Thread: Can you do anything in LD? What about morality?

Originally posted by Seeker


All you guys reading this, I know you've had thoughts of raping someone at some time, most likely because of how the woman has treated you. Does raping in a lucid dream provide an outlet for your anger or does it erode you resolve never to commit a rape?

I tried to stay out of this 1 but i was most surprised by that 1 and uneasy. I can't believe ud say somthing like. When i come to the idea of rape my mind just forcialbly goes blank. I can say iv never mind settled on the idea of rapeing any one. Its so distrubing i don't see how one can even imagine doing that to some 1 else. But for one to even consider the idea is...well it gives negative vibes?

I had problems with just having sex in general with lucid charecters. But weve already taken are stances on those havn't we ^_^. Back when i was first Ld'ing id ask a dream charecter if they wanted to have sex, and if they said yeh, then well....why not. *rubs back of head* But due to stupid seeker ,I don't think i can even do that anymore at least not on any sort of consciouse level.

Iv had my share scary dreams, but iv also had one where i was raped (by a male). Thats a different kind of scary, let me u lol. The idea of being violated, and so many more thought i wont even go on to explain.

The people that don't consider the feelings of others, even dream charecters. Make me sad : (

they're constructs of your mind, they don't exist. all they are is nerve ending firing off creating an illusion of you seeing a person, they exist on no level other than that of the imagination, and they cease to exist when you wake up. but most of all, they aren't carriers of consciousness, you have to on some level tell them what to do before they can do it, hurting them is merely imagining hurting a person that will die the second you forget about him whether you hurt him or if you don't. it has no consequences other than those that you put upon it. (and those apply only to yourself)

think about that next time your worried about hurting a dream characters feelings

yeah but when it comes to rape, even though dreams are supposed to be free and everything, it just seems wrong, because if some people like it, it may give some people thoughts about doing it in real life, but in retrospect, as i said in my previous post as long as these thoughts stay in the dream world then its OK...even though your conscience may eat at you for doing such a thing, even in your dream, but the fact still remains that it never happened, so before you can make a decision you must ask yourself, did things in you dream actually happen, or dont they count... because when it comes to shared dreams, dreams are no longer private, so if you do something to someone in a shared dream which they remember then very complex issues could occur...

shared dreaming and dreaming being on other planes of existence are whole other areas of discussion completely.

if you were sharing the dream with other consciousnesses then yes, you would have to be totally moral just like real life or else it would be the same as doing it in real life

Folks, I guess all of this is just an artifact of my faith. Whatever happened to "Whoever looks upon a woman with lust commits adultary in his heart"?

My concience will not allow me to do anything in a lucid dream that I will not do in waking life. Lucid dreaming is the ultimate litmus test to determine your motivation.

Look inside, do you refrain from doing something in waking life because you know it is wrong or because you are afraid of the consequences?

Lucid dreaming is the ultimate consequence free environment in which to determine this.

Shawndow, I seem to remember the last time I was arguing this point, wasn't it you that told me I had ruined it for you? I cannot remember for sure, it's been at least two years ago.

Originally posted by BillyBob_001
morality has absolutely no grounding in dreams.

You constantly say this on the grounds that the dream character is nothing, illusionary, imaginary, fictional. I say morality does matter. But it has NOTHING to do with the dream characters. They aren't 'real people'. But morality doesn't disappear in the dreaming.

I am not saying you would actually commit that crime in real life if you like to commit it in a dream. But I am saying, if you are trully morally against something, you will feel GUILT. No guilt of any kind, not now or later, then not against it.

Imagine a homophobic man, completely and utterly against homosexuality. Is he not a hypocrite if he dreams about analing a man in a dream? And enjoys it?

Will he have sex with a man in real life now? Thats not the point. Is having sex with the dream character the issue? The dream character is not a real person, so thats not point either. So how can it be hypocritical for a antihomosexual male to dream about having sex with a male DC, if the DC isn't even real?

Does a homosexual have to have sex to know hes gay? No

Then it is hypocritical, and against his morality. He ENJOYED the dream experience. Then he WILL enjoy the real thing.

Can a vegan go to Mc Donalds in a dream, and order the fattest beef burger with tripple cheese, and enjoy it without regret?? Eat from a DREAM fast food industry?? Its not like the Mc Donalds was real or the tripple cheesburger, so why does it matter?

