Thought on lucid dreaming...

[alfy984]

What is the purpose of dreaming? Its probably a question that has perplexed many a mind, including mine. I just want to throw out an idea i have and see what everyone thinks. I believe that human kind is on the brink( not sure how long a brink is) of a new evolution, but in order to cross the line people need to be prepared. What if dreaming is a way to prepare us for the new evolution, to prepare us for a time when we can actually manifest our greatest desires at will. We are already seeing the law of attraction at work, but its not instant manifestations at all. If we could manifest instantly now i think most people would be manifesting ak47s or nukes, thats why its only an exercise in our minds. WHen the better part of humanity is prepared for this jump then we can move into the next evolution and manifest the things that make us at harmony with the universe, such as freedom, equality and justice etc. and do away with the negative things. Just think about what evolution is, It is something that takes the information that we get thoughout our lives and it uses that information to make things better. I believe that what happens in a dream is real information, If we can learn to manifest our desires in a dream then why wouldnt evolution take that into account and put into this reality we all share. It hasnt happend yet because people are scared. When the time is right i believe this will happen. So keep dreaming and eventually it will have an effect on our reality.

[FluBB]

well as far as im concerned not everyone wants those things you talked about, like justice and stuff. maybe deep down they do, but theres so many greedy self centered people out there, and it would take a very long time for anything to get rid of that. but scientists do think that dreams are meant to prepare us for what might happen, this does not necessarily mean that we are preparing to evolve but i spose thats possible...

[Umbrella]

An extremely interesting thought. I do see some things that seem not to fit in though. Dreaming, for example, is caused by REM-sleep, which is a phase of sleep that we need to survive, and therefore, that's been available to us since we evolved into mammals. It would make no sense if this test had been going on for that long already, especially seeing as we had dreams when we were still prehistoric cavemen. Then there's the fact that there's a pretty good explanation for the existance of dreams. For example, it's believed that dreams function as a "life simulator", mainly for babies and small children, as they have been found to have much more REM-sleep per night than older children and adults. This is actually quite a lot like what you are suggesting, only to a different end, namely to prepare babies for some of the things in their lives, and not to prepare humanity for a new evolution. Also dreams don't really need to have a deeper purpose per se, as they are first and foremost a result of REM-sleep, which as a state, is necessary to keep us alive. Still, these things I'm saying here are technically just theories as well and do not disprove your theory. I really like the thought, anyway, and it's important to know that nothing's ever certain. And now: a smiley I've never seen anyone use before

[Xei]

To be honest, I don't really have much of an idea what you're talking about. What we see in dreams isn't 'Information', preparing us for evolution (whatever that means; you cited the definition of evolution as 'something that takes the information that we get thoughout our lives and it uses that information to make things better', which doesn't have much at all to do with evolving). The most information I've ever gotten out of a dream is that giant marsupials have a good sense of rythm and not to trust any barmen made of soap. Sorry for being so harsh, but it just doesn't make much sense. The reason for dreams can be a very interesting thing to think about, so long as you don't start mangling strange conspiracies up with your thought processes. As far as scientists have gotten so far, it would seem that at this time, the brain is sorting through all of the information you've obtained in that day, and discarding the useless stuff. Why the brain also projects a fully formed scene..? I suppose it'll be something to do with making any memories from that day less unbelievable, so that the body doesn't wake up. That's not a very adequate explanation, but I suppose only time will bridge the gap.

[Distant Clone]

Why did you include "lucid" in the topic, but not mention it at all in the post? I do think the purpose of dreams are evolutionary, but not for the upcoming shift in consciousness, supposedly. Like I have maintained, dreams are stories that put you in situations which exemplify one's weaknesses or strong points. From that, one should learn what behaviors to keep with them, and which ones to overcome. I have been having a whole bucket of repeated dreams in the last week, and that really backs up my point. Obviously, we don't always get it on the first time. For example, I had a dream which starts with "5 days of studying in a library". That ended with my brother leaving our table a mess, crumbs all over the place. I am left to clean it off while four people sit down. In the process, one of those four spills two different drinks on my pants. The dream ends with me outside a restaurant. My parents went inside leaving my brother and I out there. They were upsetting me earlier in the dream in a hotel room, and I also missed lunch since my class ran late. Along comes another fellow, as if he is meeting someone there. He pulls around a bench, then sits down. He goes off looking for a foot rest, he only found a coffee maker. I had two under my bench. The first time the dream happened, I blew up on the person who spilled soda on me, and did not let the person have the foot rest just because I was angry. The second time the dream happened, I just said "Oh man, my pants are getting owned" and smiled it off. Then, a female librarian comes up to me. She tells how much good I do, and how my presence makes so many others happy. In the background there were girls smiling, with inspiration, at my good deeds. Then she gave me hug, since in the dream I could tell it was my last day of college. Also, I gave the better of the two footrests to the fellow sitting on the bench.

