Thread: would it be a sin?

Originally Posted by Marvo

Prayers? I once did prayers. Now I don't do prayers anymore, and I don't feel the slightest difference.

Oh, I thought you were speaking about the actual connection to the oneness with everything people experience when they meditate. Umm to do prayers I think a connection is important or else you might as well be talking to your thumb. Imagine picking up a phone and talking without dialing someone's number.

Ya'll have gotten quite off topic, huh?

Wow! What an interesting thread with tons of quotes from the Bible. Very interesting and enlightening.

I'll just add that the nature of God is love as the Bible says that "God is love and they that dwell in love dwell in God, and God in them".

But does God care what someone dreams about? To answer that question put yourself in God's position.

Here you are sitting on top of the universe with a few billion people below you and one of them has a dream where they rape someone in their dream. Do you care what this one person in a few billion dreams about? Probably not, unless they begin carrying out those actions in real life.

Another way to think about this is to think about how you feel about a pet you may own. If your pet who might be a dog goes over and starts humping another dog are you going to tell him he is sinning, and disown him. I doubt it. You're probably going to laugh at him and tell him to behave himself. Are you going to love him any less? Probably not.
I'm sure God probably feels the same way toward us when we do something we shouldn't. He's still there, and he still cares for us. He probably even laughs sometimes at the things we do.

But is having a lucid dream where you rape someone a sin? The main thing to ask yourself is whether your dream is harming someone else, or if it is harming you, and the answer to both of these questions is probably "It depends".

Since the thoughts generated by a persons mind are energies that can be felt by other people, if the person in your dream you are raping happens to be someone you know, they could very possible feel the energy you are creating, which could cause them harm, and which would be wrong.

For the second question Is a person harming themself by producing a dream of this nature? Probably not, unless it becomes a habit and then starts causing the person to act out those fantasies in real life.

When a person becomes lucid in a dream, they have a choice. They can pursue sexual dreams and stay on the lower astral realms in their dreams, or they can pursue more spiritual enlightening dreams and progress upward into the higher astral realms. I prefer the latter, usually, although I have to admit that I have had a couple of sexual encounters in the dream world that were better than anything I've ever experienced in the physical world, and from which I felt very healthy afterwards. So I would not argue against fulfilling ones fantasies while in the dream world.

It is really up to each person to decide how they would like to spend their time when they become lucid, because virtually anything is possible in that realm.

Originally Posted by a_pirates_life_for_me

Do you think God would be stupid enough to have someone translate and write such a big thing with a bunch of people around with pens and paper and especially people that would do things like that.

You're failing to recognise that that's exactly what did happen to the Bible.

you still dont understand, dont ask me, ask him

[translation]Don't ask me; I have no idea. I'm just going by my gut and what I've been told.[/translation] Which is fine but, you have to make the distinction between that and truly "knowing" (I know, we can never truly know, blah-blah). Facts can be proven (if they are to be considered true facts). Knowing is not necessarily that way. Knowing is simply believing with good reason. What defines good reason, however, is very subjective. This is contrary to proving, which is objective. Scripture is the object of faith and - with the exception of the historical passages that are provable - remains largely unprovable.

Originally Posted by luv2dream

It is about believing which is why a_pirates_life_for_me said that in the first place. It's about believing and having faith.

I agree. The entire discussion is over the fact that a_pirates_life_for_me hasn't clearly defined his terms and is using believing and knowing interchangeably, when they are two separate concepts, albeit somewhat related.

Originally Posted by JCDenton

No, he said "actually you CAN know". I were the one saying you can't know... You can believe though.. and I respect that

True. I think we can all respect that.

I think we all see what he's saying and can probably stop arguing in circles. Or maybe not.

I think the post by iard was very good... also, what do you mean by higher realm dreams?

God didn't just to talk to the people, they were under inspiration. They wouldn't write something else because there have been of writings of the man themselves that stated that the prophesies they were writing were from God. Normally man would want to take the credit. Some men like Daniel said they didn't even know what they were writing. God's spirit led them to write, not them alone.

