Thread: LD Training programs for PRISONERS

Intersainting... you can kill the person who put you in jail over and over agian in your dreams, and even practice breaking out if you wanted to But yes it would be easyier probaly if you see the same places over and over agian. And I don't think it would cost much money for someone just to go there and tell em bout lucid dreams, not sure how a whole training program thingy whould work though.

Originally posted by justme
youcan kill the person who put you in jail over and over agian in your dreams, and even practice breaking out if you wanted to

Haha! Or maybe just beat the sh*t out of some prison guard who always pisses you off.

I think its a good idea. But it would have to presented as a tool for rehabilitation which in the United States prison system is a joke(I see your from vanada, I don't know what the prisons are like there). When people think of prisons, they ten to invision murdurers and rapists when really the majority of inmates are in for non-violent crimes (drugs namely).

Hey, it could also be a good tool to turn that sodomy rate down, when you can be having sex in a vivid lucid dream. Not to mention the benefits of exploring ones own subconcious in the first place.

Again, good idea and welcome to dreamviews.

I don't know. I'd be skeptical on this idea mainly because of the fact that prison is for punishing wrong-doers. Why should we give criminals the opportunity to experience the same freedoms as an honest citizen? Sure they wouldn't be hurting anyone physically, but I don't believe that it would help them become better citizens.

Also, consider an imate who has a history of anger management issues. What if he just can't seem to get it. So he wakes up angry. As for drug users, it could just be enabling them as well.

I'm not saying it's an entirely bad idea, but I'm just skeptical, personally. I agree, too, that it's an interesting idea nonetheless.

-Amé

i thought the reason everyone learns LDing is because we are prisoners...

i'd support it. most people in jail shouldn't be there anyway..war on drugs

I think thats a great idea. Dreams can have a very theraputic potential, especially lucid dreams. I would imagine a trained instructor could guide the inmates dreams. For instance, have them go back to the crime and do it differently. To make the right choice. Maybe it could also be used as a cathartic outlet for their physical aggression. Personally, I think they should do away with the whole prison system. If someone did something really bad and needed to be locked up, so be it. But they should be isolated. By putting all the bad guys in one room you just contribute to the problem.

If more advanced lucid dreaming techniques emerge in the future, I would propose to use this as a basis for a whole new field in therapy. I figure even the worst of criminals could be rehabilitated in 5-10 years maximum with more holistic treatment. Prison should not be looked at as punishment. Prison exists for the safety of the greater society. Wouldn't it make the whole world safer if we actually helped these people instead of banding them all together to rot?

// cybereality

Originally posted by Amethyst Star
I'd be skeptical on this idea mainly because of the fact that prison is for punishing wrong-doers.

you see, I don't toally agree with on that. To me, the main purpose of a prison is to rehabilitate people who made wrong choices in their life back to society, And not just punishing them (unless you're some kinda crazy psychopath...).

Originally posted by Amethyst Star
As for drug users, it could just be enabling them as well.

Drug users should not be in prison in the first place.

Drug users should not be in prison in the first place. [/b]

Maybe not drug users, but certainly drug pushers and trafficers - the fact that there's a thin line between the two is just their bad luck.

It could be both very therapeutic and benefitial for prisoners to learn more about LDs, and explore the power of their imagination to escape a dull and oppressive reality. [/b]

Or learn new and more efficient ways of acting out criminal behavior and avoiding capture. Lets not forget how lucid dreaming is great for problem solving and practice - a power that can be used for good AND evil. However I think LDing is really a basic human right and everyone deserves the opportunity to learn it IF they so choose to.

I think LD Training program would have better results for them, comparing to the average population, because it would be easy to train someone who sees the same places over and over again (The cell, the gym, the cafeteria) to recognize any other external place as a DREAMSIGN. [/b]

Yup, I agree in your reasoning for this -- keep in mind, however, that many of us out there already live in a "controlled environment" of somekind. I spend approx. 8 hours a day at my job - same office, same surroundings, same co-workers, etc. Sometimes it feels like a prison itself! Yet, I rarely (and strangely enough) find myself dreaming about it at all. Maybe it's because I'm exposed to it so much in waking life, that my mind uses dreams to take me AWAY from this familiar setting. If this is the case, inmantes would be dreaming about far away lands and open areas with no concrete or metal bars.... where they could rape and pilage as they please...maybe?

Originally posted by Tornado Joe
keep in mind, however, that many of us out there already live in a "controlled environment" of somekind.

However, even if life's endless routine can seem like a prison to some people, we utlimatly have the freedom and choice to do whatever we want (i.e. quit job and fly to Hawai 8) ).

And as far as i know, people don't voluntarily check in prisons to do some jail time..

Originally posted by Tornado Joe
Maybe not drug users, but certainly drug pushers and trafficers

No. Education should be corrected and drugs should be legalised.