[wombing]

you refer to an "evolution" far different from the scientific theory of the same name. yours is guided by some strange principle which desires to animate the universe with justice, freedom, and equality, and do away with the "negatives"...even though duality is the framework through which we have identity as living, sentient beings temporarily staving off a universe seemingly leaning towards chaos. "unguided" evolution allows the fittest to survive and reproduce. it seems those who pay little attention to their dreams can have babies the same as anyone else. ------ i agree with you though in that i believe humanity is on the verge of a cultural evolution, in which we manifest the conditions most conducive to achieving harmony with the earth...though what harmony with the universe means i am not quite sure. interesting thoughts, thanks for sharing

[fajam00m00]

Yo alf. Well, I'm sorry to say that even though I like your idea, I do not agree with it. I believe that: 1) Evolution is the change in species via mutation to allow for continued existence, and to deal with species, circumstances, climate, etc. 2) Dreams are just event sequences produced by our brain so that it can unwind and allow the subcontious to evaluate events, etc. Over and out. 8)

[inthenameofartbell]

What I think about the first post of this thread is that it assumes that Tim Leary was right, about the eastern myststicism guys being right, about the human body and ego being separate from the human awareness, which is passed on into a "different world," upon death. In the Tibetan Book Of The Dead, the ego is undergoes trials after death, and according to its level of preparation, is transformed, the highest transformation is reserved for the most well prepared (the least of egos). I am not sure about this, since I have never died and remembered the experience. I am sure, however, that gaining control of your subconscious mind is a good idea, and that is part of what practicing LD is all about.

[hollywoodbound]

Human beings aren't the only mammals that dream... It cannot simply be a gateway to HUMAN evolution. You do pose a good question though. Why do we dream? I mean, scientifcally most of the natural responses we have to things, as well as our bodily functions (homeostasis etc.) all make sense. But even on just a Survival Only level, what is the medical reason people sleep?

[Distant Clone]

(In response to hollywoodbound) 1. Have you seen someone that does not sleep? How they are slow to react, unable to think, have difficulty motoring (moving)? Not exactly a winning strategy for survival. While we sleep, I think we go into a state of healing. Of course, there are meditative states which are more efficient than sleep, which can actually be used as a substitute for sleep. Interesting experience I had just a couple of days ago, actually. The entire night I was only asleep for about three hours. The rest of the time I was in more of a meditative state. When I was asleep, I would dream. Immediately after the end of the dream, I would wake up. I ended up recalling 9 dreams that night, which is an absolute record. Not only that, but seven of the nine dreams were repeats (three had some lucid parts). Someone fit that into their theory. 2. It looks like you either stop short, or simply incinuated something. You say that all mammals dream, so it can't be just human evolution. All mammals have evolved, and all mammals dream too, perhaps there is a correlation there. In fact, I will throw out some food for thought. I want to argue that dreams cause evolution. There is that saying that "dreams do come true". What if, dolphins dreamed of coming upon land for many years before turning into dogs? What if *insert mammal* dreamed of *insert evolved feature* long before it happened? They say, when there is a will, there is a way. I propose that dreams express our subconscious' will and that our fantasies express our conscious will. Depending on the intensity of that will, the quicker our will materializes. Changes like primates learning to stand, took a long time, and it was a significant change, probably thousands of years. Of course, if someone wants, a job for example, it usually takes six to twelve months to find one, well a good job. If you want to work at a fast food restaurant, it could be as soon as a couple of days.

[alfy984]

I guess i should have titled it "Thought about evolution and dreaming and lucid dreaming" When i say dreaming is real information i mean its still the exact same information processed by our brainin waking life, just a different source. I have come to this conclusion because LDs are so damn real that they have to be real. Like say the brain is a TV, the TV doesnt know the difference between the input from a DVD player or cable it just plays it no matter what. But then you might say "but I know the difference between dream reality and waking reality". Yes true but you are not your brain you are the observer in these realities... I do agree with fajam that evolution is the change in species via mutation to allow for continued existence, and to deal with species, circumstances, climate, etc., but then you have to ask where the information comes from. Are our brains taking the information we process and wirelessly sending it to some super brain or something? What decided to give us imposeble thumbs and whatnot. If our brains dont know the difference between waking and dreaming perceptions then its all the same information getting sent to evolve us. So our dreams can have an effect on our evolution. All in all i just wanted to point that evolution has to be a process that we directly affect and if so then we can change things. So i guess dreams arent necessarily preparing us, but more giving us a glimpse of what is to come if we choose it.

