Thread: if LDing is real then what about. . .

So wait, you practiced Pk. And how long? With what method?

Also, how does wind or heat have to do with sliding foil or rolling a can...with no hands up. Explain that to me..

Furthermore, this is ridiculously. I know that this has already been posted, but can I please re-post it. Nina Kuglagina. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...lagina&spell=1

She worked under strict scientific surroundings, and had body measurements showedsomething was going on. The scientist found no illegitimate workings.

"Thousands of sceintists are willing to test telekinesis under sceintific conditions." Really, gimme a link to some that are. And don't let it be Randi. Gimme some sources.

Also, I'm sick of you guys using this damn argument. Most of us don't want fame. We don't want any conflict. It would just leave some believing and some not believing and it wouldn't be good. Furthermore, it's usually the people that don't want fame that progress, cause they are patient and are doing this for a better reason than fame.

And how about this. Maybe, just maybe, pk is an ability performed on another dimension. But, what happens there happens here, it just looks like nothing happened. So, therefore science would not be able to test it cause it isn't on the physical dimension. So...lack of scientific evidence? Of course, it might be untestable. And also, I believe fully in what Mocari said. We see what we believe we should see.

So I might levitate a pencil in front of you, but you would just see it laying on the ground cause you can't comprehend that possibility. Sounds pretty reasonable of a theory to me.

Also, why are we still arguing? I just rolled a can not to long ago...no hands up. So, I mean, what exactly are you trying to tell me? That pk isn't real? Well that's fine, you can tell me till pigs fly cause it's not affecting me any. So for you to tell me it's not real is hilarious..However I know that you won't believe that but it's fine. 19,000 people claiming to do it should be enough.

Who would spend the time creating these sites and methods and stuff, for nothing? Why?

Originally Posted by skysaw

I agree. When I first heard of it, it instantly made sense. Your dream is just your imagination, and your imagination potentialy has no limit.

Of course in this sense, LD is exactly like telekinesis... both are products of the imagination.

Products of your imagination? Hehe. Ok...well I've showed telekinesis to friends and parents, and they both saw it move exactly like me and the other spectators so try again.

Originally Posted by magicdood

Products of your imagination? Hehe. Ok...well I've showed telekinesis to friends and parents, and they both saw it move exactly like me and the other spectators so try again.

I can move things too. I studied magic as a child, and still remember lots of tricks.

Gosh Darn that is funny. Obviously I mean Pk though. And yes, I did refute your imagination claim, so try again.

Hardly a refutation... you are aware of the meaning of the word?

What you are experiencing is not "PK," it is commonly referred to as "Static Electricity." Here is the explaination and repeat experiments duplicating your moving foil or cans (hello.... red flag!)

http://www.cicap.org/new/articolo.php?id=101003

If that's too much to read, you can skip down to the last couple of paragraphs and get the gist.

Hehe, did you not read where I did it with no hands. Don't you think I'd be more careful than that? Jeez, I take my scientific measures as well, heh. So yes, no hands, face a few feet away and covered by shirt.

Originally Posted by magicdood

Hehe, did you not read where I did it with no hands. Don't you think I'd be more careful than that? Jeez, I take my scientific measures as well, heh. So yes, no hands, face a few feet away and covered by shirt.

Yes. Are you aware that I have four arms and my house is made out of Nutella? Are you aware that people can type whatever they want and make whatever claims they want?

But more seriously... Are you aware that magicians can duplicate that feet without psi abilities (and probably a lot more convincingly)? Are you aware that no one has ever done what you claim and been recorded under strictly controlled conditions?

Nina Kuglagina has. And yes, I'm very aware. I could just as easily be lying.

But are you dumb. Just cause a magician can do it 1 way, does it mean that it cannot be done another way? I don't think so.

Originally Posted by magicdood

Nina Kuglagina has. And yes, I'm very aware. I could just as easily be lying.

But are you dumb. Just cause a magician can do it 1 way, does it mean that it cannot be done another way? I don't think so.

And the insults start; the first sign that someone's arguments are not strong enough by themselves to make the case.

The very point I was making was that it could be done another way. I wasn't attempting to prove a specific method was used, rather that your specific method ("psi") was not the only explaination. This to counter your claim that there was any proof at all. Unless you can discount slight of hand, you have proven nothing.

Well, I do magic as well, hence the name, and I'm well aware of the ways it could be done in magic. I've even thought about including pk in my act, hehe.

But that still means that the option of Psi is still open. But I still don't know why I'm sitting here debating with you. I understand why you might not believe this..I really do. However, I just did pk a little while ago, after I had gotten up, so it's hard for me not to be frustrated, hehe. .

