Thread: Who or what should we blame for the lack of lucidity ?

On a small break at work so can't continue my previous post, but just wanted people to consider a small thing regarding this "what is lucidity" that StephL and Sageous are still discussing:

StephL, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if children had a much higher lucid dreaming frequency than most people expect: after all, they're forming brain connections at incredible rates, and unlike adults, at a huge development period when it comes to integrate experiences into their mental schemas. My question is:

What does that have to do with lucid dreaming being hard-wired into humans, or even being an evolutionary intention?

You do make a compelling point regarding lucidity as a process that would arise in our evolutionary path, but you're assuming that lucidity is an evolutionary product of consciousness, which in itself would be another evolutionary product. But we don't know this, and this is (I think) where Sageous makes total sense: how can we state that lucidity is an evolutionary intention when consciousness itself might just as well be an evolutionary byproduct of language? It makes much more sense that lucidity is a byproduct of the dreaming mechanism (a "glitch" if you may) then a trait for evolution. Why? Because children alone cannot possibly account for a trait that would make evolutionary sense: high lucid dream frequency would have to be present throughout the whole period of human life.
Besides that, we already know that lucid dreams happen spontaneously: join that to the initial characteristics of children that I posted in the first paragraph, and is it that special that so many children have lucid dreams? (and we're assuming this based on anecdotal evidence several of us presented, in a lucid dreaming forum)

You tell Sageous that it must be hard-wired and easy accessible, but then you create a much complex question: why would children loose that ability to lucid dream as they grow up? There are several other aspects to consider, but even then, evolutionary designed and hard-wired are completely different things: hard-wired meaning innate, meaning it would stick forever, and be present on everyone. Clearly we aren't hardwired.

I just realized I lost myself again: I wasn't meant to talk about this, but instead about what is lucidity xD I already posted this in another topic, but for the sake of everyone seeing it:

For THOLEY (1985) the following points have to be fulfilled to define a lucid dream: THOLEY compiled a list of prerequisite factors that have to be present to define a lucid dream:

Clarity (Klarheit) about the status of consciousness: Awareness that one is dreaming
Clarity (Klarheit) about the freedom of decision: The ability within the dream to choose a course of action...
Clarity (Klarheit) of consciousness, as opposed to a state of confusion
Clarity (Klarheit) about the waking life: about who you are and what, if any, your plans were for this dream
Clarity (Klarheit) of perception: what can be seen, heard, smelt, tasted or felt sometimes much more intense
Clarity (Klarheit) of recollection of the dream. You know, that you will remember this dream, that you can remember other dreams already dreamt while dreaming
Clarity (Klarheit) of meaning: You know, why you dream this dream and you know, what the (hidden) meaning is
The first four points of THOLEY’s definition of lucid dreaming is widely accepted whereas the last two points are open to discussion and often not accepted as absolute prerequisites.

For the definition of lucid dream like THOLEY introduced it, (1) to (7). For Stephen LaBERGE only (1) and (2) are required. (3) to (7) are more like features of this wonderful often quite ecstatic dream state (in German called “Klartraum” oder “luzider Traum”).

I'd agree with StephL on this one: lucidity is lucidity, knowing that you are in a dream provokes significant changes to your brain activity. But Sageous view get's me thinking: the definition of what a lucid dream is it's only that....a definition, and may not necessarily represent the phenomenon perfectly. Now playing a bit of semantics:

lucid: Mentally sound; sane or rational. readily understood; clear; psychiatry of or relating to a period of normality between periods of insane or irresponsible behaviour

Now, if we assume some of these common definitions, then lucid involves more than knowing you are dreaming: you can't be lucid if you can't think properly and rationally. If we take the literal translation of lucid dream "being aware that you are in a dream", then unconscious lucidity would be in the same category of higher-level lucidity (which would be really insulting indeed, because we're practically talking about radically different experiences). If "lucid dream" was coined after the "lucidity" that you experience in the waking life, then being aware that you are dreaming wouldn't cut it: we can't be considered "lucid" while hallucinating with LSD while knowing we are in the train hallucinating and not in disney land riding pluto, can we?
Hmmm now I'm undecided lol, unsure if we should stick to the traditional definition and go from there( so I'd agree with StephL because lucidity would just be another part of the spectrum of consciousness) or integrate lucidity as something that transcends the dream - after all, "lucid" was being used for waking life before it was used to describe a certain type of dream (in that case, I'd agree with Sageous completely). Back to work!