Thread: would it be a sin?

Originally Posted by a_pirates_life_for_me

actually you CAN know, which is what non-religious people find hard to believe, but I'm not going to go through the whole explination of HOW you can know because 1) You probably wouldn't understand 2) you probably wouldn't care 3) you probably wouldn't believe me

I totally agree. Science, archeology, and history proves it. You just have to go out and do some studying.

Originally Posted by a_pirates_life_for_me

actually you CAN know

you probably wouldn't believe me

Don't these two sentences contradict each other?

How can you proove to me, that God spoke to people?

Originally Posted by Marvo

How can you proove to me, that God spoke to people?

The real scary question is, if God did speak to someone, how do we know that person didn't write something completely different from what God said in order to further his own agenda?

Originally Posted by skysaw

The real scary question is, if God did speak to someone, how do we know that person didn't write something completely different from what God said in order to further his own agenda?

They probably did. Think back to when puritans roamed the earth.

Originally Posted by Marvo

How can you proove to me, that God spoke to people?

I know I can't, might as well speak to God yourself.

Originally Posted by a_pirates_life_for_me

actually you CAN know, which is what non-religious people find hard to believe, but I'm not going to go through the whole explination of HOW you can know because 1) You probably wouldn't understand 2) you probably wouldn't care 3) you probably wouldn't believe me

You can convince but you cannot prove what is unprovable.

The "proof" provided by theological supporters is always along the lines of "you just know because God speak to your heart". Now, I can't claim to disprove that because, again, it's unprovable either way. But what I will say is that "having a strong feeling" or "just knowing" is not the same thing as having proof.

Being spoken to in an internal manner is subjective and does not constitute tangible, reproducible proof. No, let me repeat that - NO - physical "proof" can ever clear up the controversy over whether or not the words in the Bible were dictated by God or merely the creative writings of ancient wordsmiths.

You may convince, yes. But to prove is a taller order than anecdotal musings can ever objectively fill. Now, none of this is to say that religion is insignificant. I believe organised religion serves a worthy purpose and function in society. I just don't attribute supernatural capabilities to its foundations.

I believe in the power of attitude and its body of implications and that religion is actually a manifestation of that, only interwoven with the objective of explaining what cannot be explained with today's body of knowledge.

Originally Posted by skysaw

Don't these two sentences contradict each other?

No, he has faith and faith is believing without absolute proof, so a non-believer would not believe the explanation... probably

Originally Posted by skysaw

The real scary question is, if God did speak to someone, how do we know that person didn't write something completely different from what God said in order to further his own agenda?

Good Point. Brings up that Man can listen to God and not record exactly what He says. Plus, the bible is composed of multiple gospels written by different people with minor nuances and some gospels were rejected for being too different (Gospel of Judas, which has recently been discovered).

Originally Posted by Oneironaught

You can convince but you cannot prove what is unprovable.

The "proof" provided by theological supporters is always along the lines of "you just know because God speak to your heart". Now, I can't claim to disprove that because, again, it's unprovable either way. But what I will say is that "having a strong feeling" or "just knowing" is not the same thing as having proof.

Being spoken to in an internal manner is subjective and does not constitute tangible, reproducible proof. No, let me repeat that - NO - physical "proof" can ever clear up the controversy over whether or not the words in the Bible were dictated by God or merely the creative writings of ancient wordsmiths.

I think since multiple gospels say different things and deduce different meanings out of Jesus' teachings, the bible was written by man. Not to say they did so without God's ideas, but it doesn't seem that God directly ordered the saints or usurped their bodies.

Originally Posted by skysaw

Don't these two sentences contradict each other?

no, because when I say "You CAN know" i'm talking about people as a whole when I say "you probably dont believe me" I'm talking about that one individual

Originally Posted by TheUniversalOne

I know I can't, might as well speak to God yourself.

Prayers? I once did prayers. Now I don't do prayers anymore, and I don't feel the slightest difference.

Originally Posted by skysaw

The real scary question is, if God did speak to someone, how do we know that person didn't write something completely different from what God said in order to further his own agenda?