Originally Posted by JCDenton

Yes... you're right man. I used a bad example and realized as soon as I posted it. But I had to go dinner lol. My point was: If he would lift his "hand" for the bible to be written though his true word, why doesn't he stop the atrocities that are practiced every day? (I'm not trying to prove his existence\inexistence here)

well he can't stop all the bad things that happen every day because people have free agency. But yeah it's ok, I'm kind of getting too carried away with this anyway. And I'm sorry if I came off sounding as though I was trying to change your beliefs or anything like that.

Originally Posted by a_pirates_life_for_me

Do you think God would be stupid enough to have someone translate and write such a big thing with a bunch of people around with pens and paper and especially people that would do things like that.

No. Actually I just don't believe there is a God. But you missed the point... this is a thought question to show you the problem with believing what was put down on paper by men, not God. ANY man (or woman) can write something and claim it was inspired by God. If they were to bring that writing to you, by what criteria would you determine if it was in fact divinely inspired?

Plenty of ministers and "holy people" of our times claim to have spoken to God. If one of them presented you with a new bible so inspired, would you accept it as God's new word? And if not, why not? Wouldn't their communication with God hold as much weight as those who came before them?

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

God didn't just to talk to the people, they were under inspiration. They wouldn't write something else because there have been of writings of the man themselves that stated that the prophesies they were writing were from God. Normally man would want to take the credit. Some men like Daniel said they didn't even know what they were writing. God's spirit led them to write, not them alone.

And some people like us weren't there to see for ourselves.

Originally Posted by a_pirates_life_for_me

well he can't stop all the bad things that happen every day because people have free agency. But yeah it's ok, I'm kind of getting too carried away with this anyway. And I'm sorry if I came off sounding as though I was trying to change your beliefs or anything like that.

no, you were just defending your own beliefs, like me... This thread got to heated up anyway =\

Originally Posted by iadr

Here you are sitting on top of the universe with a few billion people below you and one of them has a dream where they rape someone in their dream. Do you care what this one person in a few billion dreams about? Probably not, unless they begin carrying out those actions in real life.

that is good insight, but dont you think it would be different if it was a lucid dream, and you were conciously making the decisions on your own?

your quote: You're failing to recognise that that's exactly what did happen to the Bible.

And I suppose that you know this because you were there to see it... or like what everyone wants, you have proof?


your quote:[translation]Don't ask me; I have no idea. I'm just going by my gut and what I've been told.[/translation] Which is fine but, you have to make the distinction between that and truly "knowing"

right, I have no idea about WHY God does the things he does, but I never said I have no idea about if God exists, if the bible is true, etc. etc. and everyone's so focused on KNOWING and having PROOF but you're all failing to realize that you cannot prove these things to anyone but yourself! and I already have. (don't ask me how, just see my previous posts about why I'm not going to get into all that) Religion isn't about KNOWING all the facts, it's about BELIEVING (even though that seems to be something that you're against) which is why it's so hard for people to accept religion; because you need to actually open your mind and TRY to feel something. And there are so many religions out there, that if someone tries one and it doesn't work for them they just give up on all the others. So no one give me crap about "i've tried, nothing happens" or "but you need to KNOW" because that's what my beliefs are about

Originally Posted by JCDenton

As someone has stated, I think religions (and the bible) have been created for power and control because they've been created by man who where seeking their own interests.

WRONG!!!! I am personally revolted by that. Have you even seen the freaking point of religions??!!!??!! It's a guarantee of what HAPPENS WHEN YOU DIE!!! That is the most stupid statement I've ever heard about religions. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Jimbo9889

Misunderstood what I was saying... They obviously care about you but... Its not who you are that will send you to Hell its what you do that will determine that...

It's not what you do that will determine if you're going to hell or not. I won't explain what determines if you're going to hell or not, because it'd take a little too long for most of you, but that's not true.

Originally Posted by Oneironaught

You can convince but you cannot prove what is unprovable.

Amen!!

Originally Posted by a_pirates_life_for_me

what does that even have to do with what I was saying? . . . . If we didn't have life and trials and misery then how could we really enjoy and appreciate what God has to give us if we return to heaven? He doesn't just let people die. There's a point. Maybe it's their time to die and maybe he needs them for something other than being here on this earth.