Is not having fun sex in a dream a good SUBSTITUTE for the real thing when you need it???? Then the vegan is being hypocritical to their own point of views and what they would concider an immoral pleasure.

Can a devout christian dream about worshipping Satan/Lucifer as their Lord, praising him as God? And wake up being happy about it????? No, not if they are a devout christian.

So then.....it is NOT possible to dream about something you truly are MORALLY against, without feeling some guilt or regret. Then if a person dreams about raping, a NORMAL rape scene like the one I posted, and if they feel no guilt, no remorse, but instead enjoy it - - - Then they are not TRULY against raping.

*Rape is much more than jumping on top of a person and humping them*


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Ok. I hear you screaming!! "BUT I KILL PEOPLE IN MY DREAMS!! I BLOW UP PEOLE IN MY DREAMS! BUT I WOULDNT KILL IN REAL LIFE".

Maybe you took a knife in a dream and gutted someone open, watched their intestines fall. Maybe you had some oversized gun and blew off a couple of heads. Or maybe you went primal and starting eating people alive. So according to what I said above......or you.....against....Killing humans??

NOOO YOU ARE NOT

I don't mean to burst the bubble, but only the most saintly of human beings are truly against killing.

You must be against drunk driving, capital punishment, you must be against the right to bear arms. You must be against cops bearing guns. You must be against SELF DEFENSE if it means to kill. You must be against DEFENDING a loved one if you have to kill. Against abortion. You must be against any and all weapons a nation holds. You must be against the right for a nation to have soldiers or an army. You must be against any killing that happens in war, from either side, for whatever the reason. You must even be against killing Hitler *if we could*..........And you must be against killing as entertainment - even video games.

Most of us..are not against all of the above. In war, there is no good or evil side. There is only your side and the enemys side. And in war, you kill the enemy. War is been apart of humanity since we first walked the earth. "Killing the enemy" is in our subconsious as much as being a "hunterer" and "gatherer" is. Killing is deeply rooted in the human nature.

What about video games and violent movies? Video games and violent movies MAY not affect us subconsciously. But it does already show that on a subconscious level we are ALREADY NOT AGAINST KILLING. Its a sport, a game, hunting. And all of my male cousins who played violent video games all day long and thought it was the most coolest thing in the world to do, are in the army right now, in Iraq with their own guns and weapons that kill.

Being morally against killing for the most part simply means...you HOPE you never have to do it.

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So why am I so iffy about dreaming about raping above all other things?

Show me a situation where raping is OK, and I will tell you its OK to dream about it. And since there is no situation, I will remain firm. And if you...ENJOY...raping in a dream. Then you WILL enjoy it in real life.

And if you really are, truthfully against something, like raping..but know you can ENJOY raping. Can that ever be an even bigger problem for yourself!

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morality has absolutely no grounding in dreams. [/b]

you see lucid dreams and dreams are a gateway to your deepest desires, within them you can do anything you've ever wanted to do but absolutely wouldn't in real life[/b]

so what I'm saying is that its only wrong to do bad deeds in dreams if..[/b]

billybob, youre funny!

you mentioned scenario 1. where a man dreams about raping, just once to see what its like, to see if he enjoys it.
and you mentioned scenario 2. where a man wants to rape but can't, so he dreams about it. but dreams aren't enough so he goes out and rapes anyways

but you didn't mention scenario 3. And scenario 3 is scenario 1, if the man enjoys it and felt no regret, no disgust, no guilt. So scenario 1 keeps dreaming about it. And again......and again......and again....and again.....and again....and again...do you see where I am going with this?

Morality in dreams? Big topic. Okay, my thoughts:

Dreams all happen inside our own head. They're just like conscious thoughts and fantasies and daydreams, except that we don't have as much control over them. Even in lucids, where, though we may control our own actions, and to a limited extent (which varies) the world around us in our dreams. But, the world itself, is a projection of our minds, our subconscious.

Now, I don't believe in morality in the objective sense. I, myself, have strong subjective morals, on a lot of issues. So, I think there are two questions here to be answered.

What reason is there to let our own subjective moral values affect our actions within dreams, considering that our actions within dreams do not have any affect on anyone other than ourselves?

Why should we let society's moral judgements to impact upon what we do in our dreams, considering that, as outside society cannot see into our dreams, what we do in our dreams has no connection whatsoever to society?

My answer to both qestions, is, that there is no reason to act in accordance with morality in our dreams. Either our own moral codes, OR society's. Rather, dreams are a playground for our subconscious desires.