If you were God, would you trust just anyone to write the bible through your words, or would you pick someone absolutely trustworthy that would write it to the letter exactly what you said?
and another question, if you were chosen by God to translate the bible, would you honestly lie and write something different with God telling you personally what to write. would anyone?

Originally Posted by Marvo

How can you proove to me, that God spoke to people?

that's not the kind of thing that another person can prove to you

I may have mentioned this before but, it's worth noting that the Bible is only a collection of books. Many of them are stories that had been passed down by word of mouth far earlier than they were actually written out, just like any great myth of the ages. So, details change, people get made larger than life, meaning gets distorted.

There were libraries full of books to choose from when the Bible was compiled. Those that made the cut were simply cherry-picked to reinforce church doctrine and politics. The ones that actually contradict church dogma were tossed out in the first heat.

So, not only were the books themselves written, rewritten and edited by Humans but, the Bible was assembled - with strategic bias - by Humans.

Originally Posted by a_pirates_life_for_me

If you were God, would you trust just anyone to write the bible through your words, or would you pick someone absolutely trustworthy that would write it to the letter exactly what you said?
and another question, if you were chosen by God to translate the bible, would you honestly lie and write something different with God telling you personally what to write. would anyone?

I'll answer your questions with another question... how do you know the person with a pen in their hand was ever spoken to by God? Who was there to stop one of the writers from just saying "Hey... just heard from God. Hand me that pen!" ? Who was there to stop one writer from saying "Oh.. I don't like that passage the other guy wrote... let me just cross it out"? ... and if you just answer "God was there," then I ask, why didn't God just pick up the pen then?

Last question... how do you know God didn't inspire others to write their sacred texts which conflict with the Bible?

ok, first off this isn't something that i'm trying to be too serious about, I'm just curious what people might think, and if you're not religious at all, it's fine if you comment on something, but please no "religion sucks" comments, honestly, from experience, those conversations are a waste of time. Ok so here's the question. You can do whatever you want in a lucid dream right? So if I did something in a dream that people would consider a sin in real life, like raping someone (even though I have no intention of EVER doing that, it's just an example) would you consider it a sin? Even though it's in a dreamworld and you're not really doing it, but you're concious and you're controlling yourself to do it? Just wondering

Yeah u burn in hell

Originally Posted by towarmforacoat

I think since multiple gospels say different things and deduce different meanings out of Jesus' teachings, the bible was written by man. Not to say they did so without God's ideas, but it doesn't seem that God directly ordered the saints or usurped their bodies.

different gospel teachings isn't always relient on the bible. Some pastors from a while back would say things like "God has already chosen who will be saved and who will not and there's nothing you can do about it but be a good person incase you have been chosen" (which is definately NOT true) but there's NOTHING in the bible that teaches that. It was the pastor's misconception of the symbolism. It's like that with other religions; they all percieve the different things and it's not the bible that's causing this but the leaders of their specific church that have their own ideas about it.

Originally Posted by Arbaces

Yeah u burn in hell

I didn't mean to offend anyone. It was just a question, did you even read the part in the post when it said "This isn't something I'm trying to be too serious about, i'm just curious" chill out if you dont like it then dont read it you dont have to leave nasty comments like that

Originally Posted by a_pirates_life_for_me

actually you CAN know, which is what non-religious people find hard to believe, but I'm not going to go through the whole explination of HOW you can know because 1) You probably wouldn't understand 2) you probably wouldn't care 3) you probably wouldn't believe me

I think that you're confusing what one believes with what one knows (not that you can ultimately know something)...
1) Probably I would, if you differentiated BELIEVING (which I fully respect) and KNOWING 2) I would care 3) I would believe you if you presented me proof or a plausible explanation... And if you were to present facts, then I wouldn't need to believe you.

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

I totally agree. Science, archeology, and history proves it. You just have to go out and do some studying.

How can science prove that the bible was written through the word of god?! Science can't even prove the EXISTENCE or NON-EXISTENCE of god... But please, point me out in the right direction. If there is such prove I would love to read about it.