That's it. That's the whole point of everything.

"If you can't have faith in what is held up to you for faith, you must find things to believe in yourself, for a life without faith in something is too narrow a space to live." ~George E. Woodberry

You know I'm right . . .

Originally Posted by luv2dream

that is good insight, but dont you think it would be different if it was a lucid dream, and you were conciously making the decisions on your own?

Not really luv2dream. Although in most of my lucid dreams I just become aware that I am dreaming, and then control the dream to do what I want to do, the dream still controls me to a certain extent, as I find myself doing things and sometimes having sex with people that I would never consider having sex with in real life. So although I am controlling the dream to an extent, I am not really using the same conscious mind that I would in waking reality when I make these decisions. Either that or else my reasoning is just different because I know that I am dreaming so don't care what I do.

I see no reason for a person to condemn themself for something they do in a lucid dream, as long as it does not become an obsession that causes them to carry those actions over into real life, as the purpose of dreaming is to allow a person to live out their fantasies.

Although I would never consider raping someone in one of my own dreams, as I am aware enough to feel that anything other than mutual consent would just be wrong, even in a dream, I would not condemn someone else for doing that, as their level of consciousness could be different than mine, and I believe in following the verse that says to not judge others, lest you be judged yourself.

Having great sexual lucid dreams might be one of the best therapies a person can indulge themselves in.

So have a ball and enjoy yourself in your dreams. That's what they're for.

People should spend more time thinking about what kind of great sexual fantasies they can enjoy in their lucid dreams, or even better, what new realms they can soar to while in that state, instead of worrying about if something they do in a lucid dream is a sin or not.

Originally Posted by skysaw

If one of them presented you with a new bible so inspired, would you accept it as God's new word? And if not, why not? Wouldn't their communication with God hold as much weight as those who came before them?

Well first I would have to find out the same way that I found out about the other scriptures. By reading it, studying it, praying about it, etc. until I had a testimony that it was true. And if it was true, then yes it would hold as much weight, but i'm sure tha'ts not likely to happen any time soon.

Originally Posted by iadr

I see no reason for a person to condemn themself for something they do in a lucid dream, as long as it does not become an obsession that causes them to carry those actions over into real life, as the purpose of dreaming is to allow a person to live out their fantasies.

I agree with this. When I am lucid I'm never really 100% concious, though I may have had 2 dreams where I was 100% in control. If someone fantisizes about raping someone and carries them out in their lucid dreams to the point where it becomes an obsession... then that will definitely carry over into their physical actions if they allow it to consume their subconcious and concious mind. We think we are in control of our actions, but it's all a result of what we think.



And I don't know why sins have to directly relate to religion. It's just something you do that hurts someone else.

Originally Posted by skysaw

ANY man (or woman) can write something and claim it was inspired by God. If they were to bring that writing to you, by what criteria would you determine if it was in fact divinely inspired?

Plenty of ministers and "holy people" of our times claim to have spoken to God. If one of them presented you with a new bible so inspired, would you accept it as God's new word? And if not, why not? Wouldn't their communication with God hold as much weight as those who came before them?

Originally Posted by a_pirates_life_for_me

Well first I would have to find out the same way that I found out about the other scriptures. By reading it, studying it, praying about it, etc. until I had a testimony that it was true. And if it was true, then yes it would hold as much weight, but i'm sure tha'ts not likely to happen any time soon.

Thank you for answering this, pirate... I thought the question had been had been lost in the shuffle.

I do think you considered the question carefully, and answered the best you could, which I very much appreciate. I wonder if I could bother you to carry this thought process a bit further.

Do you feel confident that you would be able reach a determination? Would you feel driven enough to examine a new text on that level if you had the initial suspicion you seem to regarding any new claims?

I guess what I'm really getting at is whether or not you might see how natural it is to have suspicion about a text's supposed divine inspiration. There doesn't seem to be a litmus test that would show you whether text A were more valid than text B. And if it takes as much study, prayer, and reflection to make a determination, have you given this much attention to all of the other religious texts out there? Might they not have as much an impact on you if you gave them equal time?