HOWEVER.

What you do in a dream, lucid or otherwise, can tell you a good deal about yourself. If you rape, murder, etc, in your dream... what does that say about you, and your subconscious? I'm no saint. But, for the most part, I find that my dreams are places in which I do not try to hurt anyone else, and in which I have a positive relationship to most dream characters. I think, for me, that's a good sign.

I think the lesson to be learnt, is that moral codes act a lot as chains on the human mind, suppressing the deeper, subconscious urges. In a dream, those chains can, potentially disappear. For some people, the urges let loose are ones that... well... are dark. For others, they are mostly good and harmless.

Should you let your moral codes constrain your actions in a dream? No. If you want to rape a dream character, there is no logical reason why moral codes should stop you. But, I think you should step back, and take a long, hard and critical look at why, in the first place, you have that DESIRE to rape or hurt others, that morality usually suppresses.

Even in the most vivid LDs, your sense of reality is skewed. I have done some things I would never do in real life while in dreams, even in LDs.

I once had an LD where I was just going around killing people. It wasn't graphic or anything, more like a video game, yet in the dream, despite me being lucid, it was logical and made sense. Things seemed different, as if my mind was trapped in a single strain of thought. I didn't actually realize that what I was doing was wrong. Still, I woke up feeling absolutely terrible, in the middle of the night, with an extreme sense of forboding evil.

When you're in a dream, your moral codes are, for the most part, forgotten. Even if you wake and feel absolutely awful about something, in a dream, nothing seems exactly real, including your feelings. Strong feelings and actions can happen in a dream that don't make sense at all and have no real relation to our waking life. It all simply seems harmless, many times.

A single thought or quick memory can become your life in a dream. No matter how you feel about it in waking life, it will seem okay in your dream, sometimes even if you're lucid.

This is something I think about quite often. I adhere to my morals whenever I am concious, and usually when I am not. ( I say usually because I can't think of a situation when I did something bad while not lucid, but I don't remember all of my dreams, so it is possible.) I think it is because, they are actually MY morals. My morals do not come from real life social consequences. Unfortunately, many people's morals do. So I agree, that if you truly enjoy doing something awful in a dream and feel no regret when reflecting on the experience after waking up, then you aren't morally against it. You just are too afraid of the real life consequences to actually do it.

I do beleive that not all dreaming occurs inside your head and that you may not be able to tell if you are interacting with DCs or actual concious entities. No, I can't pull any scientific evidence out of my arse to prove this. Lucky for me, I don't need something to be validated by someone in a lab to beleive it is possible. I prefer to keep an open mind to anything, so even if I did want to try out something in a dream that I'd never do in real life, there is no way that I could because I can not be 100% sure that the person is just a figment of my imagination. Even if I was, I couldn't be sure that I wouldn't be affecting myself in a negative way.

You may think that dreams are just for fun, that they are only in your head, and that no harm will come to you or anyone else because of your actions in a dream, but how can you possibly know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are right? Because humanity hasn't classified and quantified it and given it Humanity's Seal of Existence? Science has discovered how our brains, emotions, and dreams physically function, but how do those discoveries make anything beyond that impossible? We know that everything we feel, see, experience in any way are chemical reactions in the brain, neurotransmissions, etc. But how do we know that everything we experience is "just" that? How does observing a physical reaction make a spiritual cause impossible? This way of thinking, which seems to be pretty prevalent, just completely boggles my mind. Everything that has been proved to be true by science existed before the day we discovered it , studied it, and deemed, "OK, this is real." I don't remember the scientific community, coming forth and saying "Good news, we've discovered everything." One day, science may prove that there are shared dreaming experiences and other planes of existence that we enter when we dream. If you personally beleive that it is even remotely possible that some dreams occur outside of your head, I can't see how you could check your morals at the door. If you don't beleive this is possible and go around raping and torturing people for fun, I hope that you are right and also hope that I never meet you in real life, especially on the day that you are no longer afraid of social consequences.

yes, certainly.

it is my contention that the primary use of Lucid Dreaming is to bring some sense of Integration and Synthesis between the Civilized Waking Consciousness and the more Primitive Dream Persona.

