your body (meaning that what you see, in this state, is the actual, physical realm, and not a dream) is, in itself, mystical.
You cannot speak of a spirit as not mystical, and a spirit realm as mystical, without making some sort of comprehensive distinction between the two. If you are implying that your "spirit" is being projected to any place other than your own head, during an "astral projection" you are employing mysticism.
Things that have a connection to spirituality and is also unseen or not perceived in real life is considered mystical.
Astral projection is an OBE, but an OBE is not always astral projection.
An astral projection has a connection to spirituality and is also unseen or not perceived in real life, therefore it's mystical.
So, an OBE is not always mystical, right? It could also be a dream or just a mental 'feeling' that you aren't in your body anymore.
I have been a skeptic of astral projection, but as someone said before, experience is evidence, so no harm in trying it.
OBEs, LDs, and APs, in my opinion, are all quite different.
The best videos on the subject are right here:
part 1: YouTube - How to induce an Out Of Body Experience - part 1 - Sleep Paralysis
part 2: YouTube - How to Induce an Out-Of-Body Experience - Part 2 - Separation
These were made by one of the most knowledgeable people in the world on the subject of OBEs. He goes into a few differences between AP and OBEs in these videos, and a great technique on how to induce them if you happen to be interested.
OBEs are quite real, but not of any religious or spiritual meanings.
Oneironaut, that was a reply to Supernova with regards of the use of the word Astral Projection, he wrotethe issue I had is that spiritualist would not confine the use of the phrase astral projection to just the "astral plane", they would also use the phrase to describe the feeling of being outside their own body in the physical world.Quote:
their consciousness to their astral body and using it to traverse the astral plane
As I have said before AP and OBE are just names given to a certain phenomena by two different groups(both groups have different beliefs) but the phenomena is the same. I then went on to say that the term astral projection can be interpreted as "projecting ones spirit" because individuals who use the term believe that's what happens, this however is not believed by the scientific community, because there is no proof.
The phenomena in AP and OBE is the same, a feeling of separation from ones physical body and a floating sensation. So depending on which camp your are in you can use the term which suits you. Whether you believe that you are separated from the physical body or not. At the end of the day I have no problem using both words, because they are just words.
You can say science this and science that, yet science itsself cant explain consciousness or the mechanisms behind it. It knows that there are connection and circuitry in the brain but it doesn't know how consciousness is formed. There are theories but no proof. Such things baffle scientists so much that they place boards with pictures on them, near ceiling in hospitals so that individuals who have NDE will be able to tell them if its possible be outside ones body.
I would like to see some sources on the idea that the term Astral Projection does anything but imply the notion of consciously leave the body. Anything I have ever read makes a clear distinction between (in stricter terms) actually moving your consciousness to another point, or just imagining doing so. You can say they are "just words" but these words, as far as conventional, established languages are concerned, do have distinct meanings (as all of these definitions will tell you).Quote:
Originally Posted by linz2d
If you have something that states that astral projection does not imply consciously leaving the body (meaning that you are, consciously, able to perceive life - as it is - from outside of your physical self), then please post it.
The fact that science has yet to explain something does not mean one should place one's faith in the explanation being of a nature that is against all scientific consensus. One should consider it, sure. But one should not settle on the cop out of "well it's this, and even though science doesn't support it, I know it's right;" not, at least, without extremely consistent results. That is creating an outlandish belief out of fancy, instead of actual observation/experimentation/objectivity. We know what creates lightning, in the 'physical world.' But what makes those variables possible? Is there a consciousness that dictates the physiology of the universe? Who knows? But if you are going to put faith in such stories as Zeus and the Gods (which are stories that came about because of things "science couldn't yet explain"), then you owe it to yourself to thoroughly investigate your belief. I'm not explicitly relating astral projection to stories of Zeus, but it is the faith-based ideology of some people, that is the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by linz2D
That's all a bit off topic though, isn't it?
But, please, direct me to where I can read more about this 'other' interpretation of astral projection. I'm honestly curious.
Oneironaut, you are reading to much into my words and interpreting things in the wrong way. Maybe you took the view that I am speaking from a spiritual perspective. Maybe I wasn't clear enough, so forgive me and lets try this again, as human beings we all try and explain phenomena, for example... why the hell am I floating outside my own body?Quote:
I would like to see some sources on the idea that the term Astral Projection does anything but imply the notion of consciously leave the body
Person A with a mystical point of view will interpret the phenomena as the spirit and consciousness leaving the body, and he calls it astral projection.
Person B with a scientific point of view, interprets the out of body experience as a Lucid Dream, and says its and OBE conjured up by a dream.
