Dream Characters as a Projection of the Self

[aries88]

I've been wondering, if dream characters are projections of our own minds can we use them to learn about ourselves? Or are they simply flashes of our untamed subconscious? How much of our personality is portrayed through our characters? Today I took a nap and had my most vivid lucid dream yet, the problem was I went lucid while sitting with my boyfriend in a park. I was very excited so I told him that we were in my dream and that we could go anywhere or do anything. Immediately his character became sad, started acting like my boyfriend does in reality when something's on his mind and he doesn't want to share it. I wanted to appease him so I took him to fjord and we walked on water, during that time he was fascinated. But back on shore he was quiet and downtrodden. I tried to talk to him about it and the second he started to explain my dream world became engulfed in shadows. I've been thinking about this and I think the shadows were a symbolic representation of my own emotions. I also think that they were being expressed (maybe even felt?) by my DC boyfriend. Note: There was another layer after this part of the dream that I won't write about because this post is getting long, but if you're interested feel free to message me. My mind definitely played some tricks on me. I won't expand on what I think the experience caused me to feel, but I will say that we live five hours away, and I think I subconsciously projected feelings relating to that through the behavior of his DC. This can be supported by the fact that he wasn't upset until after I told him we were in my dream and by fact that the shadows appeared when he was going to speak about how he felt. So now I'm asking you all questions about DCs in relation to the dreamer. Do you guys have any thoughts or experiences to share? Do you think this is a good way to learn about oneself? Or do you think it's complete rubbish?

[Hyu]

This is an interesting topic. Personally, I distinguish 2 types of DC's: People I know in real life and people I've never seen before. If I meet a DC I know in real life, he always acts like his real life counterpart. I assume this is related to expectations, which I know have a massive influence on your dreams. I expect a DC I know in real life to act like the person I know in real life, so he does. With DC's I don't know, it's a different story, presumably because I don't have any expectations on how he/she will act. I have had discussions with such DC's about my real life, about things that are on my mind etc. On one occasion a DC has actually pointed out something I had on my mind, which I didn't realize before. So yes, I do believe DC's can provide some insight about ourselves in certain situations.

[Velzhaed]

I don't personally feel that you're going to be enlightened by your dreams because the things that happens in dreams are unreliable. It becomes a weird "pick-and-choose" thing when you try to find deeper meaning in your dreams. "My boyfriend being sad was a window to my inner soul, but the badger dancing in the corner was just crazy mind stuff." In dreams concepts become confused, people blend into each other, places don't make sense, and so on. You can't trust what happens in a dream, as there are no rules. So trying to find deeper meanings is like looking at tea leaves in the bottom of a cup. Yeah- maybe you'll see the shape of a hat that your grandma used to wear, but really it's just the leavings from the leaves. I guess the shaping factor for me is that I don't think my subconcious is a seperate person that I can "meet" in the dream and learn things about myself. People define themselves by their actions; there's not a "hidden" you that you can uncover by LDing, or taking a trip to Europe (a popular way of "find yourself" among folks I know), or meditating. My .02. Nifty avatar, btw.

[Philosopher8659]

You might see something I posted on the internet archive in both audio-book and ebook form. The last couple chapters on lucid dreams as a language. Language and Experience : John J. Clark : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive Internet Archive Search: johnclark8659

[aries88]

I haven't had enough experience with lucid dreams and dream characters to have conversed with people I've never seen before. I think that adds a whole new layer to speculate about, that's very interesting. Maybe because there are no expectations on their behavior it opens up some doors so to speak?