Nina is your hard evidence? She uses a trick table, which is why she only went as far as using a plexiglass box over the objects, and not a glass table (refer to youtube videos). Its quite obvious if you watch the videos. Thats no more "strict conditions" than ASmattman's videos. In fact, his were better done than Ninas. The fact is that no video is a sutiable surrigate for evidence, nor is any testimony. There needs to be actual testing in actual labs by real and reliable sceintists, and it needs to be reviewed and repeated by other people as well.

And about quantum physics, you seem to be forgetting something here. You act as if there are already dozens of examples of sceintists not being able to explain what seems to be telekinetic movement, and all sceince is waiting for is an explnation of an already recognized phenomenon. Thats not true at all. The case is that no one has done TK under strict conditions yet, not that no one can explain TK. We are still waiting on someone to actually do TK under lab conditions. Until that happens, there is no need to study quantum physics for a phenomenon that has yet to be observed in lab conditions.

I've done it infront of people. And Nina didnt use a trick table, because its STRICT TESTING CONDITIONS. They examine everything.

Originally Posted by magicdood

Nina Kuglagina has. And yes, I'm very aware. I could just as easily be lying.

But are you dumb. Just cause a magician can do it 1 way, does it mean that it cannot be done another way? I don't think so.

Seriously, stop spouting off that Nina girl. I already posted a quoted of her criticism. The experiments were done by the USSR who had a vested interested in at least pretending like they had developed psychic powers.

I think what's important to remember is that saying "Psi will one day be accepted as fact just like LD was told it didn't exist and became science!" Just because it happened to LD doesn't mean it will to Psi, so get over it and stop using that argument. It's logically flawed. Just because you can think up something that would be cool to exist, doesn't mean it ever can exist. Think: free-energy, cold fusion, fairies, unicorns, etc. It goes all over. I'm honestly really surprised someone hasn't shouted "conspiracy!" yet, so at least some of you have some common sense.

The point is, all these websites claim so many members and yet none of them ever come forward to at least help the world. So that's why I call you guys selfish if you really can do what you claim. Which you can't, but besides the point.

It also seems to me that psychic ability in the way a lot of people are claiming is incredibly useless were it to be real. A psi-wheel that is real small - use? No one ever seems to do anything bigger than handsize. So what you can move foil and a soda can. So can I - by picking it up. I'm probably faster too simple because you have to "warm-up". I was talking to some guy last night how he "played a game with numbers" and sent his friend numbers between 1 and 10 to his other telepathic friend and he was able to get 3 out of 6 right. That's a little bit above the random chance (28% I think?) but it's such a small set and people can develop patterns in their friend. Impress me and do 1 in a 100. Another useless tool since it's hardly accurate.

Stepping away from the hypothetical, we all still must ask: if psi really exists, why are all of you so hard-up in not using it to help people? I'm sure some kid in Nebraska needs his can moved over a few inches.

Originally Posted by The Wig

I'm sure some kid in Nebraska needs his can moved over a few inches.

LOL! That sounds like some kind of naughty euphemism.

It helps you focus your mind, well lose you your mind and aids in self-realization. Now, I'm not saying that everyone uses for that, in fact most people don't, but that is what I am learning it for.

Also, jeez, I didn't think it up. I researched, practiced, and am succeeding. Is it that hard of a concept to understand? I did tk a few hours ago. Don't tell me it's not real...it's just funny.

Originally Posted by magicdood

It helps you focus your mind, well lose you your mind and aids in self-realization. Now, I'm not saying that everyone uses for that, in fact most people don't, but that is what I am learning it for.

Also, jeez, I didn't think it up. I researched, practiced, and am succeeding. Is it that hard of a concept to understand? I did tk a few hours ago. Don't tell me it's not real...it's just funny.

Okay, we've all been saying this: you saying that you can do TK doesn't make it real. Since you have been so far unwilling to to even attempt to prove to us in a somewhat tangible way, why do you bother trying to prove it to us by simply saying you can?

Almost forgot, TO ALL YOU TELEPATHISTS: post what I'm going to do today. There's one "major" event I'll be doing, so my day isn't cluttered up. I live in Northern California if it helps. If the power isn't capable of doing something easy like that, it's really kind of useless and shouldn't even be bothered with. If you want peace of mind and self-realization study Buddhism.

I don't care if you believe me or not. Fine, I'll stop saying that. In what way do you want proof? A video...why...you would just find ways to call me a liar. So what do you want me to do?

Originally Posted by magicdood

I don't care if you believe me or not. Fine, I'll stop saying that. In what way do you want proof? A video...why...you would just find ways to call me a liar. So what do you want me to do?

Read my mind.