Person A calls it astral projection, Person B calls it an OBE. So we now have two terms to describe one experience that both A and B had. Now, like I had written earlier, "At the end of the day I have no problem using both words, because they are just words" thats because they both describe the same experience. And if your are like me who doesn't take the views of the far left or right, what you label the experience as does not really matter, until you experience it.
The original question was, is an OBE different from a LD? My point of view it that they are and they happen at a different level of consciousness just like Ketsuyume wrote when he used his analogy of tuning in to the correct station. And the fact that science, yes science has shown that the time to experience an OBE is on the fringe on REM, and a LD happens during REM further backs up the claim.
And finally about my little ramble of science this and science that, I do know that science will probably answer most things in life but I have a gut feeling that not all will be answered.
Through asserting that you want no mystical stuff in this thread, you've already answered your question. And if we are not to comment on the supposed 'mystical stuff', then it's merely semantics we're arguing here.
I was unsure of my answer, and I love me some semantic arguments :PQuote:
Originally Posted by MrTransitory
The problem is that we're dealing with a wholly subjective experience, so there can be no objectivity. That is to say, these experiences (WILD, levels of Lucidity, OBE, AP etc) vary widely between people. So classification will naturally vary.Quote:
Originally Posted by vmenge
And effectively, it comes down to whether you tend to classify experiences by their differences - If you do, then you will obviously favour multiple classification of what, in my opinion, is the same phenomenon. Conversely, if you search for similarities between experiences, then you're likely to classify them as one and the same. Classification to that end, then, is merely a type of outlook on phenomena.
Can I ask, when you WILD, do you 'wake up in your bed' then get up and leave your body or do you go into a fully-fledged dream world? I ask this because people differ in this respect.
And this is what I mean. To some people, there is a differentiation between OBE and LDs because they feel disparate altered states of consciousness. That is, they feel a difference. Conversely, some people may not feel this difference, and instead focus on the similarities between the two states, and conclude that OBEs and LDs are largely the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by linz2d
The magnitude of this difference/similarity is also largely contingent on whether you favour the scientific explanation or the mystical one.
I'm guessing that my confusion comes from the fact that I have always understood there to be a very distinct difference between Astral Projection and a "base-level" OOBE. I mean, you can say "they are just words", but I can also call a lucid dream a bottle of Gin, but we all know that there is a difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by linz2d
And yes, even if the bit about OOBE's happening at a different stage than an LD is true (It is also said that people "don't visualize/dream during non-REM sleep, which isn't true), that gives no one reason to believe that an OOBE is a physics-defying phenomenon (like Astral Projection). I'm all for the open-minded concept of a subjective interpretation, but I have always known Astral Projection to mean a physical separation of conscious from body. So, when I see a newbie come into the world of dreaming, I do not like to see them confused by faith-based assumptions. If they want to go the way of AP, that's fine, but they need to at least be informed about what that entails. People should not be interchanging AP with dreaming, because the two concepts are different (as far as established science). A dream can be an OOBE, but to just "interpret" it as an Astral Projection is a much more serious claim about the nature of the universe, itself, and should be backed up by consistent facts - not a subjective 'feeling' that that's what's going on.
Just my opinion, though.
Just to put my two cents into this discussion, since the matter of OBE's are subjective and not concrete in physical evidence, I believe conversing the matter would in fact, and is, leading to interesting discussions; however, there could never be a "right" or a "wrong". The best example of this would be the skeptical reactions of individuals when I try to persuade them with all my might that lucid dreaming is real. Since LDing is partly-subjective and they haven't personally experienced the phenomena, the very concept of lucid dreaming goes against their core logic and reasoning. Taken up a level, the very same could be true with Lucid Dreaming and like extensions of it like OBEs. Since not everyone has experienced the phenomena and it goes against core reasoning, it is basic humanistic emotion to be skeptical. However, it may be a matter of experiencing it, if it's real, that could very well change the tide of that individual's opinion.
It would seem that until certain technological advancements are made that could undermine OBE's subjective nature, neither arguments of the spectrum can prove/disprove the other side. I will say though, reading this thread and it's intellectual arguments have been rather refreshing
Well said, Marlowe, and I agree. We might have our notions about a thing - however well-founded - but this is all just a very speculative argument. Like I said, I personally don't condemn anyone for their beliefs on such topics. I may not agree with their conclusions, and voice my opinion, but I understand that even mine is an unconfirmed assessment. I think it's very important to be able to talk to people with different opinions than your own, and respectfully disagree.
