Thread: This Guy Bashes Lucid Dreaming!?

Yeah, some people are weird. A lot like Leo Volont, a former member of this forum (he got banned a while back, before you joined. Trust me, it's a good thing he's gone).
Anyway, Leo insisted that pursuing Lucid Dreaming was pointless and even harmful on a few occasions.
Really, I think its just that they have no imagination, and lack the capacity to keep themselves amused.

And when you do run out of things, you can try and see if there are any astral planes you can visit. But it would be hard to run out of things...

I heard from a few people who're very good at LDing that it gets boring. You don't know what else to do, you've tried everything possible and understood that lucid dreams are, just like normal dreams, nothing but an illusion.

Originally Posted by Follower

You don't know what else to do, you've tried everything possible.[/b]

Two reasons why you should never listen to anyone who's told you either of the above statements^

1) If you don't know what to do, in a realm where anything is possible, you are too boring to ever get enough out of the experience to give anyone advice on it. That's like someone who spends all their time living in a box trying to say that "Life," objectively, "is boring."

2) Anyone who tells you they've tried everything possible needs to......just shut up, and not speak again, actually....

......Ever.

Lol.

Originally Posted by Follower

I heard from a few people who're very good at LDing that it gets boring. You don't know what else to do, you've tried everything possible and understood that lucid dreams are, just like normal dreams, nothing but an illusion.
[/b]

Either these folks were not truly lucid or exhibit a lack of imagination. I can't imagine lucid dreaming as ever being boring. Also it is not what you do always in a lucid dream that makes them so very interesting. It is the knowledge and understanding, the very revelations of self that can be so totally enriching and valuable in our self development. Dreams in themselves are incredibly valuable and brutally honest about the self. I would recommend to look at the underlying elements of a dream to gain the full value and experience of these incredibly revealing phenomena.

What is an illusion? Watching a TV show could be considered as the same, nothing but fantasy.

If they feel that dreams are the same as lucid dreams then they have not truly experienced full blown lucidity. No wonder they are so adept at it. They don't truly realize the difference...and there is a huge difference!

Ya I'd think godhood would be an endless oppurtunity of creativity, after all thats what creativity is for, it's also nearly unlimited.

oh and the method mentioned in the article is definatly VILD.

yea i totally agree!
i could L/D from 8 to about 18 in total control
i'm my now 28 and have lost the ability, gutted!
point is, i would do anthing to get it back!

you never get bored, just more creative!

what a weirdo. if you are in ultimate power and were bored you are weird. and lets say that it did get boring cause nothings a challenge, if you are in ultimate power create a challenge big enough! lol you are in ultimate control so you create a big enough one.


this guy is weird.

What a nut, and talk about totally over analyzing everything, thinking to much and coming up with weird ideas. I don't know if he understands not everyone thinks like he does in his delusional ways, I would say this guy would be quite weird in RL lol. As a some saying goes not the situation that is boring it is him. I don't think he had 100% control all the time, and he undeniably wouldn't have tried everything, even if he used his LD to enhanced some skills to better his everyday life??? Pfft maybe he was not that creative and couldn't look outside the square when it cames to somethings. He should stop looking at the negative side of things and just have fun.

No, the folks who told me that they were bored were not lacking imagination. And they weren't lying. They got bored with lucid dreaming, coz they understood that it was an illusion. It was like growing up for them. Can you still enjoy believing in Santa Clause?

yea either way, I wish I could LD every night,lol.

Originally Posted by Follower

No, the folks who told me that they were bored were not lacking imagination. And they weren't lying. They got bored with lucid dreaming, coz they understood that it was an illusion. It was like growing up for them. Can you still enjoy believing in Santa Clause?
[/b]

If you are a serious student of LD then you have plenty of support here on this forum.

Your Santa statement tells me quite a bit about you however. You are not a true lucid dreamer because if you were you would understand. This is sad because we humans all have the ability. If you want to think that Lucid dreaming is a fairy tale then that is your perogative but we are willing to help.

No one here is bashing you my friend. If you seek the truth then you will find it. I have experienced levels of dreaming that are simply astounding. It is not myth, it is not fairy tales.

It is self-enlightenment.

And yes I can still enjoy believing in the spirit that is Santa Clause.

Don't go away, please realize that there are people here that are willing to help you fulfill your goals...if your intentions are sincere and you understand the nature and the context of this phenomena.

There's a huge difference, though.

I can enjoy the concept of Santa Claus, if I choose to let myself be a kid again.

