Thread: Dreams Within Dreams, What's Your Experience?

@Sageous - I'm not aiming to create an argument, but I'm open to a nice discussion/debate.

In my opinion, I think your looking at this a little too literally, you're not allowing yourself to think of this in the correct fashion. Since one is dreaming while this is occurring, I think it's safe to say that there is really no limits as to what can happen, dreaming within your dream, being one of them. I'd like to add that what's happening is that one finds themself dreaming a dream, where they dream a dream within that dream. So, you are correct, yes, but also wrong.

Firstly, I'd like to point out that this is my opinion/theory, none of this has been dis/proven, so it's all equally invalid and valid.

You are right that this is only a single dream, and it really only can be that. However, Who's to say that within this dream, you cannot create a dream within it? You are then dreaming of a dream. Which is really not far fetched.. You can think about thinking about a thought, can you not? It's all being encased by thinking, yes. However, you can go deeper then a singular thought. Just as with dreaming, you can go deeper then a singular dream. Your dream simply encases another dream (The second dream).

Just as with reality, when we dream, reality is still in existence. With dreaming, once you dream about dreaming another dream within your initial dream, the initial dream is not lost. For if it was, your second dream would be lost as well, considering it was only going through that initial dream that enabled you to reach the second.

Furthermore, I believe that had it not been for your opposition of this idea, I would not have not taken the time to map out what could be happening. Your note on cognitive-dissonance being an issue must have been a factor in the dream when not knowing what was going on/not believing it to be true. Thus, diminishing the lucidity. If you still oppose the concept, please, tell me why in detail. Because you were not wrong, but not entirely right as well. I've drawn up a little sketch to make it easier to comprehend the concept as well, if anyone, including yourself would like to see.

We seem to be in general agreement, Validus, but here are some thoughts about why I posted, and why it might still matter:

Originally Posted by Validus

In my opinion, I think your looking at this a little too literally, you're not allowing yourself to think of this in the correct fashion. Since one is dreaming while this is occurring, I think it's safe to say that there is really no limits as to what can happen, dreaming within your dream, being one of them. I'd like to add that what's happening is that one finds themself dreaming a dream, where they dream a dream within that dream. So, you are correct, yes, but also wrong.

Based on your OP (more in a sec), I do not think I was being too literal.

Yes, one can certainly have a dream wherein they imagine they are dreaming within their original dream... but they are imagining it; there is no process that I know of in which a DC can have a dream. So sure, one could certainly have a NLD where they dream they're waking up into another dream, or they could conjure one, or two, or more dreams within dreams if lucid. But whether it is done through non-lucid schema or lucid control, this dream-within-a-dream is still an illusion -- there is, in the end, only one dream. Now, that one dream can be incredibly complicated, or consist of Flowofmysoul's multiple schemata lying in cue, but it is still just one dream.

To say, as you did in the OP, that you were "[sent] a dream deeper" tells me that you were saying that there was more than one dream process going on. This implies, I think, that the dream-within-a-dream was not an illusion for you, but a definite condition into which you were drawn. So, I guess I took your OP literally because you were using a literal definition of a dream-within-a-dream. My misunderstanding, I guess!

You are right that this is only a single dream, and it really only can be that. However, Who's to say that within this dream, you cannot create a dream within it? You are then dreaming of a dream. Which is really not far fetched.. You can think about thinking about a thought, can you not? It's all being encased by thinking, yes. However, you can go deeper then a singular thought. Just as with dreaming, you can go deeper then a singular dream. Your dream simply encases another dream (The second dream).

Agreed.

But isn't this creation of another dream during your dream more of an intellectual pursuit? Isn't it something you are doing on purpose, rather than something that happens to you which must be dealt with? And as an intellectual pursuit you are creating this "deeper" dream with the full knowledge that you've done so, and also with the full knowledge that this deeper dream is a construct formed of the same stuff from which your "original" dream came, and not from something initiated by the dream body you just vacated. In other words, you are simply creating a new dream scene that conforms to your wishes -- it's an excellent exercise, but should it really be thought of as something other than just another process of your overall dream?

Just as with reality, when we dream, reality is still in existence. With dreaming, once you dream about dreaming another dream within your initial dream, the initial dream is not lost. For if it was, your second dream would be lost as well, considering it was only going through that initial dream that enabled you to reach the second.

I don't agree.

If you lose that initial dream, you will still be in the second dream, without any need of the initial dream, and possibly any memory of it. This transition from dream schema to dream schema is fairly normal. To assume that erasure of the first dream means the second dream is gone too tells me that you do think that the first dream's "dreamer" had a hand in manufacturing the second dream. This is simply not true; DC's do not dream; your dreaming mind has no need to "go through" a previous dream in order to sustain the current production.

So, no, you will not lose your second dream if the first goes away, because the source of both dreams is the same: you and your dreaming mind. The first dream holds no sway over the second dream, because it had no hand in generating it (the second dream) in the first place. If your dreaming mind (or your LD'ing self-awareness, for that matter) chooses to offer the illusion of some causal connection between the two dreams, and it certainly could, that connection would be an illusion. A meaningfully symbolic illusion, perhaps, but still an illusion. Your dreaming mind has direct input into all your various dream schemata -- there are no intermediaries.

To sum all this up, I fully agree with you if you state that this dream-within-a-dream concept is just that: a concept, one that you inserted into your dream to enjoy or learn from the fascinating imagery a dream-within-a-dream schema might provide. But if you say that the second dream is dependent on the first, thus making it a part of the first, or if you say that this dream-within-a-dream is a real thing that happens to you, even when lucid, well, that is where I get to say I think you might be mistaken.

I hope some of this made sense; I had to put it down very quickly.