You guys are right about one thing. There arent many uses. That I can deal with, I dont care if its useless. I just like it. Some of it is usefull though. Telepathy can be usefull, the military uses RV too.. And I communicate with my subconcious all the time and get usefull information. With energy manipulation I can use it to cool down, or heat up if I'm cold. TPS to get people to do what I want, though I never really learned TPS. See? Its not all that useless. The only useless one in my opinion is PK. Its still my favorite though. It helps with focus and concentration though, and patience. Meditation does wonders for you too. And btw Magicdood never learned scanning.

Originally Posted by Needcatscan

So while reading another person's thread, I found he said something that I have been thinking about for a while. If it wasn't for the fact that I've had LDs before learning about them and what they were, I would have put it up there with all the other things that were not real, IE telekinesis, ghosts, OOBEs, psychics, bigfoot, and so on. My main reasons for not believing in these things is that IF they were in fact real, then wouldn't there be a lot of science behind it and scientists researching it? I mean really, if a person really could read another's mind or if someone really could move objects by will alone, wouldn't that be some big news? Like Phenomenon with John Travolta, he really could do this and there was all kinds of scientists wanting his brain. But unlike Phenomenon, there is no credible evidence for any of these things.

That's where LDing comes in: "waking up in your dream? That's called being awake!" would have been something close to a typical response when telling someone about LDing. How can we be AWAKE while ASLEEP? It's a contradiction, yet most of you who are reading this can accomplish just that, as well as myself (kind of makes you feel like a superhero doesn't it?). YET, there is very little research on it, just LaBerge and his team of whatever-nauts, which I'm sure have little standing in the world of scientists. You tell people about your LDs and they look at you like you told them you were abducted by aliens and anal-probed.

Point being, if Lucid dreaming is really possible, then what about all the other sketchy things that have little to no research or scientific backing? I've seen youtube videos of people supposedly moving objects with their minds, we've all probably seen bigfoot videos, and hell, there are a crap load of psychics who claim they can tell the future.

I've always been a straight up realist, if I can't touch it or experience it then it's BS, so LDing has really got me rethinking things (except religion, I will eternally be agnostic).

What do you guys think?

It can't have any "scientific" backing because it can only be "backed" by experience, which in scientific terms is null and void. Even if you were an open-minded scientist and I told you I could project to your house and tell you the sweater you were wearing and so we decided to "experiment" with the idea, it's not something that could be published. There's no substance to it. People would just think I already knew or whatever. The scientists who probably are trying to research this, I know there must be some...I've read at least one book about astral projection where the author was one of the most skeptical scientists until experiencing AP.

I don't know how people can't believe in LDing because I've spoken to several people about it and almost all of them have informed me they have done it at least once, they just never knew what it was called. It's not really something to "believe" exists anyway, because everyone dreams it's just a different type of dream. Obviously, for someone who doesn't know what a LD is you can't say it's "waking up while dreaming" that's poor word choice. I describe it as being able to realize you are dreaming and then control your dream. You have to be a pretty boring, highly skeptical person to think that's not possible. I'd hate to live like that.

As far as having to touch, experience to believe I think most of my experiences are from my willingness to investigate everything I hear about with an open mind. If I had laughed when my aunt told me she could project I wouldn't be here. I think anything is possible especially when you realize we're about as "real" as our thoughts.


Ps- I don't understand why it's hard to believe in telekinesis especially if you've taken physics. It's just the ablity to move energy. We are all energy bodies, why is it so impossible to be able to direct that energy at another object? On top of that "energy can't be destroyed" so what happens to us after we die? That energy doesn't just evaporate into space. It travels somewhere, and then taking into account that essentially all things are living...*mumbles into a never-ending rant*

Peace

Magicdood, record a video of it, that is more than 200x200 in size, it's not black/white crappy quality, it's not super close-up and unfocused, you have to do the act on a glass table/transparent something, glass box if possible, you have to get any kind of static-electricity out of your body, and we have to be able to see both of your hands.

You may never clip in the film, and only you may be nearby, during the filming.

If you think I'm going to do that just to please you guys, you are out of your minds. I DON'T care what you guys think of me or believe in. It makes no difference to be honest.

Also, TheUniversalOne brought up a great point. Think of the universe as a full ocean, and you are just 1 drop of water in that ocean...except the ocean is energy. So how do you tell who is who? You cannot. We are all one, all one energy field, my energy can affect your energy since it's the same. So to move in object, my energy affects the objects energy field. And for that matter, you do telekinesis when you move a pencil with your finger. Your atoms, MADE OF ENERGY in your hand, moves the atoms MADE OF ENERGY of the pencil. Just with telekinesis, you do this without the physical touch. But you are still using your mind to move energy, just like using your mind to move your arm and finger. Credit To NI for those examples.