Originally Posted by skysaw

I'll answer your questions with another question... how do you know the person with a pen in their hand was ever spoken to by God? Who was there to stop one of the writers from just saying "Hey... just heard from God. Hand me that pen!" ? Who was there to stop one writer from saying "Oh.. I don't like that passage the other guy wrote... let me just cross it out"? ... and if you just answer "God was there," then I ask, why didn't God just pick up the pen then?

Last question... how do you know God didn't inspire others to write their sacred texts which conflict with the Bible?

Do you think God would be stupid enough to have someone translate and write such a big thing with a bunch of people around with pens and paper and especially people that would do things like that. Besides, when the words of the bible were first written they didn't even HAVE pens and paper back then. they had the words carved into stone and brass plates, so I dont think there would be guys around crossing out words made out of stone.

the next question, why didn't God just pick up the pen then? How am I supposed to know! I'm not God! All I know is that he didn't do it himself, he wanted someone else to for some reason. or maybe it was because he wasn't on earth and he couldn't just come down from heaven in front of people and start writing the bible. He needed someone from our world to recieve revelation. If you still dont understand, dont ask me, ask him

last question - how do I know that god didn't inspire others to write their sacred texts? I dont know, maybe he did! But if God inspired anyone who was writing the BIBLE to write something, then there has to be a reason! It must be important if God is going to inspire them to write it, so that question doesn't even make sense

Originally Posted by a_pirates_life_for_me

Do you think God would be stupid enough to have someone translate and write such a big thing with a bunch of people around with pens and paper and especially people that would do things like that.

I don't know... but he lets thousands die every week... or maybe he doesn't and he would also let "someone translate and write such a big thing"

Originally Posted by JCDenton

I think that you're confusing what one believes with what one knows (not that you can ultimately know something)...
1) Probably I would, if you differentiated BELIEVING (which I fully respect) and KNOWING 2) I would care 3) I would believe you if you presented me proof or a plausible explanation... And if you were to present facts, then I wouldn't need to believe you.



How can science prove that the bible was written through the word of god?! Science can't even prove the EXISTENCE or NON-EXISTENCE of god... But please, point me out in the right direction. If there is such prove I would love to read about it.

You keep asking for proof but how is someone else going to prove that to you? You're getting the wrong idea. If you actually care then you should try and find out for yourself. It's not about knowing, even though you think it is. It is about believing which is why a_pirates_life_for_me said that in the first place. It's about believing and having faith. That's like saying "I know what lucid dreaming is but I dont believe in it."

Originally Posted by JCDenton

I don't know... but he lets thousands die every week...

what does that even have to do with what I was saying? And yes thousands die every week, but EVERYONE dies! That's the way life is! we're here on this earth to be tested and what kind of a test would it be if everything was easy and we didn't have trials and challenges to face, either dying or having a loved one die. It's all to see how strong you are. If we didn't have life and trials and misery then how could we really enjoy and appreciate what God has to give us if we return to heaven? He doesn't just let people die. There's a point. Maybe it's their time to die and maybe he needs them for something other than being here on this earth. You need to take things like that into perspective and not blame things on God

wow this is getting very off subject of lucid dreaming sorry bout that

Originally Posted by a_pirates_life_for_me

what does that even have to do with what I was saying? And yes thousands die every week, but EVERYONE dies! That's the way life is! we're here on this earth to be tested and what kind of a test would it be if everything was easy and we didn't have trials and challenges to face, either dying or having a loved one die. It's all to see how strong you are. If we didn't have life and trials and misery then how could we really enjoy and appreciate what God has to give us if we return to heaven? He doesn't just let people die. There's a point. Maybe it's their time to die and maybe he needs them for something other than being here on this earth. You need to take things like that into perspective and not blame things on God

Yes... you're right man. I used a bad example and realized as soon as I posted it. But I had to go dinner lol. My point was: If he would lift his "hand" for the bible to be written though his true word, why doesn't he stop the atrocities that are practiced every day? (I'm not trying to prove his existence\inexistence here)

What I'm trying to really say is: He may exist, I don't know... But that doesn't mean the bible has been written through his words and those words have been kept along the centuries... As someone has said, some portions of the bible were even burnt...


but yeah, it's reaaaaaally getting off topic lol =|