[aries88]

I don't personally feel that you're going to be enlightened by your dreams because the things that happens in dreams are unreliable. It becomes a weird "pick-and-choose" thing when you try to find deeper meaning in your dreams. "My boyfriend being sad was a window to my inner soul, but the badger dancing in the corner was just crazy mind stuff." In dreams concepts become confused, people blend into each other, places don't make sense, and so on. You can't trust what happens in a dream, as there are no rules. So trying to find deeper meanings is like looking at tea leaves in the bottom of a cup. Yeah- maybe you'll see the shape of a hat that your grandma used to wear, but really it's just the leavings from the leaves. I guess the shaping factor for me is that I don't think my subconcious is a seperate person that I can "meet" in the dream and learn things about myself. People define themselves by their actions; there's not a "hidden" you that you can uncover by LDing, or taking a trip to Europe (a popular way of "find yourself" among folks I know), or meditating. My .02. Nifty avatar, btw. This is a good post and I thank you for your response, but I disagree with you. While I agree that there are no rules in dreams, I also believe that there's something to be said about them happening within the limitations of a person's mind, unique from their own leanings and experiences. True rational concepts go out the door, I've had out there dreams like riding purple dolphins before, but I've also had experiences with dreams that are so realistic I wake up thinking they actually happened. So while there may be a lack of rules I think we are capable of having incredibly logical dreams. And even illogical dreams I think in some ways relate to a person's life and experiences (I do play a flash game where there are purple dolphins jumping in and out of the bottom of the screen). Having said that, I think tea leaves are not a perfect analogy in this situation. I can see where you're going with it, but tea leaves do not grow and learn alongside a person and therefore scientifically could not provide any insight into a person's life whereas I truly believe dreams, or parts of dreams, could, even if muddled alongside other bizarre occurrences. I feel the need to clarify that I don't mean to say interactions with dream characters could be the fast ticket to "enlightenment" and "finding oneself," but instead that I am saying those interactions could call to attention previously unconsidered insights into various situations. There are big differences between the conscious and subconscious minds and people are obviously not easily aware of their subconscious thoughts, of which there are trillions. While the subconscious mind can be illogical, something we've proven above with the fact that crazy things happen in our dreams, it is also very powerful in that it communicates more intuitively through images and feelings. Even if our projections are weird and quirky, they are not without some sort of base. And certainly other more "logical" thoughts exist within our subconscious that are derived from the same "lens" that is so different from our waking mind. The reason I'm bringing all of this to attention is because I think it fully proves that the subconscious mind is capable of harboring keen, perceptive, perhaps even wise thoughts that our waking minds are not aware of. People do not make dreams consciously, which means they do so subconsciously. Therefore I think one, when interacting directly with their subconscious mind through dreaming, could very well learn more about their own life - within the limitations of their own mind, their own unique subconscious - and come to know more about themselves, the people around them, or hey maybe even reach a state of enlightenment. And what more direct way is there to interact in the dream world and your subconscious thought than through communicating with dream characters? I'm not saying there is a "hidden person" inside everyone, but instead that I think it's possible to learn from dream characters as a projection of the self because they could grant access, like gatekeepers, to thoughts that are otherwise hard to obtain and more importantly hard to articulate. So I stand by my original conclusion. Now I do realize that I've arrived at my theory through abductive reasoning and that I am making some assumptions throughout, but I truly do not think any of it is completely outlandish. Perhaps I'm wrong? I'd love to hear more of your thoughts. In any case thank you again for the post and sorry for the length of my response. Oh! And thank you for the compliment on my avatar too! Made me smile

[Inphinity]

Well I have had one experience where my sub conscious actually spoke to me in a lucid dream. I was trying to grow taller and it was sort of this voice within me that told me you can no longer keep growing because you do not have sufficient knowledge in Physics and Wind Resistance. As you could imagine I was very disapointed but next time I am in a lucid dream I will try and talk to it again, maybe gain a little insight, then again maybe not. Interesting post by the way.

