Can Lucid Dreamers....?

[DvDGuY]

I been wonderign about somethign for a while and i honestly have no ideas if it has been discussed before. Can lucid dreamers mantain more control when drunk or under influence of other drugs. Our conscious mind can get altered and distort reality but what about our subconscience? can lucid dreamers keep morecontrol or at least think straight when drunk or high? any thought in this?

[Seeker]

I know for a fact that I cannot, other peoples results may vary. There have been some times when I've gone to bed after a few drinks and become lucid. I usually find that my lucids under these conditions are fuzzy and difficult to maintain. Another thing I've noticed is that I feel an extreme sense of tiredness and the desire to just let the lucid dream fade and return to non-lucid sleep.

[Lucidinthesky]

Its funny you asked htis question becuase i was going to myself. I personally feel like being very drunk often causes me to have lucid dreams, and almost always causes me to have amazingly detailed dreams that i remember in the morning to a crazy degree. I think part of this is casue my image of the night before is no better then my image of the dream period. I was wondering if theres any link to marijuana consumption and lucid dreams, because i happen to be a lucid dreamer thats never tried to attain these dreams they just happen, and i also happen to smoke marijuana on a frequent (daily) basis. ??

[simpsin]

I think your asking if we are able to control whether we are drunk or high after smoking or drinking and I dont think so. I have never really focused on trying to do so other than acting straight around adults but I never feel as if I have full control of it. I'm gonna smoke tomorrow so I'll try really hard and then post again.

[nina]

I've been able to have lucid dreams under the influence of anti-anxiety drugs (like xanax) but I noticed that the clarity, realism, and control were about 50% less than they would typically be. Also, I've had lucid dreams under the influence of amphetamines (like adderall) and noticed that they were extremely realistic, I had much control, and were very clear. As far as alcohol, it makes my dream recall nonexistant. And I don't think I smoke enough to make an informed decision about that.

[YULAW]

Thats a good question for sure. I know I've went to bed after being intoxicated and I never once had a Lucid dream. Intoxication takes away my Lucid abilities, which is the cool thing because everyone is different I know some people that can go Super Lucid only when going to bed Drunk as a Skunk.... haha!

[simpsin]

Are you asking if it is easy to have and LD when under the influence or are you asking whether it is easy to not feel under the influence when under the influence because LDers are more in touch with their subconcious and can will unintoxication?

[Matchbook]

Well I can answer from my experience. I don't drink, so I don't know about the effects of intoxication on LDs, but I was using a legal psychedelic on a weekly basis a few months ago (from 10/04 to 2/05), and noticed DEFINITE changes in my dreaming. Before using it, I was having lucid dreams about once every 2 weeks. After using it, and even after stopping, I have had lucids almost every night. The funny thing is, the night of using it, while still under the influence, I had no dreams (literally, because of not being able to reach REM levels because of its effect). But the very next night, I noticed that the dreams were incredible and lucid almost the entire night. The extraoridinary vivid and lucid dreams would last about 1 week after using it, but still since discontinuing the use, I still have lucid dreams nearly every night (except for the occasional dry spell). Apparently it worked as some "unclogger" for the highway between my conscious and subconscious; a Drano if you will. But as I said, while under the influence, it didn't conjure any dreams, but once the influence was gone, my dreams and LDs skyrocketted. Sort of like while being under the influence, the drug was a construction crew working on the road between my conscious and subconscious, and wouldn't allow me to dream while it was at work, but then after it was done, I could zoom down my newly paved road and relish the fantastic dreams.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by DvDGuY I been wonderign about somethign for a while and i honestly have no ideas if it has been discussed before. Can lucid dreamers mantain more control when drunk or under influence of other drugs. Our conscious mind can get altered and distort reality but what about our subconscience? can lucid dreamers keep morecontrol or at least think straight when drunk or high? any thought in this? At my age I would have noticed a positive correlation of an increased rate of Lucidity with anything. So, no, drinking and drugs do not help; and, again, used in moderation, on off nights, they don't seem to impede the overall rate of Lucidity.

[DvDGuY]

I guess my my question wasn't clear but it brought up a lot of intersting points i had not considered. i smoke pot regulary and it really has no eefect on my dream realism or recall. my question was if lucid dreamers are able to have moments of clearity while intoxicated in the waking life. i guess the alcohol or drugs don't really affect the subcouscience but it does effect the consceince mind in different ways. I'm a casual drinker, and the few times i have been "shit faced" i can remember myself saying to myself i'm only drunk..it kind feels like a dream, but i do have a clear mind when this happen just distorted. dreaming while drunk for me is a night full of vivid dreams but i do have to be really SF

[Leo Volont]