Originally posted by MartinB

No. *Education should be corrected and drugs should be legalised.

Don't forget prostitution.

Originally posted by Unicorn+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Unicorn)</div>

However, even if life's endless routine can seem like a prison to some people, we utlimatly have the freedom and choice to do whatever we want (i.e. quit job and fly to Hawai *). [/b]

Heh, ah that's cute. I was going to respond but then noticed you're a student. So, really there's no point. You'll know why I didn't when out here among the rat race.

<!--QuoteBegin-MartinB
No. Education should be corrected and drugs should be legalised.

Wooh, could it be, and English hippy? Nah. I might have agreed with you about a couple decades ago - but really, there's been plenty of dead celebrities, teen drug related deaths/suicides, world events, and public service announcements that it's hard to imagine anyone out there that is not "educated" enough to know drugs (taken irresponsibly) are bad! (note to potheads: not necessarily including cannabis ). Which part of "just say no" do people not get?
Don't get me wrong, Martin, I'm not the anti-everything type. Shit, if they ever thought of making alchohol illegal again I'd raise hell. I've never really taken drugs so maybe I'd think differently about this if I had - but some of them drugs out there just CAN'T be taken responsibly and shouldn't be available.

Originally posted by Moment
Don't forget prostitution.

Well, hopefully that's in the works

Not a good idea in my opinion. First of all we pay our taxes to keep people locked up for a punishment, not so they can have sweet dreams. If it were my way I'd let them have sleepless nights 365 days a year if you catch my drift. They could act out their sick fantasys in their ld's and become "better" at not getting caught.

Originally posted by InTheMoment+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(InTheMoment)</div>

Don't forget prostitution.[/b]

Yes, I agree. Like drug use, prostitution is another victimless crime. Actually, prostitution is already legal where I live, but it still has a bad reputation amongst most people who are not educated on it because the media only ever portrays a particularly negative stereotype of it.

Trust me, I know it's nothing like what most people seem to think.


<!--QuoteBegin-Tornado Joe
there's been plenty of dead celebrities, teen drug related deaths/suicides, world events, and public service announcements that it's hard to imagine anyone out there that is not "educated" enough to know drugs (taken irresponsibly) are bad!

That's not education. That's propoganda bullshit. The media, government and schools only report negative incidents involving drugs. The truth is that many drugs, such as marijuana, magic mushrooms and LSD are extremely safe when used responsibly. When are we taught this? When are we taught that many illegal drugs actually have potentials for many practical purposes? Like how LSD was used successfully to cure alcohol addiction, how MDMA (Ecstasy) was used successfully in psychotherapy and how marijuana has many medical uses such as pain relief and can be useful in creative work? How about all the people (myself included) who have experienced positive change in their lives thanks to magic mushrooms or other psychodelics? No, of course education is about provided a totally one-sided view and everyone who thinks differently is a junkie or is delusional.

I should also point out that many stories are skewed so as to blame a drug. For example, a celebrity who's name I forget, reportadly jumping out of 6th story window due to an "LSD flashback" turned out to be bullshit. Likewise, last week I read about a teenager who happened to use Salvia committed suicide (he was not under the influence of Salvia at the time), and naturally the parents blame Salvia because it's easier than admitting that they were somehow neglecting or ignoring a deeper issue in their son, such as depression.

I don't think you realise how much bullshit some people will make up regarding drugs. Ever heard of LSD tattoos? A guy thinking he is a glass of orange juice after taking LSD? Famous stories taught frequently in schools all over the world that never actually happened.

Originally posted by Tornado Joe
Which part of "just say no" do people not get?

How about the part that asks: "Why?". People are not that stupid. Tell us why we should "Just say no"? Because the government told us to? That's not good enough I'm afraid. I want hard facts. "Because drugs are bad" or "Some irresponsible depressed kid decided to get fuxxored up and jump off a bridge" isn't going to cut it here.

but some of them drugs out there just CAN'T be taken responsibly and shouldn't be available.[/b]

I agree that some drugs have negative consequences and probably should not be used, but if proper education was provided in the first place, drugs would not need to be illegal because people would understand why them and would be able to make a meaningful and informed choice not to use them.

Bullshitting people about drugs is the reason that young people try them, especially soft drugs (marijuana, mushrooms, etc.), and when they see others using them and realise that "Hey, marijuana didn't make him stupid" or "Hey, mushrooms didn't make her think she could fly", they might just start to think "Hey, if they lied to me about marijuana, I wonder what other drugs they lied to me about?". As you can tell, this creates a dangerous situation.

Originally posted by Tornado Joe

Don't get me wrong, Martin, I'm not the anti-everything type. Shit, if they ever thought of making alchohol illegal again I'd raise hell. I've never really taken drugs so maybe I'd think differently about this if I had - but some of them drugs out there just CAN'T be taken responsibly and shouldn't be available.