[Xei]

Originally posted by Distant Clone In fact, I will throw out some food for thought. I want to argue that dreams cause evolution. There is that saying that "dreams do come true". What if, dolphins dreamed of coming upon land for many years before turning into dogs? What if *insert mammal* dreamed of *insert evolved feature* long before it happened? They say, when there is a will, there is a way. Sorry, but that's just silly. Evolution is a process of survival of the fittest. There are slight mutations in each next generation. If this mutation is beneficial for the animal, then it will survive for long enough to breed, and its DNA will be passed on. I think some people haven't quite grasped this concept. That's why you're posting such rhetorical questions as 'why did we suddenly decide to have two legs', and answering them with illogical answers such as 'we wanted it so much that it came true, because information is being sent from our brains to some kind of subconcious function which alters our offspring, and these desires are often manifested in dreams'.

[scruffty]

since eeeeearly man has had the ability to see angels and the ladder between heaven and earth in his subconscious

[alfy984]

Originally posted by Xei Evolution is a process of survival of the fittest. There are slight mutations in each next generation. If this mutation is beneficial for the animal, then it will survive for long enough to breed, and its DNA will be passed on. I think some people haven't quite grasped this concept. That's why you're posting such rhetorical questions as 'why did we suddenly decide to have two legs', and answering them with illogical answers such as 'we wanted it so much that it came true, because information is being sent from our brains to some kind of subconcious function which alters our offspring, and these desires are often manifested in dreams'. So what are you saying? nothing you quoted was actually a quote from any posts... Yes evolution is a process of survival of the fittest, but its also much more than that. There has to be some underlying causes. Mutations just dont decide to manifest themselves.

[Distant Clone]

Originally posted by Xei Sorry, but that's just silly. Evolution is a process of survival of the fittest. Hold on chief. While I do support everyone's ability to have their own beliefs, they should remain just that. I was able to carefully quantify my beliefs, you should really do the same. Further, survival of the fittest is Darwin's belief, albeit widely accepted; it's his theory of evolution. Evolution took place over thousands of years, Darwin could not have tested this scientifically. On the other hand, many scientists have studied consciousness. Plenty have obtained results that show mental thought processes can influence certain events. I believe that is an axiomatic principle of how the universe works. You are simply throwing it out for no reason because you think it's not possible. Rather interesting considering you are only willing to back that without evidence, and deny what does have support. I think you are what is silly.

[italianmonkey]

Originally posted by fajam00m00 Yo alf. Well, I'm sorry to say that even though I like your idea, I do not agree with it. I believe that: 1) Evolution is the change in species via mutation to allow for continued existence, and to deal with species, circumstances, climate, etc. 2) Dreams are just event sequences produced by our brain so that it can unwind and allow the subcontious to evaluate events, etc. Over and out. 8) i perfectly agree with fajam. i suppose alfy saw "sfera" (dunno the title in english, maybe it's just sphere or something like this) - nice sci-fi movie from nice sci-fi book... don't hope this. your life will never start working like a LD, nor will your grand-grand-grandchildren's or so on. come to terms with this, and you'll feel better. fullstop.

[FluBB]

Originally posted by alfy984 I guess i should have titled it " I do agree with fajam that evolution is the change in species via mutation to allow for continued existence, and to deal with species, circumstances, climate, etc., but then you have to ask where the information comes from. Are our brains taking the information we process and wirelessly sending it to some super brain or something? What decided to give us imposeble thumbs and whatnot. . well in my opinion its called god, but to each his own.

[inthenameofartbell]

about evolution: I think its been said already that the precept here is that some species die and others live in order to pass on their genes. I think we also generally agree that dreaming is mostly the activity of the normally subconscious mind, and lucid dreaming makes our conscious mind more aware of this process. The question would then be: Does an understanding of the subconscious mind play a role in survival? Well it could. Ever have a life saving intuition? Intuition, like dreaming, is something the subconscious mind provides for our conscious mind to work with. Intuition does lots of things, for example, helps you understand strangers faster. So in my scenario being more competant with your subconscious helps you pass your genes on.

[alfy984]

Originally posted by italianmonkey i perfectly agree with fajam. i suppose alfy saw "sfera" (dunno the title in english, maybe it's just sphere or something like this) - nice sci-fi movie from nice sci-fi book... don't hope this. your life will never start working like a LD, nor will your grand-grand-grandchildren's or so on. come to terms with this, and you'll feel better. fullstop. never in my lifetime... but in my future lifetimes i believe things will be different coming to terms with what you say makes me feel worse... If i cant look forward to a new evolution of humankind then whats the point of being a part of this evolution... why would we be such a vital part of it if we never get to experience it? and to comment on flubb i would say its god too, but in my opinion god is just a metaphor for the unknown or the infinite mystery in the universe, but like you said to each his own