Thread: if LDing is real then what about. . .

Originally Posted by magicdood

I was talking about how martial arts classes make "Chi Balls" and it is a normal practice.

Yes, you are correct that it is not supported in "the real world" but it does happen.

I think you're confusing energy with intentional mental focus. Those energy balls you speak of aren't "energy". They are a mental exercise in concentration and focus of attention. The practitioners of such things do indeed visualise it as being an actual force but - in that aspect - it's not much different from hypnosis. It's merely a visualization technique.

No, it is most definitely a ball of energy. There can be two different forms of practice occurring, but I am quite positive of the one I am talking about, however, I can assume that what you are talking about happens as well.

Originally Posted by magicdood;457119[B

We are energy. Matter is made up of and is energy. That is believed by scientist. WE ARE ENERGY. Proven scientifically. [/B]

You got it wrong.


An atom, is a construction of 2 different particles, neutrons and protons. They stick together in the core. Around the atom, electrons are flying, at enourmous speed.

Now, if we break down an atom, we get neutrons, protons and electrons. These truly are energy, but if we go deeper, we find Hadrons, they are made of Quarks and Gluons. There is also Lepton, they form the electrons.

Leptons and Quarks are the basic elementar particles of the universe. They are what everything is made of, supported by the 4 main forces, Electromagnetism, Weak Interaction, Strong Interaction and Gravity.


This is what the universe consists of. All and everything is made of Quarks, Leptons and gluones (to keep stuff together).

And these are not energy, they are raw matter.

I compare LDing to Magic Eye art. Either you've seen it for yourself and you know it's real or you haven't and you secretly suspect that everyone is just trying to pull a fast one on you, or pretending to see the image. Like the kid in school who "got high" when you smoked him the tea leaves.



I've got a heart on for you.

Originally Posted by skysaw

The word "oblivious" might also be applied to the person who was so focused on his own little world that he missed that the anime reference was nothing more than a humorous jab. Even a subsequent post saying "Haha... pretty clever" didn't clue this person in.

Well I did not know that was a humorous Jab, I apologize, just I've gotten remarks like that for a few years now and after a while you don't consider it a joke anymore .

Originally Posted by Identity X

Maybe a late reply but:

Scientists around the world just WISH that that were true. But it isn't. The fact that matter ISN'T energy is one of the hardest problems in physics, once which facilitates exotic theories such as the idea of the massive Higgs boson in order to explain mass.

Matter and energy are indeed convertable both ways, but this doesn't mean they are the same. Easy mistake to make, I don't think you're stupid for it. But it is a mistake nonetheless.

I've been saying this since he brought it up, he's not going to get it. His psychic powers are getting in the way

Also, I'm glad some other people came in here with some scientific backing for why matter is not energy. Maybe it will help.

Originally Posted by Marvo

You got it wrong.


An atom, is a construction of 2 different particles, neutrons and protons. They stick together in the core. Around the atom, electrons are flying, at enourmous speed.

Now, if we break down an atom, we get neutrons, protons and electrons. These truly are energy, but if we go deeper, we find Hadrons, they are made of Quarks and Gluons. There is also Lepton, they form the electrons.

Leptons and Quarks are the basic elementar particles of the universe. They are what everything is made of, supported by the 4 main forces, Electromagnetism, Weak Interaction, Strong Interaction and Gravity.


This is what the universe consists of. All and everything is made of Quarks, Leptons and gluones (to keep stuff together).

And these are not energy, they are raw matter.

You are incorrect, but you mean well. Your definition is the gluon is "layman's" at its best - gravity and electromagnetism of course "keep stuff together" as well. And you forgot the other gauge bosons (photons being the most obvious of course!). We don't really need a re-iteration of the Standard Model anyway, but hey! I linked it anyway.

And there is energy in the universe? How can there not be.

And I still hold firm to the idea of ki as a disciplinary and visualisation exercise only. We don't see martial artists flinging fireballs around, at least outide of Street Fighter.

Hadoken!

Yeah, I forgot about the photons, that's true.

Originally Posted by Phydeaux_3

I compare LDing to Magic Eye art. Either you've seen it for yourself and you know it's real or you haven't and you secretly suspect that everyone is just trying to pull a fast one on you, or pretending to see the image. Like the kid in school who "got high" when you smoked him the tea leaves.



I've got a heart on for you.

I suspect it's kind of like that with Pk. Just everyone is more skeptical!

Originally Posted by magicdood

I suspect it's kind of like that with Pk. Just everyone is more skeptical!