More fitting analogies would be: Can you still enjoy blockbuster movies, knowing that they are works of fiction?
Can you enjoy virtual reality, knowing that you're only playing a game?


Answer: Hell yes.

I agree with O.

If you can feel it, can see it, can enjoy it, then it's real enough to be worth every bit of time spent on it.

people should not waste time debating what someone enjoys. if they think its real- its real. Even in disregards to lucid dreaming, arguing with an 'insane' person is pointless because its all about what they perceive. if someone perceives something as reality, and they have faith in it, there's not a way you can get them to believe otherwise. which comes back to the definition of insane- which is impossible because thats all about what we see as insane, but the insane person thinks we're all insane, thus making us insane. blah blah blah this doesn't matter just stop arguing about everytihng and the world will be fine. ignore peoples' attemps to counter something that you see as important in your life. tbh: completely ignore anything you want if it makes you happy. ignorance is bliss. and so is tolerance. so that person should just tolerate that we get glee in our 'false' realities and learn to accept that we allways will.


siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh i've posted that so many times in so many places it seems pointless because there will always be people that disagree. and they should. its their right.

Originally Posted by Don

Your Santa statement tells me quite a bit about you however. You are not a true lucid dreamer because if you were you would understand. This is sad because we humans all have the ability. If you want to think that Lucid dreaming is a fairy tale then that is your perogative but we are willing to help.[/b]

No, I don't need help. And no, I didn't say that I don't enjoy lucid dreaming myself, though I must admit that I don't enjoy it very much now. It was different when lucid dreams were rare and I looked forward to them. At the moment I don't even know what to do in a lucid dream, all the things that people usually do do not attract me. Doing them is lame, and this is a sad truth. 99% of people who turn to lucid dreaming do it for the same reason that others overplay computer games, overwatch TV, overuse sex or use drugs: they want to escape real life. They want to have all their time filled with something or with memories of something like thrilling dreams, so that they don't have to look back at their lives and realize how empty and meaningless they are... I'm not saying that everyone is like that, but in order to lucid dream frequently and well you have to put some effort into it. So if you can, if you really can, then you're escaping life. Effort requres time and much wish.
Tell me sincerely now what's your goal, to have some fun that you'll never have in real life, to have a girl (or a boy) that you'll never have, to find yourself in some new place, to discover some virtual world? All of it is pathetic... It's just a chldish game, an illusion, an escape. I'm not trying to offend anyone, sorry that it might sound like an insult.

Originally Posted by Don

I have experienced levels of dreaming that are simply astounding. It is not myth, it is not fairy tales.[/b]

Right, me too. So what? It is still an illusion. Nothing is real out there.


Alucinor Architecton

Originally Posted by Don

people should not waste time debating what someone enjoys.[/b]

That guy wasn't forcing his view on anyone, he just posted an article YOU read it, he didn't force you to

Originally Posted by Follower

No, I don't need help. And no, I didn't say that I don't enjoy lucid dreaming myself, though I must admit that I don't enjoy it very much now. It was different when lucid dreams were rare and I looked forward to them. At the moment I don't even know what to do in a lucid dream, all the things that people usually do do not attract me. Doing them is lame, and this is a sad truth. 99% of people who turn to lucid dreaming do it for the same reason that others overplay computer games, overwatch TV, overuse sex or use drugs: they want to escape real life. They want to have all their time filled with something or with memories of something like thrilling dreams, so that they don't have to look back at their lives and realize how empty and meaningless they are... I'm not saying that everyone is like that, but in order to lucid dream frequently and well you have to put some effort into it. So if you can, if you really can, then you're escaping life. Effort requres time and much wish.
Tell me sincerely now what's your goal, to have some fun that you'll never have in real life, to have a girl (or a boy) that you'll never have, to find yourself in some new place, to discover some virtual world? All of it is pathetic... It's just a chldish game, an illusion, an escape. I'm not trying to offend anyone, sorry that it might sound like an insult.
Right, me too. So what? It is still an illusion. Nothing is real out there.
Alucinor Architecton

That guy wasn't forcing his view on anyone, he just posted an article YOU read it, he didn't force you to
[/b]

I don't believe that 99 % of folks enjoy LD to escape reality. LD enhances the waking mind and compliments it. And even if your opinion had any merit of truth (which I don't believe) then LD would be the healthiest escape of the ones that you mentioned. I have a great job, a beautiful family, good health etc. I am not trying to escape from anything. I realize that I want to be able to enjoy MORE of life and LD allows me to do just this. Lucid dreaming can also offer therapeutic values as well. What of the amputee or the patient with MD that would like the freedom to fly or walk. It would enhance their life even if in their mind.
Please don't mock people that enjoy all that the human mind has to offer.