Many people can hardly fail to notice that their Dream Personas are not so highly atoned to the finer moral distinctions as our Waking Selves. There are less inhabitions regarding both sexual and violent activities. This is because the uninstructed and elementary Dream Persona is simply more Primitive then our waking selves. Lucid Dreaming can be used to correct this. But, remember, Lucid Dreaming is of rather recent invention, for most of us. Before there was Lucid Dreaming, there was Dream Work which focussed largely on Auto Suggestion. One would reflect on one's dream actions and resolve to behave in a more moral and civilized manner and throughout the day one would go over such resolutions again and again. and one would find that one's dreams would moralize and then spiritualize, turning into something of a Spiritual Quest.

When one once decides to climb out of the bottoms of depravity, then one is then put on a journey to the Top.

In one of my first Visionary Dreams, the Goddess Oracle had told me "Only those at the bottom cannot go to the Top" and She pointed off into the distance at this steep tiered Tower Mountain.

Anyway, such Moral Resolutions will help you attain spontaneous Lucid Dreams. As you encounter these moments of Moral Choice of which you have made the object of your waking resolutions then there will be that spark of Waking Intrusion into the contemplations of your Dream Persona which will trigger Lucidity.

Also, as your impulse control improves at the level of your Dream Persona, I can't help but to think your Waking Impulse Control will improve. We may suppose our Waking Selves are bulwarks of restrained and wise decision making, but how often do people even while awake get into silly but destructive fights or end up with the most inappropriate and mismatched of sexual partners? As one trains one's Dream Persona to be less prone to instinctive and primitive urge and impulse, so it is that our Waking Personalities may also be more manageable.

yet, it is the belief of many Lucid Dreamers that the domain of their Lucid Dreams should be an arena for unrestrained violence and sloppy sex. Well, how can we suppose that such moral decadance does not run over into the fabric of one's waking life? yes, while it hardly matters what school children think and do -- the little savages -- but children seamlessly grow into adults, and then what was once just considered good fun becomes the substance of perversion, abuse and crime. Moral Decadance comes out in the end.

so, yes, forget all the fun that Evil can be, and resolve to become a better person.

We dont like to rape in real life because most people care about people too much to hurt them and thats where our conscious comes in. But in lucid dreams, that factor becomes nonexistent. Meaning there is no real person, so there is no person to hurt. Thats why some people would like to rape in their dreams. And of course people would like to rape if it wasnt hurting anyone. Its just having sex without the other person wanting it and everybody likes sex. Same goes for stealing, killing, and all that. I think we can do it in dreams and not be uncomfortable cause we know its not hurting anyone. We can do it in videogames cause we know its not hurting anyone. I mean the only reason our conscious comes up at all is because we know that its a real person, with real feelings, and a real life. If its not a real person then its the equivalent of killing or stealing from a statue. Now would you feel guilty if you did that? Nope.
And juroara, i think you need a therapist.

I am beginning to pick up on two schools of thought here that are subtly different.

#1 - It is OK to do what you want in your lucid dreams because it is not hurting anyone, but you need to be careful just in case your lucid dream is actually transporting you to another astral realm, or the DCs appearing in your dream are real astral beings. In other words, if there are no consequences to your actions, and no penalties, then it is OK.

#2 - You should adhere to your moral code always, whether your conciousness is currently focussed on the waking world or in the lucid world. This is the code you have chosen to live with and as long as you are concious, there are no loopholes. You follow this code wilingly because you believe in it. Thoughts of punishment are not a factor.

The first school of thought is based on a somewhat constrained sense of anarchy and has been adopted by many groups including the Libritarian party. This is also echoed in one of the tennents of Wicca - Do as you will, but hurt no one.
One writing of the apostle Paul seems to point to this as well. In his writings about the old covenant, he taught that all things are allowed to believer, BUT, not all things are profitable.

The second school of thought here, and one I feel requires more from the person that adheres to it, is that you have choosen the moral code you will live by and refuse to deviate from that moral code, whether your conciousness resides in waking or lucid awareness. This is the life I have chosen for myself, to adhere to such a moral code.

May I ask the question though, if something is considered immoral by the tennents of your faith, but hurts no-one, have you violated your moral code if you do this thing while your conciousness resides in the waking awareness?

If you answer that it is a violation of your waking morals then why is it OK to do it when your conciousness resides in the lucid awareness?

One last thought and I will shut up about it. If your moral code says, "I will not rape, murder, or harm anyone in any manner, no matter where my conciousness resides" and you use lucid dreaming as a loophole to get around this moral, then you have committed an immoral act.