But at least the 3D images can be proven to anyone. With the right viewer, even those who can't "get it" can be made to easily see what's there.

Without proof you only have theory as far as anyone else is concerned.

Ah, identity X, my hero. Thank you for fielding some of this stuff, you clearly have more knowledge about particle physics than i do.

Trigoton- There is most certainly generic energy, whatever you may call it. Chi, qi, ki....or even psi.

It is used in Martial Arts around would.

Ok, i'm not exactly sure what you're talking about with qi, chi, etc. here. Do you envision putting all your energy into a ball as a form of mental/spiritual/physical focus or are you reffering to something similar to "kamayamaya!!!!!" and shooting a ball lightning out of your hands at an enemy such as buu or freeza? The way people are referring to this qi/chi stuff, it sounds as if they're actual physical energy, and if this is truely what you're intending it to mean, then i must assure you that i've never ever heard of this happening outside of dragonball Z.

Scientists around the world just WISH that that were true. But it isn't. The fact that matter ISN'T energy is one of the hardest problems in physics, once which facilitates exotic theories such as the idea of the massive Higgs boson in order to explain mass.

wow, i just read up on this. This is news to me, correct me if i'm wrong but is this stuff saying that unless they find higgs bosons in the LHC then string theory has to be revised or scrapped??? I thought string theory was the up and coming new standard model =(

Sigh, No it's nothing like Dragon Ball Z...I wish it were! :p

It's invisible to most people, however, it is easily felt in the hands. No, you don't shoot it out like lighting, again, I wish that was the case! haha.

Originally Posted by magicdood

Sigh, No it's nothing like Dragon Ball Z...I wish it were! :p

It's invisible to most people, however, it is easily felt in the hands. No, you don't shoot it out like lighting, again, I wish that was the case! haha.

An old friend of mine had a few useful techniques when you trained in Energy arts but sadly I no longer have his website.
Nah, Chi/Ki/Qi isn't really like DBZ. DBZ is just a more exaggerated form of it. You can't hurt anything physical with it.

Originally Posted by Chaos Theory

You can't hurt anything physical with it.

I see.... so then it has no physical presence, if i read that right.

It's invisible to most people, however, it is easily felt in the hands.

I think identity was hinting at this, if it's invisible to most people then it's "oogy boogy".

Herein i will state the difference between energy and what you guys are talking about. Physical energy is a scientific concept, by scientific i mean that everyone, and i mean EVERYONE with no exceptions, can see its effects. If i take a flourescant light and hold it near a tesla coil, everyone in the room is going to see that flourescant light light up. However, if you use your qi energy to light up that flourescent light, and only two people in a room of 100 people see it, it's not energy, because it's not repeatable. And if it's not repeatable, it's not scientific, and if it's not scientific it's not a physical force but a mental apparition/exercise.

EDIT: oh, so it's a visualization process, you're not claiming to be able to do anything extraordinary with it. In that case, that's cool and is a legitimate technique.

Originally Posted by trigotron

I see.... so then it has no physical presence, if i read that right.



I think identity was hinting at this, if it's invisible to most people then it's "oogy boogy".

Actually when I've done Chi which has been about 2-3 years now I feel a different sensation within my body and hands the before I start the visulization process.

Physical Prescence? No, you mis understood what I meant. I mean you can't blow buildings up with it like " b1g bang " or something of the sort. Many people mistake it for that.

Perhaps manifestation through visualization is self hypnosis. How is life different from self hypnosis?

How often are people going to make up new "particles" something consists of, when we keep finding the particles consist of 99% nothingness?
Matter can be seen as a form of energy, and energy as a form of matter. Just like horses can be forms of animals, and animals kinds of horses. It depends on what's most convenient. Like Bob said, reality seems to be what You can get away with.

And those 3d images are fake. There is no image to be seen in it. I can't see it. There are people who tell me how i can. I tried it but i can't. I don't believe You.

Ok, a thought.

This arguing isn't going anywhere. A couple of people have suggested doing a video, but there would probably be something invalidating it.

So may I suggest that the anti-PK people make a comprehensive list of conditions, to eliminate as much fakery as possible. Then if someone can make a video showing PK under these conditions, or everybody refuses to, then we have somewhere to go with this, and a side that might be winning. And since it's going to be your side that wins, since the other side is obviously wrong, you should have no problems with this.

Other things:

• Make sure the list is comprehensive. If you make one, and then call them on something obvious that you did not list, and might be missed - well, that's just not fair, and makes more work.
• Surely someone can at least borrow a decent camera if they don't have one.
• Psi wheels apparently are very easy to disturb, so it might be better to avoid them.
• And the swallows dance above the sun, the swallows dance above the sun yeah.