Dear DVDGuy, Oh! I see what you were originally saying. I was confused by your use of the word Lucid Dreamer. My assumption was that we are only Lucid Dreamers when we are in fact Lucid Dreaming, when you were speaking of Waking People who had experience being Lucid Dreamers... you were asking about crossover behavior. I'm sure I should have paid a bit more attention to what you were saying... it is clear enough after your explanation. Yes, I do think that some of the same skills that make for a skilled Lucid Dreamer would help to keep one from being a crazed drug addict or from being a mean and wildly beserk drunk. That is the habit of reflecting upon one's self and one's behavior. For instance, back in the old LSD Days there were those who would think they could fly and jump off penthouse balconies. But many hippies found such behavior entirely bazaar, because as strange as any appearance could become under the influence of these psychotropic drugs, still the general thinking was always "Hey man, it's only a Trip." The habit of reflection doubles one's control over one's life. However, one should be careful about the excess of drugs and alcohol. Remember how fat and dumpy it made Elvis. Indeed, take a look at any room full of old people and pick out those who are most ugly and pathetic and you can be almost entirely assured that a significant contributing cause of their decline was drugs and alcohol. They call Vanity a sin, but actually a smidge of Vanity is a great protection if it can be our ally in convincing us to refrain from these unhealthy indulgences.

[Matchbook]

DvDguy, I apologize, I also did not understand the phrasing of your question. But I do imagine that if you learn to exert more control while you are in your subconscious, you will in turn be more able to maintain control while intoxicated or under the influence of drugs, because a lot of drugs seem to bring out a lot of subconscious thoughts and feelings. So if you have learned how to maintain control of those thoughts and feelings while dreaming, you could probably do the same while intoxicated by something. I have noticed that when I was using a psychedelic a few months back, I seemed to be in more control than others I knew that had or were using it. Not saying they were "out of control" but many of them could not seem to organize their thoughts and would sometimes become a little delerious. I wondered why I seemed to have such an easier time. But now you brought up an interesting question, which may help explain it. Your question was sort of my answer. I had always been good with lucid dreaming and maintaining control of subconscious thoughts, so I was in familiar territory while under the influence. Also, I noticed that the effect of the psychedelic I was using was very much like a lucid dream in nature. Things appeared dreamlike, thoughts were abstract and often cryptic, etc. But somehow I felt like it was all familiar. So thanks for asking your question. Leo, I'll have to disagree with you about drugs (mind-alterring drugs) not being able to have a positive effect on dreaming or lucid dreaming. But I also would like to say as well, that I don't think anyone should start taking a drug for lucid dreaming purposes (or with the majority of drugs, any purpose), especially if they are illegal. But that being said, I personally saw a profound difference in my dreaming activity after the use of a psychedelic. The difference was not minimal, it was completely noticeable, catapulting me into another level of dreaming (especially lucid dreaming). But, chances are though, that the definite majority of drugs will not have an effect on lucid or regular dreaming. Although I've heard that opiates and cocaine and some other drugs can almost entirely obliterate your recollection of dreams altogether. Another point that should be made is that it completely depends on the person. Some people may experience no difference whatsoever, simply because of their mental stature. I've talked to other people that have not noticed a difference in dreaming because of the use of the aforementioned psychedelic, and then others that have. So it can vary widely. Also, the psychedelic I was using, I have recently noticed is listed as a helpful source in lucid dreaming. I would specify what it is, but I would rather withhold it, in case avid lucid dreamers decide to try it blindly (it is legal, though). Anyway, the reason that I believe it DOES help, is because it increases serotonin levels in the brain, which is converted into melatonin, which is helpful for lucid dreaming (for some people). With the excess melatonin in the body, lucid or vivid dreams may become much more likely. Of course, if it were only the melatonin causing this, then you could just take melatonin. But I do notice the difference between both. There are other factors involved, such as changes in brain receptors, etc. Anyway, I am not sure if I am even completely relevant to what you were stating, because you made a pretty short, broad statement, but I thought another point of view should be given.

[Leo Volont]

Dear Matchbook, It is a difficult argument to answer, that drugs are absolutely unnecessary to Lucid Dreaming, as we would have to evoke the experience of somebody who has never taken a psychotropic. It would be like trying to find a 14 year old virgin in California -- one wonders whether such a person would even exist anymore. but then again, in some of the recent Intros we have had claims of Lucidity going back to when they were 4 or 5 years old (which is most odd considering that some people can't even remember having been 4 and 5 years old, let alone the remembering the details of their dreamlives back then). But one would suppose that children that young would have had some difficulty in procuring drugs, with their mothers insisting that they stay sober except for the prescription drugs for their Attention Deficit Disorders or whatever.