So, I hope that clears a few things up!

Originally Posted by Marvo

Magicdood, record a video of it, that is more than 200x200 in size, it's not black/white crappy quality, it's not super close-up and unfocused, you have to do the act on a glass table/transparent something, glass box if possible, you have to get any kind of static-electricity out of your body, and we have to be able to see both of your hands.

You may never clip in the film, and only you may be nearby, during the filming.

Maybe we dont have cameras that good. Ever think of that? And there HAVE been videos like that. My camera can go for like 30 seconds and you have to hold the button all the time and its super dark. And even if we did make a video like that. There is no way to prove it through a video. Theres a million ways to fake it. There is NO WAY to possibly convince you guys. You just have to experience it for yourselfves, theres no other way IMO. And you might wanna read this from NI's Training Manual found here: http://psipog.net/art-nis-tk-training-manual.html

"Let's start with the most simple. I don't think it's a big secret and probably every physics teacher will confirm that we all are made of the same stuff: atoms. And all atoms are made of energy. They only differ from each other in size. So basically everything around us and we ourselves are pure energy. You can imagine the whole universe as a lake of energy and yourself as a drop of water in it. But how can you distinguish where that drop starts and where it ends? You are right. You can't. Separation is just an illusion. The computer in front of you is a part of your own energy field as well as you are a part of its energy field. You don't end at your skin. And this leads us to the conclusion that you are one with all the things around you (Screams of horror ).

Separation is a useful illusion. Mankind would never progress if we thought that one being is a part of another being and we all are one. That would be a paradox for the competition between the human beings and therefore a break for the whole evolution.

In many cases it's very useful to think about objects as separate things. In other cases, like in telekinesis, it's necessary to keep in mind that the psiwheel in front of you lies in your own energy field and therefore it can be affected by your energy. You don't believe it? Now touch that psiwheel with your finger. Did it move? Of course it did, because you used your energy in form of atoms of your finger to accelerate the molecules of the paper. Clever, huh?

But even if you don't use your finger, it's possible through some mental processes to alter the state of your energy field and therefore to influence the paper on pin that lies inside of this field. It's possible to make objects move without direct physical contact. But at the end of the day it's still being affected by physical forces. They are just not present as the physical matter, atoms. These forces are based only on the energy. Atoms, the matter, are just a state of the energy, according to my school's technical library. Now that only means that energy doesn't have to be "visible" or "touchable" and it means that it's not only inside of yourself, but also lies around yourself.

Did you ever think why gravitation exists? Nobody can explain why two objects attract each other. Think about it. According to astrophysics, even an object that lies thousands of light years away from you influences you in a very small way with its gravitational field. A gravitational field is an example of an energy field that never fades. It gets weaker but it never disappears completely. And that's another important principle: The Chaos Theory. The world is based on causes and consequences.

You can find a math book about the Chaos Theory. The Chaos Theory says that no matter how small the cause may be, it will affect the whole system, the whole universe. Imagine a butterfly flying somewhere over India. The theory says that even this small movement may and does influence in a very small way the weather in United States. No matter what you do and how small and unimportant your actual actions are, they do change the whole universe. No matter how small the mental process in your head might seem, it does alter, in one way or another, the paper on pin in front of you.

The stronger that mental process is the more effect you'll see.

So how can a simple mental process, twitches of the nervous system, be strong enough to move an object outside the physical body?

I can't answer that question. But if you think for example about the following situation it might show you a possible answer.

Imagine yourself meditating and suddenly something explodes in front of your window. In the same moment your meditation is over. You get up and run away to see what's going on. It happened because the energy provided by the explosion was stronger than the energy invested in your meditation.

Now imagine yourself meditating very deeply. Someone outside calls your name, but you don't realize it. Your body still hears it physically, but you don't realize it and keep meditating. This time the energy invested in your meditation was stronger than the energy used to call your name.

Maybe it's just a crappy theory, but I'm 100% sure it's true. Energy flows where attention goes. Just think of playing pool / billiards. You shoot one of those balls and you miss. Now if you pay your whole attention and even visualize it happening you are most likely to succeed.

The more attention and concentration you put forth, the more energy is provided to move the object in front of you.
"

Now, theres no arguing with that. If all thats true, wich it is, then its technically possible. Science says so. SCIENCE says that no matter how small the mental process, it affects the entire system in some way. When we do Telekinesis, we have to think some mental process and it affects objects. You cant argue with that.

Yes, I do have a video! It's pretty good, but there are of course ways to fake any video. I'm not just gonna make a video so it can be ridiculed by you guys!

And btw Gumby, I love that part of the article!