I'll tell you as soon as I'm able to WILD :(Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTransitory
Ah, well good luck. It'll be quite the experience the first time.Quote:
Originally Posted by vmenge
To thine own self be true.
If some people can AP (mystical) as frequently as the scientific lot have OBEs, then if they're not dishonest to themselves they should be able to prove if they're literally removed from their physical body. Unfortunately, I think those that tend to believe in AP are those who, at the onset, are not critical, sceptical thinkers, and are convinced that it's a real phenomenon on emotional grounds rather than rational grounds.
If I were to suddenly AP, literally, then I would look to disprove its reality. If I could not, and had evidence supporting its reality then I would be forced to accept it. How I would convince another, however, I have no idea. But I'd certainly not be dismissive and defensively hostile when questioned.
Edit. - I could easily convince another by having them observe me during sleep whilst I tell them what's in the next room. Easy.
im sorry but the op is too mystical for my liking ;)
this is a topic that for me is one of the most important questions there is related to dreaming and perhaps everything. all i can say from my experience is that whenever i have got close to what i would call an obe, i have been projecting into a place that closely resembles my physical surroundings but not close enough to actually be the physical world. however many people do calim to be able to project into their physical surroundings or what they call the rtz (real time zone). i dont know if this could be explained simply by their minds creating a very exact replica of the physical or whether they are actually doing it, but i tend to think that with enough practice, you can do anything in dreams. the subconscious is powerful enough for me to be essentially all knowing, and perhaps even if the place you go to is just produced by the subconscious, then it could well be powerful enough to actually recreate it as it actually is in the physical world. hope at least some of that makes sense
so the big question for me is how to get from a lucid to a full blown obe. i have had some success in trying to find my body in lucid dreams, but i have never been able to see my local area in a dream as it actually is in reality. tere are always subtle differences whenever i am dreaming at home
if physical obes are real then for now i would have to put them down as the most stable lucid dream possible. im sure its possible to bring that lucid awareness to waking life
is the subconscious powerful enought that it knows enough about the physical world to recreate it all accurately in a dream state?
i dont really see your problem with ket here. i mean its not like you can prove your dreams to anyone is it? yet...Quote:
Originally Posted by vmenge
You just touched on what these non-rational thinkers tend to do to circumvent the verification of the reality of APs. They suddenly retort: 'Oh, but when astral projecting, we are no longer in the physical world, so the surroundings won't be identical'.
If this is the case, then through their reasoning WILDs could be potentially occurring in a different reality too. As well as standard dreams.
>_>
This is occurring right now when you're awake. It's largely coming from your brain - during saccadic eye movements you're momentarily blind; however, as far you're aware the world is still there just the same. Your brain is directly producing it at this time.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterain
This can be proved by a simple experiment: stand in front of a mirror, and look at your left eye, and then look at your right eye. You will not see your eyes move. However, an external observer will see your eyes move. The world is artificially there during that small movement.
It's not a question of "can it?" (It can.) It is a question of "will it?"Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterain
The problem comes in that, when you're looking at your surroundings in a dream, as projected by your subconscious, you are looking at those surroundings out of time. That bottle of water that is on your desk, in waking life, may not be there, in the dream. You have looked at that spot on your desk numerous times, while awake, so your subconscious remembers that particular spot in a sort of "superposition." It remembers how that spot has looked, over the course of however long you have been around it; bottle; no bottle; papers; no papers; etc.
That is all on the premise that your brain is projecting things you have actually seen. You also have to contend with imagination, which could completely rearrange your furniture, in ways which you have never actually seen them arranged, in waking life. Unfortunately, I don't believe there is anyway to actually delegate whether or not your mind presents to you a picture of how your surroundings actually are, or not. It does this on its own, depending on the streams of thought that are going on, outside of your range of perception. The only way to ensure that your dream projects your surroundings as they actually are, is to arrange them yourself, while lucid. But this would kind of defeat the purpose.
thanks for the replies i agree mostly, although it all just throws up more questions rather than answers as always ;)
to the experienced wilders/obes do you generally project straight into a dream or the rtz? is that the most straight forward way to get to a real world projection, or is it just as possible to get lucid in a dream and then try to project yourself into your room and go from there?