If your moral code states, "I will no rape, murder, or harm anyone when I my conciousness resides in the waking realm.", then it is NOT immoral for you to commit these acts when lucid.

I may not agree with your choice of morals, but, once you have defined your moral code, deviating from it constitutes an immoral act on your part,

So, with all that said, how many of you lucid dreamers are violating your morals? I would also kind of like to know everyones age, sex, and where they stand on the issue. It is a proven fact that most peoples moral standards evolve as they age.

Me, 44, male, my morals apply whenever I am consious

Originally posted by kungpow chicken
And juroara, i think you need a therapist.

you didnt even read my post

that comment is really demeaning to the people I care about who have needed to see a therapist

I will add my point of view.

I think that what people do...whether in dreams or in reality defines who they are. If you want to kill someone then you are a killer.

I cant remember the exact verse but in the bible it says that he who even looks at his neighbour with hate has committed murder. So I tend to think that if i lust/hate/murder in dreams i am not being who i want to be in life in general.

Originally posted by Seeker
I am beginning to pick up on two schools of thought here that are subtly different.

#1 - It is OK to do what you want in your lucid dreams because it is not hurting anyone, but you need to be careful just in case your lucid dream is actually transporting you to another astral realm, or the DCs appearing in your dream are real astral beings. In other words, if there are no consequences to your actions, and no penalties, then it is OK.

#2 - You should adhere to your moral code always, whether your conciousness is currently focussed on the waking world or in the lucid world. This is the code you have chosen to live with and as long as you are concious, there are no loopholes. You follow this code wilingly because you believe in it. Thoughts of punishment are not a factor.

The first school of thought is based on a somewhat constrained sense of anarchy and has been adopted by many groups including the Libritarian party. This is also echoed in one of the tennents of Wicca - Do as you will, but hurt no one.
One writing of the apostle Paul seems to point to this as well. In his writings about the old covenant, he taught that all things are allowed to believer, BUT, not all things are profitable.

The second school of thought here, and one I feel requires more from the person that adheres to it, is that you have choosen the moral code you will live by and refuse to deviate from that moral code, whether your conciousness resides in waking or lucid awareness. This is the life I have chosen for myself, to adhere to such a moral code.

May I ask the question though, if something is considered immoral by the tennents of your faith, but hurts no-one, have you violated your moral code if you do this thing while your conciousness resides in the waking awareness?

If you answer that it is a violation of your waking morals then why is it OK to do it when your conciousness resides in the lucid awareness?

One last thought and I will shut up about it. If your moral code says, "I will not rape, murder, or harm anyone in any manner, no matter where my conciousness resides" and you use lucid dreaming as a loophole to get around this moral, then you have committed an immoral act.

If your moral code states, "I will no rape, murder, or harm anyone when I my conciousness resides in the waking realm.", then it is NOT immoral for you to commit these acts when lucid.

I may not agree with your choice of morals, but, once you have defined your moral code, deviating from it constitutes an immoral act on your part,

So, with all that said, how many of you lucid dreamers are violating your morals? I would also kind of like to know everyones age, sex, and where they stand on the issue. It is a proven fact that most peoples moral standards evolve as they age.

Me, 44, male, my morals apply whenever I am consious

Seeker, the only reason you have these morals is because you dont want to harm, in any way, a real person, right? Wouldnt it be silly to have strict morals set out for not killing or stealing from a lifesize blow up doll? Well, thats pretty much how it is when you look at a dc and say, "I cant harm him". Society has cast rape and killing in a bad light because it hurts other people, thats where morals evolves from. My point is, I believe in morals just as much as the next person, but the only reason anybody in the world has these morals is because they care about REAL people. And yes, a lot of people would like to do all the aforementioned things if it wasnt hurting anyone, even those who have strict morals set against it in real life. The high selling shooting videogames and murder movies proves that nicely.

I'm 18, male, and i believe you are free to do as you wish in a lucid dream.

