• Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views




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    Thread: Dreams Within Dreams, What's Your Experience?

    1. #1
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      Question Dreams Within Dreams, What's Your Experience?

      So recently, I've been having a lot of False Awakenings, and experiences of full dreams within an initial dream where something would occur that would send me a dream deeper. It's quite interesting to me when this happens, and usually within the second dream, my non-lucid goals become very predominant. Since this is occurring, within my second dream, I attain lucidity very easily. However, there's a problem with this. I also am loosing my lucidity very quickly as well. I really don't know why, my guess is that there is just too much information involved. As if the 'Wires' are getting crossed and kinked, and everything is just becoming cluttered and unbearable. Thus, hurling me back into the initial dream, along with loosing the previous lucid state.

      I really just want to hear your guys' experiences with Dreams inside of Dreams, because to me it's pretty fascinating. However, If you have any opinions as to what could be happening within that second dream that is allowing lucidity to be gained/lost to easily, please, post away!
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      I had this same experience this week. I kept waking into a false awakening in which I was in sleep paralysis, then moving back into the same dreamscene. My lucidity levels were constantly up and down.

      I've only been at this for a month and have almost no experience with lucid dreaming, so can't offer more.
      Last edited by GlasgowGuy; 01-31-2014 at 10:32 PM.
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      everytime i have a dream within a dream i literally go to sleep in my dream...
      its so weird...
      ill be having my regular dream then somehow wind up in bed and fall asleep
      then i awake only to be in my second dream sequence and its always much more vivid and detailed

      dreams within dreams are trippy and usually when i wake up in my dream (into my 2nd dream) the setting is in my bedroom so sometimes i believe im really awake but then something weird happens and i realize its still a dream

      id say the most important thing to do anytime your dreams involve second awakenings, ur bedroom, sleeping, or your house is to do a reality check because its hard to tell whats real and whats a dream sometimes...
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      CUINDREAMLAND

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      I usually fall asleep in my dream and end up in a new dream scene, sometimes when I wake up from that dream i wake up in the previous dream or wake up all together. I do find that I am usually much more likely to become lucid in the second dream, not sure as to the full reason of this but the dream does feel more stable and vivid (very colorful) than the previous dream, which may be a factor in the increased chance of lucidity.

      I also had a sleep paralysis from waking from a second dream into a previous dream, was a pretty intense experience, considering I never really have sleep paralysis in waking state.
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      @cuindreamland1

      everytime i have a dream within a dream i literally go to sleep in my dream...
      its so weird...
      ill be having my regular dream then somehow wind up in bed and fall asleep
      Yeah, that's how I enter the second dream as well. Ill either find myself falling asleep in my bed in the dream, or fall over and fall asleep abruptly in a certain scenario and enter the second dream. And yea, In regards to reality checks to catch my FA's, I've just recently created the habit of doing so when I wake up, and at various times during the day.

      @Rodrodrod

      the dream does feel more stable and vivid (very colorful) than the previous dream
      Very much so, there could very easily be a direct correlation between the two. When I enter the second dream, its almost as if each object is emanating energy, almost producing an aura of colour around itself. I haven't yet woke into the initial dream from the first dream though, at least from what I can recall. Only direct wakening into reality from the second dream.


      Going into an additional dream once in an initial dream it quite interesting, though. I'm glad other people have experienced it as well. Thanks for your replies!
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      The only experience I've had is a false awakening with the sudden realisation I had forgotten to do something and actually walked downstairs in a false awakened lucid dream state (OBE my guess) followed closely by dream of a false awakening same scenario except it developed into a longer vivid dream.