If it seems pathetic to you then why waste your time here? I am curious to know your answer.

Also it would seem that you are describing that you chose lucid dreaming to escape reality. You don't seem to be a very happy person. I am sorry for you.

Also if that is all that you have to offer me in reply then I am finished talking with you. YOU are a bigger waste of my time and resources then I care to spend.

No offense taken by the way, and not trying to flame you.

I hope that you have a great and fruitful day!

Follower:

I strongly disagree with just about everything you've just said.

99% of people who turn to lucid dreaming do it for the same reason that others overplay computer games, overwatch TV, overuse sex or use drugs: they want to escape real life. They want to have all their time filled with something or with memories of something like thrilling dreams, so that they don't have to look back at their lives and realize how empty and meaningless they are... I'm not saying that everyone is like that, but in order to lucid dream frequently and well you have to put some effort into it. So if you can, if you really can, then you're escaping life.
[/b]

Wow. What a depressingly materialistic view on life you have.
Another case of “Anything without substance – without a mark in the physical world – is hereby meaningless. It is an illusion. It is fake, and anyone who enjoys it is simply reveling in fantasy – a feeble attempt to escape the pressures of ‘real life.”
That’s so sad.
I’m not sure if anyone told you this or not but conscious experience, whether awake or otherwise, is “Real Life.” There is a difference between believing in a fake phenomenon and enjoying a phenomenal experience that you know is fake (even though dreams aren’t “fake” but I’m working with you, here).
What goes on in your mind is a part of You and it is no more logical, intelligent or commendable to pretend “it doesn’t matter because it’s fake,” than it is for NASA to obliterate the space program because people believe it displays a “pathetic strive to escape the hardships of living on earth, as humans were meant to.”
But of course, it doesn’t take much for someone to come along and make that sort of argument about the space program, using the same sort of broken logic you’re using now.

Why do people take up sports? Why do people learn martial arts? Why do people skydive? Race? Freestyle BMX?
Why do people explore the depths of the ocean? Space? Their own minds?

They each have their own reasons. But even if it were for nothing more than a little excitement every now end then, who is someone like you to say that their means of seeking adventure is pathetic and that they are only doing so because their “regular,” daily lives are so meaningless, and they want to tuck-tail and escape?

Tell me sincerely now what's your goal, to have some fun that you'll never have in real life, to have a girl (or a boy) that you'll never have, to find yourself in some new place, to discover some virtual world? All of it is pathetic... It's just a chldish game, an illusion, an escape.
[/b]

Well, as an artist who draws most of his inspiration from dreams, fiction, etc. it’s hard for me not to take offence to something like that. Your view of “real life” as a cold, material world with no place for fantasy, imagination or enjoyment of a periodic, conscious retreat into the realm of infinite possibility that is your own “God-given” dreaming mind makes me wonder how old your kids are going to be when you demand that they “stop daydreaming and think of nothing but a materialist’s education” and “leave all the dream adventures and fantasies to those pathetic people with no hold on reality.”
Studying (and even training) for something like lucid dreaming is one thing. Devoting one’s life to locking themselves away into the dream world and never seeing the “real” (note the quotations) world is another. I’ve gone from knowing of No One else that could lucid dream, when I was a kid, to being around this place long enough to know that not even 99% of the people on this forum LD simply because “Reality sucks and I want to get out” (let alone 99% of the people, worldwide, that LD).

At the moment I don't even know what to do in a lucid dream, all the things that people usually do do not attract me. Doing them is lame, and this is a sad truth.
[/b]

Of course you don’t know what to do. Your perversion of “what is real and what isn’t” has instilled you with far too much pride to enjoy something that you can’t classify as “real” simply because it’s gone when you wake up. If you took that self-defeating shackle off of yourself you’d find that there was not only well-deserved, “childish” adventure to be had but, also, a lot of scientific merit to being able to consciously experience a world created entirely by your mind.

famous quote: "Your mind controls your reality"

Please don't mock people that enjoy all that the human mind has to offer.[/b]

Don’t take offence, I did warn that my views might seem offensive. I wasn’t mocking anyone.