[Velzhaed]

At the core it's a question of how active and influencial the unconscious mind is. Obviously you feel the subconcious is fairly active, and can be a repository for facets of our personality. I don't agree, and while I won't go so far as to say the subconscious doesn't exist, I think it's tricky because we can only observe the unconscious mind at work through its effects, and can't really get a grasp on what its function is and how it operates. But that's a debate that has been going on in academia for a long time, and we're not going to solve on the DV message boards. I could throw "prove we have "trillions" of subconcious thoughts" at you, but then you could throw back "prove we don't," and we'll neither get anywhere. But for the sake of argument, let's posit that the subconcious exists, and is a fairly active cognitive process going on beneath the layer of our normal thoughts and feelings, catching things we would miss or like to forget. The problem I have with learning things from the subconscious as embodied by DCs (throwing out the whole enlightenment thing) is that while we are dreaming we lose all rules of logic and lose our ability to reason. For example it doesn't strike us as strange that a DC can be a single body but be several people at once ("he was my brother, but also the governor"), and it doesn't seem strange to us that locations can flip around, the laws of physics can be ignored, and so on. So to me picking out which DCs are avatars of the subconscious would be totally random and unreliable. In your dream you could be presented with two DCs. One is telling you that you will never be happy until you return to painting. The other is telling you that you will only be happy if you never paint again. Which one is the embodiement of your underlying desires, and which is a run-of-the-mill dream character? You'd be going on instinct alone, and (in my opinion) those impulses can't be trusted when sections of your brain are shut down. Someone could jump in here and say "but what if it's a Lucid Dream?!" I would argue that once you achieve awareness your mind is working full-on, and you're no more likely to be able to have a conversation with your unconscious mind during a LD than you would while awake. However if your conscious mind is NOT working 100% during a lucid...then you are back to square one where you are trying to make decisions and interpret information while your primary engine for reason is not fully functional. You could just say "I had a 'feeling' or an 'impulse' that the DC I was talking to was more than just an NPC (so to speak)." I can't really argue with that, cause I can't affirm or deny the emotions you felt during your dream. All I can say is that for myself I would simply inerpet that feeling as another part of the fictional experience of the dream. The same way I don't trust the conclusions I come to while have a philosophical debate while under the influence (but that doesn't make them any less fun ). So to me (TLDR) I don't think DCs are gatekeepers because I'm not sure there is a gate in the first place, and even if there is I don't think I have the presence of mind in a dream to differentiate the true gatekeepers from the false. And that's assuming that the subconscious even desires (so to speak) to be known. All that said, I enjoyed your post. Well thought out, well said, and no relying on metaphysics and "vibrations."

[aries88]

Well said! Thank you for conversing with me, I love hearing other opinions, especially when they challenge my own because it forces me to take a closer look. If there's one thing we can agree on it's that thinking things through carefully is never a bad practice. (Or perhaps you'll surprise me! ) In any case I think we're going to have to agree to disagree overall because, like you said, we fundamentally disagree on the capabilities of the subconscious. You're right in saying that there's a lot of debate over the unconscious mind and, because nothing is widely accepted as proven, I think we can both argue our stances equally because both involve a large amount of speculation. With that in mind, I think the question I've posed ultimately becomes subjective. By nature I'm very in tune, sometimes even driven purely by my emotions. It can be both good and bad, I think irrationally a lot and I know that but sometimes my intuition is dead on. My point here is that because I'm emotional it does make me partial towards ideas of a powerful subconscious and the ability to distinguish between true and false signs from it, but I'm sure a lot of people agree with you because they don't buy into my theories and have had different experiences. It's all subjective then. Phew. I have to say even though we haven't really answered anything I feel like I've gotten a lot out of thinking about your posts, so again thank you so much! If anything the next time I have a lucid experience similar to the one I originally brought up I'll be a more skeptical. For me that's a good thing, like I said my thinking is heavily influenced by feeling and sometimes I jump to conclusions...and that doesn't always turn out favorably for me. I'll definitely be keeping everything you said in mind! Try to find a healthy balance between the "vibrations" and the rational thinking so to speak Thank you again, happy dreaming!

[aries88]

Well I have had one experience where my sub conscious actually spoke to me in a lucid dream. I was trying to grow taller and it was sort of this voice within me that told me you can no longer keep growing because you do not have sufficient knowledge in Physics and Wind Resistance. As you could imagine I was very disapointed but next time I am in a lucid dream I will try and talk to it again, maybe gain a little insight, then again maybe not. Interesting post by the way. About the post, thank you. And in response to yours, I find it incredibly interesting. I look at that and wonder if maybe physics/wind resistance is something you've always felt you need to learn more about, but it's never come across your waking thoughts because they've been preoccupied. It also reminds me of how sometimes in dreams when I try to change the scene by basing it off of a picture I get a warped, twisty, woozy image instead. I think that happens because when I see images with my eyes they're only 2D and I don't actually know enough about the 3D place they were taken from to create a world I can interact with.