      Somehow I think the idea of dreaming within a dream is more of a fast transition between completely different dreams and dream states which make them seem intertwined.
      Last edited by Desryachri; 02-08-2014 at 12:00 PM.
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      When I get into another dream inside a dream, I usually feel dizzy or feel that my soul has departed my body. From my point of view, this reflects fatigue in real life and a sort of getting drowned further in the "sea of unconsciousness"
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      I sometimes dream within a dream. My most vivid dream about this was when I dreamed some really complex thing involving something coming to destroy our world, and my father (not my IRL father) somehow knowing why but refusing to tell anyone. I went to "sleep" in that dream and dreamed within the dream a memory of my dream-dad having met a girl in his childhood and promising to the girl that they would make their own world together. I woke up from that dream into my previous dream, to which the girl that my father had made the promise to was the same woman who was going to destroy our world, from her grief of having her hopes abandoned by my dream-dad.

      I'm not sure what dreaming-within-dreams mean, since I'm not very good at telling the meaning of dreams. They tend to be to me more like small universes in of themselves, so it's strange for me to analyze them.
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      Much as it pains me, and will likely pain me later, to put a crack in this apparent echo chamber, there is no such thing as a dream within a dream.

      It may feel that way, especially if you remember your previous dream while also in the midst of a false awakening, but you really are dreaming one dream at a time, and your current dream has the same status as the previous one, even if you feel like your dreaming body went to sleep and started its own dreaming process.

      Dream characters do not dream, and Inception was just a movie. We really do dream one dream at a time, they are all encased equally in our physical brains, and, because DC's do not have physical brains, they cannot produce their own dreams.

      I'm sure this post is going to go over real well here, but I felt this needed saying. FA's and memory offering up the feeling that your current dream is within another might have their purposes, but try to understand that these things are feelings and imagery; there really are no dreams within dreams.
      Last edited by Sageous; 02-09-2014 at 07:45 AM.
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      ^^ I forgot to mention, Validus, that you might be losing lucidity because you are allowing yourself to believe as real the imagery of a dream within a dream. Perhaps the cognitive-dissonance of buying into the dream-within-dream schema was enough to loosen your self-awareness?
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      I can understand where you are coming from, where our dreaming selves are not starting their own dreaming process, but it doesn't always feel like it's the same dream, and what makes the most sense to me at least is that i entered another dream. For that to happen I think there'd be more than one dream occurring at any one time like so:

      http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...i-layered.html

      This makes sense to me in terms of fast dream transition and transitions to different storylines where I have some additional knowledge that I did not have in the previous dream.

      Would love to hear your thoughts though.
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      I can't recall literally laying down to sleep and dreaming within a dream, but I resonate with the link you posted, Rodrodrod. I've had experiences of dreams layered on top of one another, around 3-4 at a time, occurring at the same time - though they were not as this OP mentions 'a dream within a dream'. They were simply sequences running at the same time as one another. From what I can tell of my own experience, this requires multiple points of perception along with rapid synchronized information cataloging. In this way, [perceived] layered dreams are distinct from singular dreams.
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      Ah, I had one of these dream within a dream things quite recently... Not completely though. As in I didn't actually get into the second dream. In the initial one, what happened was I was actually in bed about to go to sleep. Kind of felt like sleep paralysis, or something like that, to be honest. It was a really bizzare sensation. I woke up not too long after the transition to the second dream started... Back into the first dream, that is. Also not too long after that I actually woke up. Personally, I'm going to try and stay away from this stuff, it's not really helpful and just kinda scares me. Then again, when I was in sleep paralysis I was scared of a floating big bowling ball that made dying giraffe sounds...
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      Oof.



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      Quote Originally Posted by Rodrodrod View Post
      I can understand where you are coming from, where our dreaming selves are not starting their own dreaming process, but it doesn't always feel like it's the same dream, and what makes the most sense to me at least is that i entered another dream.
      Yes, of course it doesn't feel like the same dream, or that you've entered another dream, or else this thread would not have been started, I think. But there are a lot of things happening in dreams that are not what they seem. For example, we are not really flying when we fly, or teleporting, or having lunch on the moon when we dream, but it sure feels that way! Why must the sensation of dreaming within a dream indicate it is actually, physically happening when we easily dismiss the reality of pretty much everything else that's going on? [Side Note: yes, there are those who might think that all these things are real, or portend something real, but this is not the Beyond Dreaming forum, so I assume we're not going there this time.]