American Heritage Abbreviations Dictionary 3rd Edition

psi (n.) - pounds per square inch

The American Heritage® Abbreviations Dictionary, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

In that form, it exists.

You guys will just have to experience it.

Originally Posted by fajam00m00

American Heritage Abbreviations Dictionary 3rd Edition

psi (n.) - pounds per square inch

The American Heritage® Abbreviations Dictionary, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

lmao!

Originally Posted by lseadragon

Ok, a thought.

This arguing isn't going anywhere. A couple of people have suggested doing a video, but there would probably be something invalidating it.

So may I suggest that the anti-PK people make a comprehensive list of conditions, to eliminate as much fakery as possible. Then if someone can make a video showing PK under these conditions, or everybody refuses to, then we have somewhere to go with this, and a side that might be winning. And since it's going to be your side that wins, since the other side is obviously wrong, you should have no problems with this.

Other things:

• Make sure the list is comprehensive. If you make one, and then call them on something obvious that you did not list, and might be missed - well, that's just not fair, and makes more work.
• Surely someone can at least borrow a decent camera if they don't have one.
• Psi wheels apparently are very easy to disturb, so it might be better to avoid them.
• And the swallows dance above the sun, the swallows dance above the sun yeah.

Video is simply not good evidence. I can come up with a great video out of nowhere with my MacBook. Or someone can jack a previous existing video. All kinds of things.

I'd be comfortable with someone reading my mind or remote viewing my location and describing in detail what's around me.

Wig, I agree with you for once. A video simply is not good evidence and I will simply not waste my time making a video for it to be bashed and talked about how it is fake. I mean, even "The best psi wheel video ever" got bashed. If you haven't seen that video, go to youtube.com and search for "The best psi wheel video ever"

Also, it is physical, it's just not visible to most people wihtout training. You can affect physical things, just not as exaggerated as DBZ..unfortunetely. :p

Originally Posted by Chaos Theory

Actually when I've done Chi which has been about 2-3 years now I feel a different sensation within my body and hands the before I start the visulization process.

Yes, you can feel it. But, guess what? I can create that feeling throughout my entire body AT WILL. And that's not a joke, nor is it exaggeration. It's simply a relaxation/mental focus exercise. Nothing more - nothing less.

Physical Prescence? No, you mis understood what I meant. I mean you can't blow buildings up with it like " b1g bang " or something of the sort. Many people mistake it for that.

It's only an internal sensation created by the purposeful focus of attention.

Originally Posted by lseadragon

So may I suggest that the anti-PK people make a comprehensive list of conditions, to eliminate as much fakery as possible.

What we are against is the mislabeling of phenomena. I don't think people are doubting the ability to "feel the energy". What's up for debate is exactly what that "energy" is. It's merely an internal sensation, not a created energy or manifestation of anything out of the ordinary.

It's like trying to claim the goosebumps are the effect of creating some sort of mystical electrostatic field of energy around ourselves. It clearly is not.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Mocari

And those 3d images are fake. There is no image to be seen in it. I can't see it. There are people who tell me how i can. I tried it but i can't. I don't believe You.

Clever as you think you are, the fact is that special viewers can be built to MAKE you see what's there. Can you do that with this magical, mystical ball of energy in your hands? I submit the concrete answer to be no.

Originally Posted by trigotron

Ah, identity X, my hero. Thank you for fielding some of this stuff, you clearly have more knowledge about particle physics than i do.

Only what an A level in Physics can tell me. And I know nothing of string theory if you're wondering, it wasn't exactly on the curriculum.

As to gumby123psi's "you'll just have to experience it", I would honestly enjoy it. I'm not trying to be a killjoy here. I'm not a dour skeptic or anything, just a part-time optimistic one.

I would like to think that we are all living on some plane of the material and the mundane, and some bright souls have punctured through its surface and reached some higher level of experience; that we need not be locked inside our own heads. But I see no evidence for it. Perhaps if we are living in some sort of subsumption architecture of layers - but only stuck at the bottom of the pile, the higher layers cannot influence our layer. But if that was true, the whole problem would be practically irrelevent, because it would never have any influence on me or my actions. Just as anything that exists out of spacetime we can disregard in observable physics, at least in my knowledge of it, I may be wrong.

Thats the only explanation I can give for its absence the average life. Other than that it simply doesn't exist, of course. I'm tempted to (mis?)apply Occam's razor to it again.