If it seems pathetic to you then why waste your time here? I am curious to know your answer. [/b]

I’m searching for something. You might know, judging by your nick, that lucid dreams get used in different teachings, seemingly for useful purposes. Dream yoga for instance aims to use them as additional means to obliterate a so-called dualistic vision of our mind. It’s a useful psychological transformation despite how weirdly it is called. Maybe there are other things.

Also it would seem that you are describing that you chose lucid dreaming to escape reality. [/b]

Originally I turned to it for other purposes. And I was thrilled with lucid dreaming anyway. But when I discarded those purposes and tried to treat lucid dreaming as a game in a virtual reality it turned out to be a disappointment. The thrill went away coz I actually saw that everything around is ruled by me and that I’d be better off writing a book or creating a game if I want to exercise my imagination. That would take the same effort but would be of SOME use.
And, doesn’t lucid dreaming make you feel lonely? You’re all alone there, surrounded only by creations of your own mind. You cannot share that “virtual reality” with someone else, you can only retell your experience to someone, but you can never ever truly share. It’s like a movie that you can only watch alone and can never retell in a right way. It’s always sliding through your fingers.

YOU are a bigger waste of my time and resources then I care to spend. [/b]

You should have said it in the very beginning of your post, then I wouldn’t waste time replying to you

Oneironaut:

Wow. What a depressingly materialistic view on life you have. [/b]

My view is by far not materialistic, you can see that now from my answers to Don Juan

I’m not sure if anyone told you this or not but conscious experience, whether awake or otherwise, is “Real Life.” [/b]

Psychiatrists would be interested in your opinion, maybe you could dissuade them from giving medication to mentally ill people who have a right for their “real life”. Some hear voices or hallucinate and they’re still conscious. And dreams are, of course, unreal, it cannot be proved otherwise until someone reaches this reality through dreams somehow . That’s why your comparison with a space program doesn’t work, there is nothing unreal about space and other planets.

Studying (and even training) for something like lucid dreaming is one thing. Devoting one’s life to locking themselves away into the dream world and never seeing the “real” (note the quotations) world is another. [/b]

Most people who are good at lucid dreaming have to devote a big part of their lives to it, coz they do not have a natural talent. And who has it? So their lives do suffer. We aren’t talking of one minute lucid dreams once a month, of course. And I’m sure that most people who hang around such forums take lucid dreaming as a hobby, never giving it enough attention, and it’s good.

Your perversion of “what is real and what isn’t” has instilled you with far too much pride to enjoy something that you can’t classify as “real” simply because it’s gone when you wake up. [/b]

Pride? Goodness. Dreams can’t be classified as real, ask someone who you can trust, a scientist or a doctor. I did enjoy many things a while ago, take talking to DCs, it was like having a new toy. Later I understood that they’re parts of my own mind, nothing but robots and they would always say what I unconsciously desired. Lucid dreams can put you in an adventure and be thrilling, but computer games can do the same for you, and they’re easier to get.
For reasons that are hard for me to understand I like lucid dreaming too much, so now I’d like to find in it something real, something useful, some purpose, something to benefit from. For myself and others.

My take on the article was that the author was hellishly bored with LDing because everything became oh so predictable.

after reading this coloum it's obvious that some people who think the've experienced lucid dreaming HAVN'T. all the bullshit about becoming bored and over analysing the subject.

when i was in total control i just looked apon it as a gift and injoyed myself, simple as that!

get real.

Sorry. Kinda long. Was typing while working and didn't have much time to consolidate my thoughts. :sweat1:

Psychiatrists would be interested in your opinion, maybe you could dissuade them from giving medication to mentally ill people who have a right for their “real life”. Some hear voices or hallucinate and they’re still conscious. And dreams are, of course, unreal, it cannot be proved otherwise until someone reaches this reality through dreams somehow (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smiley.gif). That’s why your comparison with a space program doesn’t work, there is nothing unreal about space and other planets. [/b]

