Thread: Is OBE a form of Lucid Dreaming or not?

Originally Posted by whiterain

is the subconscious powerful enought that it knows enough about the physical world to recreate it all accurately in a dream state?

This is occurring right now when you're awake. It's largely coming from your brain - during saccadic eye movements you're momentarily blind; however, as far you're aware the world is still there just the same. Your brain is directly producing it at this time.

This can be proved by a simple experiment: stand in front of a mirror, and look at your left eye, and then look at your right eye. You will not see your eyes move. However, an external observer will see your eyes move. The world is artificially there during that small movement.

Originally Posted by whiterain

is the subconscious powerful enought that it knows enough about the physical world to recreate it all accurately in a dream state?

It's not a question of "can it?" (It can.) It is a question of "will it?"

The problem comes in that, when you're looking at your surroundings in a dream, as projected by your subconscious, you are looking at those surroundings out of time. That bottle of water that is on your desk, in waking life, may not be there, in the dream. You have looked at that spot on your desk numerous times, while awake, so your subconscious remembers that particular spot in a sort of "superposition." It remembers how that spot has looked, over the course of however long you have been around it; bottle; no bottle; papers; no papers; etc.

That is all on the premise that your brain is projecting things you have actually seen. You also have to contend with imagination, which could completely rearrange your furniture, in ways which you have never actually seen them arranged, in waking life. Unfortunately, I don't believe there is anyway to actually delegate whether or not your mind presents to you a picture of how your surroundings actually are, or not. It does this on its own, depending on the streams of thought that are going on, outside of your range of perception. The only way to ensure that your dream projects your surroundings as they actually are, is to arrange them yourself, while lucid. But this would kind of defeat the purpose.

thanks for the replies i agree mostly, although it all just throws up more questions rather than answers as always

to the experienced wilders/obes do you generally project straight into a dream or the rtz? is that the most straight forward way to get to a real world projection, or is it just as possible to get lucid in a dream and then try to project yourself into your room and go from there?

Originally Posted by whiterain

thanks for the replies i agree mostly, although it all just throws up more questions rather than answers as always

to the experienced wilders/obes do you generally project straight into a dream or the rtz? is that the most straight forward way to get to a real world projection, or is it just as possible to get lucid in a dream and then try to project yourself into your room and go from there?

Every WILD I have induced has resulted in me opening my eyes, believing I am awake, trying to get up, realising that I'm paralysed, and then in me rolling out of my paralysed body onto my room floor. Where I can turn around and see myself sleeping.

cool so does your room have subtle differences to reality when that happens, or do the differences grow the further you get into the dream?

im just fascinated by the possibility of actually being lucid in your dream body in reality, but if its possible like in the carlos casteneda books, i would suspect only the very advanced would be able to pull it off

as i write this my dad is in the other room watching the x-lifes and mulder just started talking about some guy going round astral projecting and kiling people in that state. freaky chills up my spine....

I had a dream just recently about trying to lucid dream, I am in my room and it was identical to reality down to me opening and closing my eyes, repeating the words "I will lucid dream I will lucid" and moving around so I could get comfortable, eventually the sun came up in the dream and only then did I wake up in the middle of the night. Of course it was not an OBE or an LD but it just goes to show that you don't have to be in an OBE to experiance another form of reality.

Every WILD I have induced has resulted in me opening my eyes, believing I am awake, trying to get up, realising that I'm paralysed, and then in me rolling out of my paralysed body onto my room floor. Where I can turn around and see myself sleeping.

Just out of interest MrTransitory were you floating in such cases

whiterain, lol went down to get a cup of tea and saw the same show on, the guy thats doing it has no arms and legs. What are the chances...

My transitions into LD's are like Mr T's as well. I normally roll out of my body and often times see my sleeping meatsack on the bed still. Normally I slip into a lucid dream pretty quick. Without proper training it's very, very hard to maintain the OBE frequency that's right next to the physical one, so I am normally only in my room briefly before slipping somewhere else.
-K

Ketsuyume, I heard that one way to remain in a lucid state, when you feel yourself slipping, is to fall backwards. I wonder if that can also be applied to an OBE to stabilize it.

Originally Posted by linz2d

I had a dream just recently about trying to lucid dream, I am in my room and it was identical to reality down to me opening and closing my eyes, repeating the words "I will lucid dream I will lucid" and moving around so I could get comfortable, eventually the sun came up in the dream and only then did I wake up in the middle of the night. Of course it was not an OBE or an LD but it just goes to show that you don't have to be in an OBE to experiance another form of reality.



Just out of interest MrTransitory were you floating in such cases

whiterain, lol went down to get a cup of tea and saw the same show on, the guy thats doing it has no arms and legs. What are the chances...

he started talking about how the guys phantom limb sydrome had led to how he had enabled himself to project his astral body someone who made that knows what they are talking about for sure

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

My transitions into LD's are like Mr T's as well. I normally roll out of my body and often times see my sleeping meatsack on the bed still. Normally I slip into a lucid dream pretty quick. Without proper training it's very, very hard to maintain the OBE frequency that's right next to the physical one, so I am normally only in my room briefly before slipping somewhere else.
-K

awesome cheers for clearing that up. do you feel you will ever be able to maintain the frequency that holds you in the real world?