Hmm, if prohibition doesn't work for some drugs, why would it work for others? No matter what the government implies, alcohol, tobacco and OTC medicines are drugs, just as much as any illegal substance. The fact is that the substances themselves don't cause nearly as much harm to our society as the black market does. I mean, think of it this way: A teenager is curious about a certain substance, and instead of being able to purchase it safely and legally through a market, he has to deal with the wrong people, which leads down other unsafe paths. Wouldn't it be a lot better if all he had to do is go to the market? But then he can buy his drugs without being incriminated, and now has no use in society, you say? If he were to become so addicted to any drug that he'd sell his own body, he would be able to do that legally, as well. All of these things just fuel our economy; we can tax drugs and prostitution. Omitting the black market from the United States would be an immense improvement on our overall crime rates, economy, and standard of living. Instead of the lower class being incriminated, they could be helped, and shown how to rise.

Basically, I'm just against the government exploiting the lower class.

With the prisoners and lucid dreaming, I think it's a great idea. At least it's a step ahead.

Originally posted by odds
Basically, I'm just against the government exploiting the lower class.

Amen to that! i'd rather help out junkies and bums than give LDs programs to some big corporate whores who went to jail because they conned hundreds of thousands!

Dreams are the only way to reestablish social justice. it's really sad

Cool. Now prisoners can keep on raping while in jail

But in the long run, I think LDing could be good for people in prisons. For anyone for that matter.

The truth is that many drugs, such as marijuana, magic mushrooms and LSD are extremely safe when used responsibly[/b]

Yah, but we're not talking about people using these drugs responsibly, are we? You can tell anyone all you want about a drug and it's effects on them if they take it, prohibit it's usage and you STILL get dumbasses out there who abuse it and end up ruining their lives (and even worse - other's lives). Now you're proposing to make the shit available at any convenient store?

We're obviously not gonna agree on this, and that's ok. We're quite a bit off the original topic anyway - but I think my main point comes down to this: Sure, you can educate kids on the "truths" about drugs, but it won't make them wiser. You can legalize it, taking out the "black market", but making it so easily available will increase the amount of users > addicts > junkies > crime. All in my opinion of course.

In closing: I got no problem if people want to snort, smoke, shoot up (or themselves!) - just keep it to yourself and stay outta my yard

So you are saying that drugs should be illegal for the majority simply because a very small minority abuses them? Interesting that you mentioned alcohol as a drug that you would fight for you right to use, since it is more dangerous and causes far more deaths and injuries than many illegal drugs, including marijuana, magic mushrooms and LSD combined.

Firstly, legal drugs are less widely used than illegal drugs. Marijuana and magic mushrooms are less widely used in The Netherlands than they are in the United States and most other countries where these are illegal.

Secondly, what is it about this underlying presumption with regards to the method of legalisation of drugs? Who said anything about making drugs available in convenience stores? Marijuana in the Netherlands is not available in convenience stores and neither are magic mushrooms. You have to go to a coffeeshop to buy marijuana, or a smart shop for magic mushrooms as well as other legal drugs (Salvia Divinorum, Peyote, etc.) with the exception of alcahol and tobacco, and in my experience, the dealers are almost always very experienced with what they are selling and offer very good advice and are some of the most honest people I've met.

Finally, if someone is going to be stupid enough to become addicted to something like crack or heroin (addiction is not possible with most psychodelics, since they are anti-addictive), then they are going to do it regardless of whether it is illegal or not. If it is legal, then harm is minimised.

Interesting that you mentioned alcohol as a drug that you would fight for you right to use, since it is more dangerous and causes far more deaths and injuries than many illegal drugs, including marijuana, magic mushrooms and LSD combined. [/b]

Exactly! Alchohol (a legal substance) is responsible for more deaths than "many illegal drugs, including marijuana, magic mushrooms and LSD combined"! - thanks for making my point.

Is twisting my words the best you can do?

Allow me to put this in perspective. The number of deaths attributed to the use of marijuana, magic mushrooms and LSD is absolutely tiny. We're talking similar numbers to the number of deaths resulting from choking on peanuts (actually, probably lower than that... oh wait, I just proved that peanuts are dangerous, let's outlaw those too!). The number of deaths resulting from alcohol is absolutely huge.

You cannot overdose on marijuana or mushrooms, and probably not LSD either. These are safe drugs. Alcohol is not.

Not only is that a reason in itself for the legalisation of drugs, but if people can choose safe drugs (marijuana, mushrooms) over unsafe ones (alcohol), their would be less deaths as a result.

Tornado Joe, watch this video. You might learn something.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=42...penn+and+teller

The drug war is a good issue, but seriously this is a cool thread in itself- how about we get back on topic