      For that to happen I think there'd be more than one dream occurring at any one time like so:

      http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...i-layered.html

      This makes sense to me in terms of fast dream transition and transitions to different storylines where I have some additional knowledge that I did not have in the previous dream.
      I found a lot of sense in Flowofmysoul's concept, and certainly can see a case for several dreams (or at least the stuff of them) spooling in your unconscious while you are within your current dream, and maybe catching a glimpse of the dream bullpen during transitions from one to the other. That happens to me often -- I had a session just the other day that seemed like the collision of five different dreams. However, I do not think Flowofmysoul was talking about dreams within dreams at all (I hope he'll correct me if I got that wrong). I could see someone who comes across those other dreams thinking that they were dreaming them from within their last DC self, but just assuming that's what happened doesn't make it so.

      Here's one last possibly relevant thought: if you lay your dream body down to "sleep," of course you are going to enter a new dream thinking you are having a dream within a dream. This is, after all, exactly what you intended to feel when you lay down; why would your dreaming mind give you something that didn't match your expectations?
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Much as it pains me, and will likely pain me later, to put a crack in this apparent echo chamber, there is no such thing as a dream within a dream.

      It may feel that way, especially if you remember your previous dream while also in the midst of a false awakening, but you really are dreaming one dream at a time, and your current dream has the same status as the previous one, even if you feel like your dreaming body went to sleep and started its own dreaming process.

      Dream characters do not dream, and Inception was just a movie. We really do dream one dream at a time, they are all encased equally in our physical brains, and, because DC's do not have physical brains, they cannot produce their own dreams.

      I'm sure this post is going to go over real well here, but I felt this needed saying. FA's and memory offering up the feeling that your current dream is within another might have their purposes, but try to understand that these things are feelings and imagery; there really are no dreams within dreams.
      Oh, I agree that we only dream one dream at a time when it comes to such things. I thought they were simply talking about dreams that had that kind of dream-within-a-dream theme to it, either from sleeping in a dream and going into another dream or something like that. I apologize if I seemed to imply otherwise...
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      I too don't believe that Flowofmysoul was talking about dream within dreams, what I was trying to say was that I don't quite agree with when you said
      but you really are dreaming one dream at a time
      because of that thread and how I too have experienced what seems to be several dreams running simultaneously. My bad, in terms of communicating what I meant.

      But you are absolutely right, things are not what they seem to be, and when we expect to enter a "new dream" we will most likely have the experience of entering one. I guess in the end what matters is the experience and how they affect us. Thanks for your thoughts =)
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      @Sageous - I'm not aiming to create an argument, but I'm open to a nice discussion/debate.

      In my opinion, I think your looking at this a little too literally, you're not allowing yourself to think of this in the correct fashion. Since one is dreaming while this is occurring, I think it's safe to say that there is really no limits as to what can happen, dreaming within your dream, being one of them. I'd like to add that what's happening is that one finds themself dreaming a dream, where they dream a dream within that dream. So, you are correct, yes, but also wrong.

      Firstly, I'd like to point out that this is my opinion/theory, none of this has been dis/proven, so it's all equally invalid and valid.

      You are right that this is only a single dream, and it really only can be that. However, Who's to say that within this dream, you cannot create a dream within it? You are then dreaming of a dream. Which is really not far fetched.. You can think about thinking about a thought, can you not? It's all being encased by thinking, yes. However, you can go deeper then a singular thought. Just as with dreaming, you can go deeper then a singular dream. Your dream simply encases another dream (The second dream).

      Just as with reality, when we dream, reality is still in existence. With dreaming, once you dream about dreaming another dream within your initial dream, the initial dream is not lost. For if it was, your second dream would be lost as well, considering it was only going through that initial dream that enabled you to reach the second.