[Velzhaed]

Well said! Thank you for conversing with me, I love hearing other opinions, especially when they challenge my own because it forces me to take a closer look. If there's one thing we can agree on it's that thinking things through carefully is never a bad practice. (Or perhaps you'll surprise me! ) In any case I think we're going to have to agree to disagree overall because, like you said, we fundamentally disagree on the capabilities of the subconscious. You're right in saying that there's a lot of debate over the unconscious mind and, because nothing is widely accepted as proven, I think we can both argue our stances equally because both involve a large amount of speculation. With that in mind, I think the question I've posed ultimately becomes subjective. By nature I'm very in tune, sometimes even driven purely by my emotions. It can be both good and bad, I think irrationally a lot and I know that but sometimes my intuition is dead on. My point here is that because I'm emotional it does make me partial towards ideas of a powerful subconscious and the ability to distinguish between true and false signs from it, but I'm sure a lot of people agree with you because they don't buy into my theories and have had different experiences. It's all subjective then. Phew. I have to say even though we haven't really answered anything I feel like I've gotten a lot out of thinking about your posts, so again thank you so much! If anything the next time I have a lucid experience similar to the one I originally brought up I'll be a more skeptical. For me that's a good thing, like I said my thinking is heavily influenced by feeling and sometimes I jump to conclusions...and that doesn't always turn out favorably for me. I'll definitely be keeping everything you said in mind! Try to find a healthy balance between the "vibrations" and the rational thinking so to speak Thank you again, happy dreaming! Hehe- agreed. Yeah I like reading and discussing a well thought-out opinion just because sometimes you haven't really nailed down how you feel until you've defended it (or at least proposed it in a clear way).

[LucidInvader]

What the fuck is with your avatar? Is it supposed to do something, because my friend had a Picture he said that got him high just by looking at it, I didn't really give a shit so.. just a little curious if that was supposed to do anything. anyways as far as your thread goes I believe most DC's don't really have anything important to say, sometimes if your very confused, or unsure about something I've noticed they will sometimes bring up whats on my mind.

[Cosmix]

This is a great thread and something I think often on. I think some DC's can be projections of the self whereas others are merely mindless thought forms filling the space. When lucid I notice DC's that are just thought forms seem to have this weird green/gold tone about their skin and have blank/crazy eyes. DC's that I believe to be projections of myself (and/or other beings) are usually regular colors, act outside of expectation, and seem to be able to do or exceed things in the dream that only the dreamer "should" be able too. Next time you are in a lucid try asking The Dream to "eliminate all thought forms" you might be surprised at what happens - for me 90% disappear, and some stay. Some DC's even seem to know more about me than I do myself (sub/un conscious speaking to me?). I highly recommend the book Lucid Dreaming: Gateway to the Inner Self by Robbert Waggoner. He deals pretty extensively with this.

[aries88]

I'm sorry I haven't been around to respond to my own thread sooner. - My avatar isn't supposed to do anything as far as I know, I just like looking at it. but I find that interesting, to me it seems perfectly reasonable that DCs would talk to you about things that were on your mind anyway. - I like how you compromise the two ideas, actually I think that makes a lot of sense. I should try doing what you say. It's funny because sometimes I know all of the characters in my dreams (they're my friends, family members, etc.) and other times all of the people are complete strangers. I'd be very intrigued if I tried your technique and some strangers stayed that I ultimately ended up talking to and learning something from. Can you elaborate on how sometimes you've encountered that seem to know more about yourself than you do? I'm curious, but if not I'd completely understand. Also thank you so much for the book recommendation! I'll have to check it out.