@ Whiterain,

It's never quite the, "real world." I've used this analogy before, but think of it like Zelda's, Light World and the Dark World in, A Link to the Past. (Pull them up, compare side by side.) Anyone who has played the video game knows that the two worlds are linked... when something is affected in one world, it's also affecting the other. I guarantee the game designers were basing these concepts off of... other concepts. They weren't just pulling these ideas out of their asses.

So yeah, with training it's possible to maintain a frequency close to this one... but simply learning how to Lucid Dream at night is normally not enough. Meditative training and disciplined mind focus routines almost seem necessary... otherwise you'll never really have a chance to explore. You'll most likely only pass through the locale briefly in order to find yourself in the dream world... or when you return from the dream world right before you return to your physical body, you normally pass through it again.

It also seems the level of focus, discipline, etc... can affect just how "accurate" you perceive things when comparing what you might see in the OBE frequency to the real life one. People have reported things like... thinking someone was "sorting" through a bunch of envelopes when they were really playing cards, etc... but as you train your mind, things tend to appear more and more as they should. (Maybe you can get it to like 99.9% accuracy, but it's in all technicality impossible for 100%... I think.)

I speak from limited, but what I consider to be real experience, as well as dozens of accounts I've read... and just putting everything together the best I've come to understand it.

-K

Originally Posted by linz2d

I had a dream just recently about trying to lucid dream, I am in my room and it was identical to reality down to me opening and closing my eyes, repeating the words "I will lucid dream I will lucid" and moving around so I could get comfortable, eventually the sun came up in the dream and only then did I wake up in the middle of the night. Of course it was not an OBE or an LD but it just goes to show that you don't have to be in an OBE to experiance another form of reality.



Just out of interest MrTransitory were you floating in such cases

whiterain, lol went down to get a cup of tea and saw the same show on, the guy thats doing it has no arms and legs. What are the chances...

Nope, no floating. I always feel restrained to begin with where I can move my eyes and....spine. When I roll out of my body, and then stand up, I am on my feet. Every WILD I've done never results in a further state beyond this: I am always in this altered version of my waking surroundings. I can't seem to enter 'a dream', so it's pretty boring actually. Because of this, I now tend to favour DILDs.

The first time I ever WILDed was when my friend was sleeping on my room floor. We both tried to WILD, but he was unsuccessful and fell asleep. I transitioned, rolled out of my body (without realising this). I saw my friend on the floor sleeping, and thought 'shit, I failed.' I got up, turned around, and saw myself. I freaked out fearfully and with excitement. I woke my friend up: he sat up, looked around as if he didn't see me, and then laid back down. I became scared at this point, and so laid on top of myself to get back to sleep. My friend, in the morning, was adamant that he did wake up, confused when he did.

Despite this, I still think it was coincidence. And it was certainly a dream. Nonetheless, this motivated me to keep LDing.

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

@ Whiterain,

It's never quite the, "real world." I've used this analogy before, but think of it like Zelda's, Light World and the Dark World in, A Link to the Past. (Pull them up, compare side by side.) Anyone who has played the video game knows that the two worlds are linked... when something is affected in one world, it's also affecting the other. I guarantee the game designers were basing these concepts off of... other concepts. They weren't just pulling these ideas out of their asses.

So yeah, with training it's possible to maintain a frequency close to this one... but simply learning how to Lucid Dream at night is normally not enough. Meditative training and disciplined mind focus routines almost seem necessary... otherwise you'll never really have a chance to explore. You'll most likely only pass through the locale briefly in order to find yourself in the dream world... or when you return from the dream world right before you return to your physical body, you normally pass through it again.

It also seems the level of focus, discipline, etc... can affect just how "accurate" you perceive things when comparing what you might see in the OBE frequency to the real life one. People have reported things like... thinking someone was "sorting" through a bunch of envelopes when they were really playing cards, etc... but as you train your mind, things tend to appear more and more as they should. (Maybe you can get it to like 99.9% accuracy, but it's in all technicality impossible for 100%... I think.)

I speak from limited, but what I consider to be real experience, as well as dozens of accounts I've read... and just putting everything together the best I've come to understand it.

-K

fantastic explanation thanks alot you made it very clear. sorry for all the questions

Originally Posted by MrTransitory

Nope, no floating. I always feel restrained to begin with where I can move my eyes and....spine. When I roll out of my body, and then stand up, I am on my feet. Every WILD I've done never results in a further state beyond this: I am always in this altered version of my waking surroundings. I can't seem to enter 'a dream', so it's pretty boring actually. Because of this, I now tend to favour DILDs.

give it to me then

great thread all. cheers

MrTransitory its interesting, it would also be interesting to see what boundaries such an experience has compared to something like lucid dreaming. For example how far you could walk before things get weird(if they ever do), then returning to check if your body is where you left it , checking dates and times and seeing if the same reality checks for LDs apply in your OBE.