Every WILD I have induced has resulted in me opening my eyes, believing I am awake, trying to get up, realising that I'm paralysed, and then in me rolling out of my paralysed body onto my room floor. Where I can turn around and see myself sleeping.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterain
cool so does your room have subtle differences to reality when that happens, or do the differences grow the further you get into the dream?
im just fascinated by the possibility of actually being lucid in your dream body in reality, but if its possible like in the carlos casteneda books, i would suspect only the very advanced would be able to pull it off
as i write this my dad is in the other room watching the x-lifes and mulder just started talking about some guy going round astral projecting and kiling people in that state. freaky chills up my spine....:D
I had a dream just recently about trying to lucid dream, I am in my room and it was identical to reality down to me opening and closing my eyes, repeating the words "I will lucid dream I will lucid" and moving around so I could get comfortable, eventually the sun came up in the dream and only then did I wake up in the middle of the night. Of course it was not an OBE or an LD but it just goes to show that you don't have to be in an OBE to experiance another form of reality.
Just out of interest MrTransitory were you floating in such casesQuote:
Every WILD I have induced has resulted in me opening my eyes, believing I am awake, trying to get up, realising that I'm paralysed, and then in me rolling out of my paralysed body onto my room floor. Where I can turn around and see myself sleeping.
whiterain, lol went down to get a cup of tea and saw the same show on, the guy thats doing it has no arms and legs. What are the chances...
My transitions into LD's are like Mr T's as well. I normally roll out of my body and often times see my sleeping meatsack on the bed still. Normally I slip into a lucid dream pretty quick. Without proper training it's very, very hard to maintain the OBE frequency that's right next to the physical one, so I am normally only in my room briefly before slipping somewhere else.
-K
Ketsuyume, I heard that one way to remain in a lucid state, when you feel yourself slipping, is to fall backwards. I wonder if that can also be applied to an OBE to stabilize it.
he started talking about how the guys phantom limb sydrome had led to how he had enabled himself to project his astral body :shock: someone who made that knows what they are talking about for sureQuote:
Originally Posted by linz2d
awesome cheers for clearing that up. do you feel you will ever be able to maintain the frequency that holds you in the real world?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ketsuyume
@ Whiterain,
It's never quite the, "real world." I've used this analogy before, but think of it like Zelda's, Light World and the Dark World in, A Link to the Past. (Pull them up, compare side by side.) Anyone who has played the video game knows that the two worlds are linked... when something is affected in one world, it's also affecting the other. I guarantee the game designers were basing these concepts off of... other concepts. :D They weren't just pulling these ideas out of their asses.
So yeah, with training it's possible to maintain a frequency close to this one... but simply learning how to Lucid Dream at night is normally not enough. Meditative training and disciplined mind focus routines almost seem necessary... otherwise you'll never really have a chance to explore. You'll most likely only pass through the locale briefly in order to find yourself in the dream world... or when you return from the dream world right before you return to your physical body, you normally pass through it again.
It also seems the level of focus, discipline, etc... can affect just how "accurate" you perceive things when comparing what you might see in the OBE frequency to the real life one. People have reported things like... thinking someone was "sorting" through a bunch of envelopes when they were really playing cards, etc... but as you train your mind, things tend to appear more and more as they should. (Maybe you can get it to like 99.9% accuracy, but it's in all technicality impossible for 100%... I think.)
I speak from limited, but what I consider to be real experience, as well as dozens of accounts I've read... and just putting everything together the best I've come to understand it.
-K
Nope, no floating. I always feel restrained to begin with where I can move my eyes and....spine. When I roll out of my body, and then stand up, I am on my feet. Every WILD I've done never results in a further state beyond this: I am always in this altered version of my waking surroundings. I can't seem to enter 'a dream', so it's pretty boring actually. Because of this, I now tend to favour DILDs.Quote:
Originally Posted by linz2d
The first time I ever WILDed was when my friend was sleeping on my room floor. We both tried to WILD, but he was unsuccessful and fell asleep. I transitioned, rolled out of my body (without realising this). I saw my friend on the floor sleeping, and thought 'shit, I failed.' I got up, turned around, and saw myself. I freaked out fearfully and with excitement. I woke my friend up: he sat up, looked around as if he didn't see me, and then laid back down. I became scared at this point, and so laid on top of myself to get back to sleep. My friend, in the morning, was adamant that he did wake up, confused when he did.
Despite this, I still think it was coincidence. And it was certainly a dream. Nonetheless, this motivated me to keep LDing.
fantastic explanation thanks alot you made it very clear. sorry for all the questionsQuote:
Originally Posted by Ketsuyume
give it to me then :cheeky:Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTransitory
great thread all. cheers
MrTransitory its interesting, it would also be interesting to see what boundaries such an experience has compared to something like lucid dreaming. For example how far you could walk before things get weird(if they ever do), then returning to check if your body is where you left it :panic:, checking dates and times and seeing if the same reality checks for LDs apply in your OBE.