[ShinodaCM]

Alright guys, I know this is taking a side step here but I just wanna say that this is the best thread ever! This is the first thread on the entire internet where I've seen 2 people arguing in an intelligent and civilized matter.. not trolling, no calling names, no "lolololol ur ideas sux, ghey gtfo", etc... You guys are awesome!

[Challen]

I think your reflection in dreams can tell you what you think about yourself, In my first lucid dream, when I looked in a mirror my reflection was my brother. At first I thought it was just random, but then I thought about it after the dream and I thought it might mean I am following in my brothers footsteps, or that we are alot like each other. I haven't had much experience with DCs, but does anyone else think your reflection is your subconsious telling you about yourself?

[Dannon Oneironaut]

Very good thread. I feel I have something to say about this. In my opinion, there is no clear distinction between conscious and subconscious and unconscious. It is like a sunset. It isn't just day and then suddenly it is night. It is really part of one thing. That one thing is our total psyche being. Like Velzhaed said, dreams don't often make sense and it may be difficult to interpret which elements in the dream are messages from the subconscious and which are not. Part of my dreamwork is to integrate different aspects of myself. I believe every part of the dream is part of me, which seems obvious to me since I am the dreamer. Of course, the mind I have to work with is a monkey mind and there are lots of random thoughts that are meaningless. These manifest as meaningless dream elements in my dreams. But with lucid dreaming, I can work directly with my mind in a way that I can't in waking life. I hypothesize that all archetypal myths originate in dreams, because they speak the same language. That language is not a logical rational language, but it still speaks to me in a powerful manner. I might not understand it much of the time, but I still learn from it. There is no rational verbal message that I am expecting to find, or even an epiphany, but maybe a story that transforms an emotion. I look for themes. Basic stories. Emotions. Much of my work is on exploring the more shadowy subconscious parts of me that I don't understand as much. I overcome my fears and integrate them back into me. If I find myself in an huge shadowy mansion rather than wander around with a candle or a flashlight I will open the drapes, I will open the windows, knock down the walls, explore the basement and different floors and the attic. I may install a fancy glass elevator. I speak the same language as the dream while I am dreaming it. Of course, not all dreams are all subconscious. I also like to explore in the other direction. I like to fly up towards the sun. I find that the language my mind speaks when I explore the more exalted spectrum of consciousness is very mythic and archetypal, even religious. I have interacted with "Divine" beings who sent waves of blissful energy through my dream body. They have spoke simple truths or showed me such emotionally exalted scenes that have left me high for days. Sorry to Velzhaed, because now I will get metaphysical, because I am that kind of guy. However, my most ideal aim in working with dreams is nothing less than enlightenment. I use the Buddhist approach for this and especially the Tibetan Dzogchen teachings. Dzogchen (AKA Atiyoga) is a nondualist philosophy that is beyond scripture very much like Zen. The practice is to be aware of each thought, emotion, sensation, shape and color (each "object") as it arises in the mind before conceptual thinking filters the experience moment to moment. The difference between Zen and Dzogchen is that Dzogchen recognizes that even all these elemental experiences and objects arise, have their being in, and dissolve back into the ground of consciousness (Rigpa). Dzogchen teachings state: "Although all phenomena is inherently empty and void of any inherent independent existence or meaning, as ephemeral as a dream, it still continues to manifest." How this relates to dreams is that the Dzogchen teaches to stay in this flow 24/7 one must also practice during the night. Getting hung up on interpreting dreams and searching for meaning is to be distracted from the true work which is to recognize all phenomena as an expression of Rigpa and to ultimately dissolve it back into the matrix of consciousness. Any meaning found in dreaming is not in the dreams inherently but attributed to the dreams by our conceptual mind. Trying to improve oneself psychologically through finding meaning in dreams is like trying to walk to the horizon or trying to take a close up photo of the horizon: you will either be doing this forever or become frustrated never reaching your goal. Dzogchen teaches that there is no need to improve oneself if one recognizes the truth that everything is Rigpa, you are already the Buddha. By remaining poised outside or before the conceptual mind (it takes a moment before an experience is conceptualized, making people who live in the conceptual mind living their lives conceptualizing what happened a moment previously and thus never actually experiencing reality as it happens directly.) the dream dissolves into the "clear light of sleep", which is Rigpa, which is the ground of all consciousness and experience, which is the true identity. I feel paradoxically as a formless infinite shiny void that is pure consciousness but centered and radiating from my heart region. I have only became aware of the clear light of sleep a few times, but many times I have worked directly with the dream as the flow and fabric of my mind. I have watched DCs become enlightened and become transparent and glow as the whole dream turns to light and I become nothing but infinite empty pure consciousness like a calm invisible ocean. Getting hung up on meaning and messages makes me lose the focus of the flow and glow, and seems to bring in dualism between me and my mind. Of course Dzogchen is a very high and advanced teaching, in fact it is the highest (it translates literally as "the Great Perfection") and I am an amateur so most of the time I am doing my psychological Jungian style dreamwork. So to summarize, I use both the psychological and the spiritual like two wings to fly to enlightenment. Sorry for the long and sometimes irrelevant post and getting all metaphysical and all. Hope I have not degraded the quality of this thread as I enjoy the respectful attitude of this thread.