Originally Posted by luv2dream

like raping someone

Why bother? It's your dream so will them into wanting to

Originally Posted by skysaw

Thank you for answering this, pirate... I thought the question had been had been lost in the shuffle.

I do think you considered the question carefully, and answered the best you could, which I very much appreciate. I wonder if I could bother you to carry this thought process a bit further.

Do you feel confident that you would be able reach a determination? Would you feel driven enough to examine a new text on that level if you had the initial suspicion you seem to regarding any new claims?

I guess what I'm really getting at is whether or not you might see how natural it is to have suspicion about a text's supposed divine inspiration. There doesn't seem to be a litmus test that would show you whether text A were more valid than text B. And if it takes as much study, prayer, and reflection to make a determination, have you given this much attention to all of the other religious texts out there? Might they not have as much an impact on you if you gave them equal time?

sure I wouldn't mind carrying the thought process further Ok so this is something that I take quite seriously, so if you have anything to say against it... please go easy on me Also, hopefully no one would mind if I use a certain religion, but as for myself I believe in the book of mormon... I guess the bible too... but moreso the book of mormon. Ok so what we believe is in not believing in the church because someone told us it was true or because our parents or friends believe it, but because we have a testimony. Which is kind of what I was talking about with the whole believing, having faith, having a "burning feeling" that it's true (which the actual thing is more on a deeper level than just believing and feeling which is hard for people to understand if they haven't experienced it for themselves) to answer your question about giving other religious texts time, I have been to other churches besides just the LDS church, and the more than one religion believes in the bible, so I have tried more religions than just mormon, but I wouldn't say that I've given them equal time because I've been a mormon for longer because I've gained a testimony. Wow, i'm sure a lot of people on this thread are going to think I'm crazy. like I said... please go easy on me! So my answer to your question as to why I haven't given other religions more time... it's simply because I've already found the right one. And anyone reading this who is of a different religion, dont think I'm trying to convert anyone or anything... and I'm definately NOT telling anyone they're going to burn in hell or something for NOT being mormon, i'm not saying that at all. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with this and I hope I answered your question.

A certain heathen came to Shammai and said to him, "Make me a proselyte, on condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Thereupon he repulsed him with the rod which was in his hand. When he went to Hillel, he said to him, "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor: that is the whole Torah; all the rest of it is commentary; go and learn."

-Talmud

I have a few things to say...

1. All these arguments I imagine like a food fight happening while we try to prove our points. Which I find hillarious... Humble yourselfs people its like a colony of ants bickering back n forth. Priceless...

2. It is the work you do that makes you look good in front of God. Its called Merit! If you have very little merit you still look good in front of God. If people think that by faith-alone you are saved than your no better than the bible pounding religious fanatics who have been around since 300 AD. All hatred can be traced back to Paul is message say kill, let go off, whip them, enslave them or scare them into submission! Thats no better than The Pope saying by order of the Pope saying "Kill All Jews" or "Kill The Muslims" there against our religion they have hurted us! I WOULD NOT LISTEN WHY?! Because, the church is not Powerful God is and Christ is and he said to Love Each Other.

3. The Church preaches about eternal damnation or punishment(HELL). When in reality it is not true. Here is a PARADOX PEOPLE "IF GOD SENT JESUS INTO THE WORLD TO SAVE EVERYONE... WHY WOULD HE DAMN ALL THEM? SOME OF THEM?" Yes hell and heaven exist of course ITS TEMPORARY... Hell is temporary... You stay there until you repay your unforgiven sins. Your purged of them all.

4. The church keeps these words from you making you ignorant to the truth. Love, Respect and Self-Control is Christ message! Jesus Christ... Let me tell you something... You are divine brothers and sisters of earth of this argument and of this forum. Jesus was but a man however, Christ [Annointed One] was the divine. Jesus Christ came into the world to teach of the Divinity of Being Human. He said you experience God when you experience Love. God is Love....