      Furthermore, I believe that had it not been for your opposition of this idea, I would not have not taken the time to map out what could be happening. Your note on cognitive-dissonance being an issue must have been a factor in the dream when not knowing what was going on/not believing it to be true. Thus, diminishing the lucidity. If you still oppose the concept, please, tell me why in detail. Because you were not wrong, but not entirely right as well. I've drawn up a little sketch to make it easier to comprehend the concept as well, if anyone, including yourself would like to see.

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      We seem to be in general agreement, Validus, but here are some thoughts about why I posted, and why it might still matter:

      Quote Originally Posted by Validus View Post
      In my opinion, I think your looking at this a little too literally, you're not allowing yourself to think of this in the correct fashion. Since one is dreaming while this is occurring, I think it's safe to say that there is really no limits as to what can happen, dreaming within your dream, being one of them. I'd like to add that what's happening is that one finds themself dreaming a dream, where they dream a dream within that dream. So, you are correct, yes, but also wrong.
      Based on your OP (more in a sec), I do not think I was being too literal.

      Yes, one can certainly have a dream wherein they imagine they are dreaming within their original dream... but they are imagining it; there is no process that I know of in which a DC can have a dream. So sure, one could certainly have a NLD where they dream they're waking up into another dream, or they could conjure one, or two, or more dreams within dreams if lucid. But whether it is done through non-lucid schema or lucid control, this dream-within-a-dream is still an illusion -- there is, in the end, only one dream. Now, that one dream can be incredibly complicated, or consist of Flowofmysoul's multiple schemata lying in cue, but it is still just one dream.

      To say, as you did in the OP, that you were "[sent] a dream deeper" tells me that you were saying that there was more than one dream process going on. This implies, I think, that the dream-within-a-dream was not an illusion for you, but a definite condition into which you were drawn. So, I guess I took your OP literally because you were using a literal definition of a dream-within-a-dream. My misunderstanding, I guess!

      You are right that this is only a single dream, and it really only can be that. However, Who's to say that within this dream, you cannot create a dream within it? You are then dreaming of a dream. Which is really not far fetched.. You can think about thinking about a thought, can you not? It's all being encased by thinking, yes. However, you can go deeper then a singular thought. Just as with dreaming, you can go deeper then a singular dream. Your dream simply encases another dream (The second dream).
      Agreed.

      But isn't this creation of another dream during your dream more of an intellectual pursuit? Isn't it something you are doing on purpose, rather than something that happens to you which must be dealt with? And as an intellectual pursuit you are creating this "deeper" dream with the full knowledge that you've done so, and also with the full knowledge that this deeper dream is a construct formed of the same stuff from which your "original" dream came, and not from something initiated by the dream body you just vacated. In other words, you are simply creating a new dream scene that conforms to your wishes -- it's an excellent exercise, but should it really be thought of as something other than just another process of your overall dream?

      Just as with reality, when we dream, reality is still in existence. With dreaming, once you dream about dreaming another dream within your initial dream, the initial dream is not lost. For if it was, your second dream would be lost as well, considering it was only going through that initial dream that enabled you to reach the second.
      I don't agree.

      If you lose that initial dream, you will still be in the second dream, without any need of the initial dream, and possibly any memory of it. This transition from dream schema to dream schema is fairly normal. To assume that erasure of the first dream means the second dream is gone too tells me that you do think that the first dream's "dreamer" had a hand in manufacturing the second dream. This is simply not true; DC's do not dream; your dreaming mind has no need to "go through" a previous dream in order to sustain the current production.

      So, no, you will not lose your second dream if the first goes away, because the source of both dreams is the same: you and your dreaming mind. The first dream holds no sway over the second dream, because it had no hand in generating it (the second dream) in the first place. If your dreaming mind (or your LD'ing self-awareness, for that matter) chooses to offer the illusion of some causal connection between the two dreams, and it certainly could, that connection would be an illusion. A meaningfully symbolic illusion, perhaps, but still an illusion. Your dreaming mind has direct input into all your various dream schemata -- there are no intermediaries.