[aries88]

I'm so glad you brought metaphysical connections into consideration Dannon, earlier when I was discussing with Velzhead I had a hard time trying to fathom how spirituality might tie in to lucid dreaming - of course I'm guessing this is mostly because I'm still trying to figure out my own beliefs. Anyway having said that I found your post fascinating. First I'd like to address how you look at the mind and the distinctions between the conscious and the subconscious, I love your sunset analogy. That makes sense to me because I do believe parts of the mind are better capable of understanding different forms of information (logic vs. emotion) but after discussing with Velzhead I’ve felt unsure. This is why I’m so fond of the sunset analogy because it provides me with a new, comfortable way to look at the mind. Further, I also really admire your approach to using dreams to learn more about yourself and enlightenment (I apologize if I've worded that incorrectly). I’m very interested in how you talk about overcoming fears. One thing I’ve noticed is that even when I go lucid, I still fall out of it if negative emotions work their way into my experience, particularly fear of “past demons.” I’ve been trying to overcome certain things from my past, and obviously I would like to do so, whether that’s through dreaming or not. On a side note: I do realize that dealing with past problems is probably best done consciously, but regardless of that I’m still curious as to whether or not lucid dreaming could be of any assistance. So with that said, the reason the fears sometimes take over my lucid dreams (even when I know I’m in control) is that I have this weird idea in the back of my mind that maybe those past problems would somehow manifest themselves in my dream - I know they couldn’t actually harm me, but for some reason that possibility is enough to disrupt my dreams. After reading what you said about the scary mansion, and I’m assuming you mean fixing it up is like a symbolic way of overcoming a fear, I’m wondering if perhaps I could take a similar approach with my negative emotions and basically fight them away, “slay” them. I imagine this would occur like a fantasy showdown, me fighting a scary troll monster or something, but maybe this whole idea is silly. I guess the question would become how much growth can we stimulate in the dream world? I feel like overcoming fears and overcoming past problems are two very different things. Moving onto your metaphysical references, first again thank you for posting! The background information was very helpful, though I have trouble completely understanding it, and again I think this is simply because I’m not familiar with the teachings. I’d say it’s always hard for someone on the outside looking in to fully grasp such concepts. For example you said “Any meaning found in dreaming is not in the dreams inherently but attributed to the dreams by our conceptual mind.” If it’s possible could you elaborate on this a little more? I’m very intrigued and I’d like to comprehend it more clearly. I think I have a basic idea of how you use dreams as a spiritual experience, but at the same time I think full comprehension is sublime, I’d have to feel it for myself to really know what you mean. But again I just want to reiterate that despite those questions I’m very thankful that you brought this perspective into the discussion. (Another side note, are you familiar with the art of Alex Grey? I've read one of his books and a lot of what you're saying about spirituality reminds me of what he depicts in his paintings.) I apologize for writing another long post, just trying to keep the discussion going and learn more. I do hope more people chime in on this topic.