5. So why does God mention all this revenge? Righteous Indignation it is called using love to show the world that love is powerful against Hate and Haters.

So altogether the bible is misinterpreted which means parts of God's word is misinterpreted... Let me ask you something since 300 BC has the General Pattern to Life Changed in a beneficial way? No, Church is an organization of powerful and tricky people. They have there power through the beliefs of others they pull on peoples beliefs and when they say this is wrong than guess what it is wrong to those believers they act by will of the church.

Yet we all know the church corced western society to goto war against Muslims because, they were in the holy land[The Crusades]. Now, wheres the love? Its Gone to the Power to Control People using Fear to Do or Give Things They Want and the church along with any ORGANIZED RELIGION will do anything to Keep That Power!

Pope John Paul II great man made the church look great. Now, Pope Benedict back to the hellfire and Damnation of things. Terrible!

------------------------ Thats was for the Believers -----------------------

Now what about athiest and agnostics...? There wrong to they say Gods Dead and Science explained him away... That invites arrogance and ignorance... Because, now, you have pissed over Ex-Followers of some faith doing and indulging in everything that is selfish and exhibit no control over there emotions and body.

1) The Athiest- I believe God's Dead...
2) Christian- Fuck you asshole your goin to hell...

Both exhibit ignorance...

Athiest denies God> God> Founded Western Religion and If Not Also Eastern Religion> Denies The Teachings and Morals from God since he doesnt exist> Athiest has no morals and thinks he is the master of his own life... "If I want something, I will steal it if I have no $$$"

Religious Guy Hears Hate of The Church rooted in a man who misinterpreted the meaning of Christ> Accepts Hatred> Uses it to scare unbeliever into submission...

Guess what it might get verbal and if it gets verbal one thing leads to another and might get physical! Both ignored The Teachings Christ... Love, Respect and Self-Control... Christ will say "Ignorance is Bliss!"

---------------------- For The Stereotypical Athiest -----------------------

Science was created by man to make ourselves feel like we are all-knowing and powerful beings in this large and currently empty of any other life universe! Humble yourselfs people and realize that we made science because, we try to discredited anothers way of life. We want to feel accepted... Through religion its acceptence by belief and science its acceptence by knowledge and "reason"... We need both and we want to be accepted by others... So what if it was Acceptence by Love, Respect and Self-Control. Than we shall see progress in life!

A good test is to determine whether we can honestly, in good conscience, ask God to bless and use the particular activity for His own good purposes. "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God" (1 Corinthians 10:31). If there is room for doubt as to whether it pleases God, then it is best to give it up. "For whatsoever is not of faith is sin" (Romans 14:23). (c) We need to remember that our bodies, as well as our souls, have been redeemed and belong to God. "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's" (1 Corinthians 6:19,20). This great truth should have a real bearing on what we do and where we go with our bodies.

quoted from http://gotquestions.org/

I didn't write that.

By the way, if that didn't answer your question, then the site will definately have it on there......the people there basically analyzed the entire Bible and then took questions from people and applied thier knowledge to the questions! It's an amazing site!

Originally Posted by Jimbo9889

1. All these arguments I imagine like a food fight happening while we try to prove our points. Which I find hillarious... Humble yourselfs people its like a colony of ants bickering back n forth. Priceless...

haha so true... except with that long comment you posted it seems that you're just another ant like us bickering back and forth about our arguments.

Originally Posted by HandicapReborn

...(Romans 14:23). (c) We ...

Did someone just try to copyright Bible verses? What the heck is that "(c)" doing there?

Ok, I haven't taken the time to read all of the posts, but this right here is just my personal opinion, I'm not trying to convince anybody, just stating my opinion. I think that the idea of sin is created by environment and society. For example, if you were raised alone, with no human contact except for a serial killer, who told you that killing was the right thing and, I dunno, listening to music was a sin, wouldn't you beleive that it was? So anyway, I don't think it would be a sin, because society's rules and regulations don't apply to the dream world. But you probably wouldn't want to do it anyway because since you have been raised in this society whhere killing and rape is wrong, it might make you feel guilty in real life, even though you actually did nothing. Just my 2 cents.