I've decided to stay out of this from here on in.

the reason? No matter whats said here no ones gonna suddenly disown their own moral code, as we have seen with juroara, they will just read the posts not looking at what its saying but trying to pick out every flaw that the poster makes.

this thread is pointless other than to state what your morals are, you cant change peoples opinions on this because of many factors:

1) religion (of course doing stuff that's bad in your dreams are wrong if your a christian, we aren't talking about religion we're talking about your personal values)
2) Peoples morals aren't changed easily, its gonna take a whole lot more than a simple post or two stating every logical reason why your post is correct to pursued anyone to follow in your morals
3) people keep bringing up other consciousnesses as being one of the main reasons why we should be moral. The fact is: theres never going to be any way to prove if we're going to other planes when dreaming, and if we were having dreams with other humans they're going to forget them as soon as they wake up.

juroara, you should really think about making your posts free from anger and hate towards the people your posting at. it really shows through when you do this and makes your posts seem really ignorant and blind. like you6 have no real reason why you follow your beliefs you just do because that's what mom taught you

in conclusion this post is only going to cause useless fighting. I'm sure if you all do a search for "morality" you'll find plenty of views on the subject without having to worry about fighting about it

(don't flame me I don't plan to look back at this thread, all it is is a bunch of anger fueled rants at each other)

have fun

Originally posted by kungpow chicken


Seeker, the only reason you have these morals is because you dont want to harm, in any way, a real person, right? Wouldnt it be silly to have strict morals set out for not killing or stealing from a lifesize blow up doll? Well, thats pretty much how it is when you look at a dc and say, "I cant harm him". Society has cast rape and killing in a bad light because it hurts other people, thats where morals evolves from. My point is, I believe in morals just as much as the next person, but the only reason anybody in the world has these morals is because they care about REAL people. And yes, a lot of people would like to do all the aforementioned things if it wasnt hurting anyone, even those who have strict morals set against it in real life. The high selling shooting videogames and murder movies proves that nicely.

I'm 18, male, and i believe you are free to do as you wish in a lucid dream.

PS: dude you used like two of my examples lol

Firstly, Seeker, breaking this matter down into two "schools of thought" is pretty artificial. I, myself, don't fit in either of those schools of thought, and I imagine, neither do others here. I understand a good part of the reason for your post is to clear up the debate, clarify things, and prevent a good deal of the anger-fueled debate going on here... and while I think that "schools of thought" can be identified in some issues, and that this is productive, I just don't think that is the case in this debate.

For the purposes of this post, I'm gonna take a freudian approach to demonstrate my point. And, I know a lot of people don't agree with freud, but for the purposes of this debate, I think his ideas are VERY VALUABLE.

The human, under freud's philosophy, has three levels. The "superego", the "ego", and the "id".

The "id" is our most basic desires, our animal instincts, and what operates, largely, at a subconscious level. Our wants, desires, etc.

The "ego" mediates between the id, our unconscious, animal desires, and the reality of the real world. The ego identifies that in some cases, pusuing our own satisfaction and following the id may be harmful for us in the long run.

The "superego" performs a different role. The superego is different from the ego, as the superego serves to regulate our actions through our moral codes, etc. Our superego is formed by the various moral and ethical rulkes that we impose upon ourselve.



So, what is the point of all this? In a dream, the NEED for the EGO disappears. Nothing can hurt us in the long run, and the ege should have no role. (In reality, of course, we often find ourselves regulating our conduct within dreams, but, it is theory I am talking about here, not reality).

So, in a dream, we are left with the id, and the superego. The question then becomes: Should we retain any part of our superego in dreams?

If not, then, there seems no reason why dreams should not become the id's playground, a stage for our subconscious, animal, instinctive desires, our deepest subconscious thoughts, etc.

Myself, I see there to be no reason why we should logically retain the supergo in dreams. In a dream, therefore, there is no reason why we should try to be anything more than just the id.

If we are to do so, we shall fuind that the "id" unleashed varies from person to person. In my opinion, the id is one's core nature. The ego and superego only serve to REPRESS that core nature. For myself, I like to believe that I have a good core nature. I do not, could not, and would not rape anyone, or murder anyone, or hurt someone, in my dreams. Or at least, I would not take pleasure from it. This is NOT because my superego or ego regulates my actions... it is NOT a result of the moral chains I put upon myself. For in a dream, I believe, those chains should be gone.

Rather, it is a result of the fact that my id, my core nature, does not tend towards those actions, and I have no desire, and get no pleasure, from them.

So? My MAIN POINT:

If one is to accept this view, we are left with the following thought:

Humans restrict their actions and suppress their id, their core nature, through use of moral codes and the like. For some people, the id is good, and mostly harmless. For others, it is more dark and dangerous.