You’re misunderstanding what I mean.
The experience (not the content) is, subjectively, real.
Many would argue that emotions aren't "real," because they simply take place in the mind (and are, arguably, unnecessary), but if someone's "illusory" emotion of Hate can cause him to reach out and stab the person in front of him with an icepick, how can you deny his hate was real?
Dreaming of doing something that is impossible in waking life has every bit as much “use” as thrill-seeking for entertainment, in waking life – which, in your eyes, may be none at all. I don’t know. The “use,” to me, is subjective. It is what you make of it. The ability to have immersive sensory experiences that you can’t have in waking life, provided by your own mind, is one hell of an adventure. The reality is in the experience, the feeling, not in the environment.
To carry such an insulting view on people that explore it for that reason, I think, is a little egocentric – no offence meant.
In lucid dreaming of battling a million-man army, alone, you know that the army is not “really” there, however, if your dreams are usually as vivid as mine are, you know that a swipe from one of their swords can feel a lot like waking life. I’ve been LDing (on and off) since I was a kid and, knowing that the content is a dream, have never found myself unable to embrace the scenario. When it comes to entertainment, I guess it takes a certain frame of mind to suspend the “Oh it doesn’t matter, it’s all a dream” logic and simply enjoy the dream content, as if it were real, despite knowing it’s only a dream. Maybe that’s what you’re lacking, which is understandable, and would explain your inability to think of something you’ll enjoy doing, while LDing.
But then again, most of my non-lucids are off-the-wall and adventurous anyway so, when realizing I’m dreaming, I usually don’t have to try too hard to come up with anything fun to do. Heh.

As far as mental patients:
The difference is that LDers are aware that what they are experiencing is in their head, as it’s happening. It is not something that threatens to hinder or endanger their waking world reality.
You know, in all honesty, I’d dissuade anyone from giving medication to someone that 1) has no discomfort with their hallucinations and 2) isn’t a danger to themselves or anyone else. If they are walking around seeing smiley faces in the flowers and hearing “It’s a small world,” knowing that what they are experiencing is simply a hallucination and would not cause them do something irrational, would you push medication on them?

Most people who are good at lucid dreaming have to devote a big part of their lives to it, coz they do not have a natural talent. And who has it? So their lives do suffer. We aren’t talking of one minute lucid dreams once a month, of course. [/b]

I’d love to know where you picked that statistic up. And how good are you talking about? There is a huge gap between “one minute lucid dreams, once a month” and someone you apparently feel is “good at lucid dreaming” because I consider myself pretty good, and I don’t consider that I’ve devoted a big part of my life to it.

And I’m sure that most people who hang around such forums take lucid dreaming as a hobby, never giving it enough attention, and it’s good.[/b]

I see what you mean, and I agree that it’s not good to let even the pursuit of LDing consume your life, but I still think you have the wrong idea about people who LD only for adventure (and I’m not speaking as someone who does it only for the adventure, but it is a large part of my motivation, I openly admit).

I did enjoy many things a while ago, take talking to DCs, it was like having a new toy. Later I understood that they’re parts of my own mind, nothing but robots and they would always say what I unconsciously desired. Lucid dreams can put you in an adventure and be thrilling, but computer games can do the same for you, and they’re easier to get.[/b]

You can compare the immersion of a PC game to the immersion of a vivid dream? Please tell me where you’re getting these supergames from, because I’ve never seen anything that even comes close. Videogames (not to mention entertainment of All media) are trying their hardest, generation after generation, to become more realistic. Making the claim you just did, you imply that there is now open-ended virtual reality technology so real, that the evolution of the videogame industry will now come to a stand-still.
I’ve talked to DC’s and got completely unpredictable reactions. One DC, for instance, will tell me, when asked, “No, you’re not dreaming” while another one will look at him like an idiot and “Wtf? Yes, you’re dreaming, don’t listen to him.” Realistic, dynamic, dialogue (common, for me, in LDs) is something else that videogames are not able to produce, convincingly.

For reasons that are hard for me to understand I like lucid dreaming too much, so now I’d like to find in it something real, something useful, some purpose, something to benefit from. For myself and others.[/b]

Nothing wrong with that. You have your reasons for seeking the things that you do (which are reasonable) but maybe you shouldn't take such a belittling view on those who don’t use the medium for your same purposes, especially when it’s something that you used to enjoy, yourself, and convinced yourself is not worth merit. I agree that LDing can be lonely, if you let it. If you choose to perceive it that way. I treat many of my DC’s as if they were my waking life friends, often, when I’m LDing, and their reactions are usually enough to keep me from being lonely while dreaming. Sure, it sucks that my real friends can’t be there with me, or I can only retell the story after waking up, but I’m sure many people that trot around the globe don’t feel so discouraged by loneliness that it keeps them from wanting to see and experience whatever they can. They accept it, and are able to enjoy it because of that acceptance.

Leo Volont, a former member of this forum (he got banned a while back, before you joined. Trust me, it's a good thing he's gone). [/b]

I personally found Leo Volont a very interesting character, but I didn't get some of the things he talked about