      To sum all this up, I fully agree with you if you state that this dream-within-a-dream concept is just that: a concept, one that you inserted into your dream to enjoy or learn from the fascinating imagery a dream-within-a-dream schema might provide. But if you say that the second dream is dependent on the first, thus making it a part of the first, or if you say that this dream-within-a-dream is a real thing that happens to you, even when lucid, well, that is where I get to say I think you might be mistaken.

      I hope some of this made sense; I had to put it down very quickly.

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      Made perfect sense. Though I'd have to say I'd be lying if I said I didn't have any comments.

      there is, in the end, only one dream.
      As I stated in my previous post, You are entirely correct here. It IS only a single dream. However, this dream is simply encasing another. It really is the initial dream, if your looking at it in such a way, since it is holding the second within in it. I'd also have to say that it is partly my mistake on the wording, because it could have been easily mistaken the very way you did. But, In my defence, It is a literal dream within a dream. Considering that like I have previously said, Its a dream being hosted within a dream.

      isn't this creation of another dream during your dream more of an intellectual pursuit? Isn't it something you are doing on purpose, rather than something that happens to you which must be dealt with?
      No, It is not. I did not by any means make a conscious effort to induce such a thing. The first time it had happened, I was lying down in a bed. I soon drifted off to sleep where I found myself in a 'new' dream. In this dream, I had gained lucidity. I realised I was dreaming, and thought that the body I had just gone to sleep in, was my actual body in real life. It was only coming out of the second dream after my world faded away, I found myself non-lucid, and waking up in my initial dream, beginning my day in a routine fashion, as per usual.

      It was then recollecting what had happened once I had awoken into reality, that it struck me. I wasn't dreaming that initial dream any more, I had fallen asleep in it, due to the normality of it. This normality was so great that a subconscious factor must have triggered that upon sleep, one must dream. Disregarding the fact that I was already in a dream. So, The second dream came through NLDing, and the lucidity was only triggered through the entrance of the second dream.


      If you lose that initial dream, you will still be in the second dream, without any need of the initial dream, and possibly any memory of it.
      Possible, yeah. The way dreaming is, it would seem likely that if your initial dream were to be destroyed, the second would remain.. I mean, yeah, you would probably carry out your second dream as if it was the initial, forgetting about the actual initial dream. However, this may really come down to a psychological thing. If one were to subconsciously accept that they are only able to dream the second dream through the first, then they would most certainly have to keep that dream in existence to dream the second through it. (i.e what happened when I came out of the second dream, I did not wake up from it to find myself in reality, rather I awoke to find myself in my initial dream. This dream then had to be ended for me to wake up into reality.) So, in terms of what was just said, it would seem that If the first dream were to be lost, then that would mean destruction of the second, and you'd be back to a baseline singular dream. Where you'd then awake from, to find yourself in reality.

      Also a quick throw up of words by a fatigued mind, so notify if it's at all contradictory.

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      ^^ Okay, I believe we are in effective agreement here, and have a feeling we always were!

      Quote Originally Posted by Validus View Post
      As I stated in my previous post, You are entirely correct here. It IS only a single dream. However, this dream is simply encasing another. It really is the initial dream, if your looking at it in such a way, since it is holding the second within in it. I'd also have to say that it is partly my mistake on the wording, because it could have been easily mistaken the very way you did. But, In my defence, It is a literal dream within a dream. Considering that like I have previously said, Its a dream being hosted within a dream.
      Yes, now I get this. I would not draw the same diagrams as you do in describing all this, but your logic is sound, now that I've cleared my head of thinking you were talking about DC's creating separate dreams.