We should NOT be talking about the superego and the moral chains we place upon ourselves. We should be talking about the id, that is, we should be talking about why some people WANT to do such things as rape and murder in the first place.

Interesting way to look at it Meanie. I hadn't thought to bring Freud into this, but, isn't it the ultimate goal of mental and spiritual evolution to bring the id, ego, and super ego into harmony? If I am recalling my Frued correctly, all three of these are in constant conflict with each other and it is partly this conflict that brings about mental illness?

I quess I can concede the point that lucid dreaming may help some people bring these into harmonization. Perhaps this is why I seem to be at odds with most of you in this matter, I feel my id, ego, and super ego are pretty much at peace with each other.

BillyBob, you said:

religion (of course doing stuff that's bad in your dreams are wrong if your a christian, we aren't talking about religion we're talking about your personal values) [/b]

To me, these are one and the same, my religioin and personal values are one and the same.

kungpow, you said:

Wouldnt it be silly to have strict morals set out for not killing or stealing from a lifesize blow up doll? Well, thats pretty much how it is when you look at a dc and say, "I cant harm him". [/b]

In my opinion, the lifesized blowup doll is only a surregate. The anger, emotion and thoughts still remain, all you have done is to redirect it to something that is imaginary. How can anyone feel good about directing such actions against a living being or it's surregate?

billybob, I wasnt even angry at you

I wasn't forcing morality on anyone, but giving examples how people can not go against their own morality in a dream. this is my understanding of the human mind, not my opinion. I am trying to keep as close as possible to the books here!

seeker, I fit neither in category 1 or 2..how about a number 3?

3. your own moral code doesn't matter in the dreaming, unless you want it to matter. a moral code is shaped by society, laws, government, peers and religion, and of course yourself. And since dream characters aren't real, CAN you do whatever you want in the dreaming? Yes, and technically you can do whatever you want in the waking world too..........But morality still applies in the dreaming in that your morality is reflected by your emotions over your own actions. Not a moral code. Not the action itself. But how you feel about that action.

Do you feel SATISFACTION, do you feel ENJOYMENT, or DISGUST, or ANGER, or GUILT, or NOTHING at all if you ripped apart human flesh in the dreaming, your own or someone elses? Emotions are real. At all times. And your emotions reflect how you FEEL about something. You may be lucid in the dream and even know that Dream Characters aren't real. But your emotions are tied to the subconscious. If you disagree with that, try telling everyone who is clinically depressed or has BPD that they consciously control their emotions.....

We have a lot of names for emotions, but we can easily stuff them into three categories. Postive. Negative. And Neutral.

ok..

still with me?

Whats another word for positive and negative? Good and Bad. Do you feel GOOD or BAD or NEUTRAL when you rip apart human flesh in a dream?

there is a loophole if you do want to shut me up so badly. but to post the loophole you first have to understand what I am saying

Me, I like killing things. I just like it. Maybe I'm just screwed up. I DO NOT like causing pain to any other living things. In reality, I don't even kill ants, bees, even MOSQUITOES!

But in a dream, nobody is going to be hurt by those. If I kill a DC, will the DC's family be screwed up forever? Maybe, but it's not real and my dreams are too linear to think about the person's family.

I think, that if you kill in a non-lucid dream, and you don't feel guilty, then you must like killing in real life. However, if you will only kill people in lucid dreams, and you don't feel guilty, I don't see what the problem with it is. If you truly do not want to harm any living being or thing, yet what you do is "fun" to you when you don't have to worry about harming anyone else, then do it in a lucid dream.

NOTE: I've never actually killed anything in a dream before. Not even in lucids ones, but thats just because I haven't had enough lucids or control to kill anything (yes, that means if I could I would kill a DC while lucid). It is 3rd on my to do list in lucid dreams (fly, eat candy, kill).

Those were really good points blue meanie, and I agree with them all except one. I dont think it has to be buried deep in your subconscious for you to enjoy these things. I think the reasons are more simple. Like, you like killing in your dream because you "shouldnt" be doing it and you get a rush from it. You enjoy stealing because of the same reasons. Now, if in a dream, you take a dc, rip him open with a knife, watch the blood spill from his veins and get a certain satisfaction from that, then I think you should take a look inside. But if its more simple like going on a shooting rampage, stealing things from stores, with adrenaline flowing through your veins, then I think its harmless and its exactly what lucid dreaming was intended for. Doing things that you cant do in real life, without repercussions or consequences.