[Ev]

Originally posted by DvDGuY Can lucid dreamers mantain more control when drunk or under influence of other drugs. Our conscious mind can get altered and distort reality but what about our subconscience? can lucid dreamers keep morecontrol or at least think straight when drunk or high? any thought in this? Yes, as a lucid dreamer I can experience drugs differently. You can have more control over the trip, keep "bad" things checked and think much clearer, as you are familiar with altered states of consciousness. Moreover, you can experience just about any trip a notch deeper. The only problem I see with LD knowledge and being intoxicated is that you might actually think you are in a dreamworld and do some stupid things... (never happened to me tho)

[Matchbook]

Leo, You are correct that it is difficult to find a true answer to that question (not the actual question that DvDguy asked). But I was just giving my account. I had never tried a drug until mid-last year. I had lucid dreams long before that. I just noticed the extreme change immediately after using it, which I couldn't imagine would be coincidence. Let's just say that most drugs won't have a positive effect on lucid dreaming, except for possible exceptions; those exceptions possibly being a certain psychoactive or the person themselves.

[Nirvana Starseed]

The full effect of these different drugs on the mind including subconsious is generally not known. This means the damage it does to you, and also the benifits of the drugs are not known. It is a big mess. Just a mixture of generally random chemicals created from ignorance. Research is limited due to the mess of our society and it's structure. Since everyone reacts in their own way to these drugs and that our full scope of reality is not understood. This adds to the confusion. I believe it is possible to make a drug that would open up our higher senses. To help us spiritually and physically. Help us in many different ways. A drug that benifits lucid dreaming. Drugs for recreation without damage of the mind. Drugs that heal disease. the sky is the limit. You have seen some of the effects of drugs that are made from ignorance. If these resources of nature could be cultivated and created for the proper reason, under a higher spiritual understanding. much could be achieved and realized in this area. The effects are unlimited in what could be created. The only thing is it would take is intense reseach and desire. A total unraveling of society as we know it. Humanity does not have the resources and is in no condition to advance in this area any time soon. If humanity was mature enough to develop these drugs for these purposes, we would also have gathered sufficent wisdom and spiritual understanding that would reveal the true nature of reality and purpose. And therefore the need for drugs would become less important as we would become in control of our own minds and advance ourselves. However everything including technology can be used positivly or negativly acording to our understanding and choices about how we are use it. For example you can use technology for the sole purpose of advancing yourself spiritually. or you can use it to make your life easier. Or you can use it to exploit and enslave. it's the same thing with drugs or anything else. We are spiriutal beings having an experience and our choices and experience will lead to whatever result we desire or choose. I know that is a very vague and diverse answer to the question. But the answer is simply not known and this is the best way I know how to answer that.

[Leo Volont]

Dear Nirvanastarseed, Even while they are extolling freedom and pretending to deplore dictatorships and tyrannies it seems that nearly every Western Government is hell bent that no citizen be euphoric. I think they suppose that much of the control that employers have over their employees is through fear and intimidation, but if people could legally take a pill that would make them laugh in the faces of such extortionate employment practices, then their grand system of Exploitation would unravel. Our Economies run on Fear not Happiness. Of course, they may have a bit of a point. What makes people get out of bed in the morning to report to their tedious jobs is the hope that they can someday work themselves out of the hole and either retire and be happy, or buy that one consumer Thing that would make them happy. What makes a guy marry the girl next door but the expectation that she will make him happy. If just a pill could do it, all of these other social and economic motivations would simply collapse. We can see in our schools with just the unsophisticated natural euphorics such as marijuana -- getting high is more fun than doing homework and studying engineering, so stupid kids smoke pot and dream of actually making a living playing guitar but end up scraping bottom with nothing. And that is an accidental and chemically incomplete euphoric. Just think if a drug was synthesized taking full cognizance of the brains chemistry so that a complete euphoria could be triggered. Wife, kids, jobs, bosses, schools, consumer goods, eating meals, even personal hygiene would all take a far second place to finding a Doctor that would sign that Prescription for Happiness. But still, it urkes me that politicians keep pushing everybody into military world conquest for the sake of a Freedom that we have in general but in none of the particulars. They should stop lying about it and simply claim that our social regulations are morally and economically superior to the social regulations of whoever happens to be our current enemy. Afterall, we are all grownups and can understand that some Tyranical Dictatorships must be better than others. But to lie and tell us that we are Free... well, then, where do we line up for our completely legalized Happy Pills, if we are so Free?

[Howie]

I guess one clear example of why drugs or alchohol hinder LDs is tha fact that the term LUCID means obvious, distinct, evident, unblurred and understandable. and what do drugs do? Alter that effect on your mind. Also most drugs effect memory. Alcholhol I believe even destroys tissue in the hippocampus and the cortex. If not used in moderation. Drugs that do make you seem to be more alert while awake seem to take their toll on the sleeping mind. The only catagory that has been reported to have help aid any memory recall and brain cognition would be the herb catagory.

[Nirvana Starseed]

Leo Volont, Good post. I can't say I dissagree with you.