      No, It is not. I did not by any means make a conscious effort to induce such a thing. The first time it had happened, I was lying down in a bed. I soon drifted off to sleep where I found myself in a 'new' dream. In this dream, I had gained lucidity. I realized I was dreaming, and thought that the body I had just gone to sleep in, was my actual body in real life. It was only coming out of the second dream after my world faded away, I found myself non-lucid, and waking up in my initial dream, beginning my day in a routine fashion, as per usual.
      Understood; indeed, I think I may have said somewhere above that NLD's could certainly have the feeling of being a dream-within-a-dream, and in a NLD feeling equals reality. I managed to sidestep or misinterpret the part where you used that feeling (or rather a shift in "reality") to incite lucidity; if I had spotted it, we could have saved ourselves a lot of time!

      It was then recollecting what had happened once I had awoken into reality, that it struck me. I wasn't dreaming that initial dream any more, I had fallen asleep in it, due to the normality of it. This normality was so great that a subconscious factor must have triggered that upon sleep, one must dream. Disregarding the fact that I was already in a dream. So, The second dream came through NLDing, and the lucidity was only triggered through the entrance of the second dream.
      Though I still don't agree with this -- you can only feel like you are falling asleep during a dream/FA, you cannot actually do so, since you are already asleep -- but I think I get what you're saying now.


      Possible, yeah. The way dreaming is, it would seem likely that if your initial dream were to be destroyed, the second would remain.. I mean, yeah, you would probably carry out your second dream as if it was the initial, forgetting about the actual initial dream. However, this may really come down to a psychological thing. If one were to subconsciously accept that they are only able to dream the second dream through the first, then they would most certainly have to keep that dream in existence to dream the second through it. (i.e what happened when I came out of the second dream, I did not wake up from it to find myself in reality, rather I awoke to find myself in my initial dream. This dream then had to be ended for me to wake up into reality.) So, in terms of what was just said, it would seem that If the first dream were to be lost, then that would mean destruction of the second, and you'd be back to a baseline singular dream. Where you'd then awake from, to find yourself in reality.
      Agreed. But keep in mind that you are still the one creating these links and levels, be it consciously through the decisions and interpretations you make during the dream (LD or NLD), or unconsciously through expectation. Since this is a "psychological thing," you could just as easily or likely choose to let the original dream go completely, enjoy that second dream -- maybe even a third -- and finish up by waking up in reality, that first FA a distant, unimportant memory.

      In other words, whether aware of it or not, you are choosing the terms for the natrue and survival of the second dream. Since those terms are not hard-wired requirements, then, meaningful as they may seem at the time, they could just as easily be other terms (i.e., the first dream does not support the second).

      So I guess we're done here, but I must add that I probably would have put up that post even if I had fully understood your position, Validus. Even if I knew you had the noblest Inception-free intentions in your OP, I would have felt an urge to put up a cautionary post saying that DC's don't dream, so you cannot drop into deeper "levels" of dreams by having your DC body fall asleep during a dream. [And yes, before we start another loop, I do know that this feeling of "deeper levels" can happen non-lucidly, and can be created lucidly! ]


    21. #21
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      Agreed. But keep in mind that you are still the one creating these links and levels, be it consciously through the decisions and interpretations you make during the dream (LD or NLD), or unconsciously through expectation. Since this is a "psychological thing," you could just as easily or likely choose to let the original dream go completely, enjoy that second dream -- maybe even a third -- and finish up by waking up in reality, that first FA a distant, unimportant memory.

      In other words, whether aware of it or not, you are choosing the terms for the natrue and survival of the second dream. Since those terms are not hard-wired requirements, then, meaningful as they may seem at the time, they could just as easily be other terms (i.e., the first dream does not support the second).
      Yeah, I couldn't agree more with this, It's completely and entirely true. Also, It was never once opposed by me . I had only said that; if the dreamer chose so through some sort of a psychological determination, it would be quite hard for that determination to be diminished through actual 'dream logic' if you will. (Said in different words, of course)

      Moving forwards though, I'm glad we've come to terms. We must be quite similar in the sense that its quite hard to hinder our opinions, weather it be through inference or not.

      - Thanks for the discussion, though! It was entertaining to get the chance to go back and forth with another member over such a thing. As I've not had the chance to do so yet.


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