What happened when I tried this?

[VetteSage]

Last night I tried to... I forget the word (WILD or something). I used the audio mp3 that was supposed to help with lucid dreaming or relaxing and had it set to repeat on my ipod. I laid on my back and tried to focus only on my breathing, trying to count to thirty, then not count, and go from there. Here's what happened: 1. I laid on my back and started the mp3. All lights were off so I wouldn't be distracted and I had my eyes half open (I just kinda relaxed them without them being fully open or completely closed). 2. I did the breathing where you focus only on your breath and count each breath, trying to free your mind of clutter. Here's where it got strange: 3. In terms of hypnotism, I can easily trance myself or self-hypnotize myself. The feeling is similar to what I've heard about this technique, with the feeling of your body being numb and very heavy like it's hard to move, but it's more of a deep relaxation. I started getting that feeling, first in my feet, then up my legs, and finally my entire body. 4. I then started to see everything go... I guess what would be described as "darker", in the sense that the edges of my peripheral vision started to get that hazy like edging to it, but it was a black hazy, so I was starting to only see like a tunnel in front of me. 5. Then I started to feel a bit sick, my breathing becoming not really harder, but it made it feel like I was trying to hyperventilate myself, so I slowed my breathing and tried to make it relaxed. Even though I knew I was feeling sick, I still didn't move and so I don't know if I was thinking about it and thus messed up or what. Here's the more odd part: 6. Even though I was feeling sick, I continued to try and go through with it, not moving, not concentrating on anything, and not really thinking about anything. 7. The darkness started to close in more and more and more on my vision, until it was like I was seeing a pinpoint of light at the end of a very long tunnel. 8. At this point, it was odd... I can't really describe them, but before I started I thought that if I was able to control anything, I would want to go back to one of the dreams I had a while ago, so I thought of the basics of that dream (The location, the people, etc.) and oddly, a few images from the dream started popping up. 9. I didn't really think about it, and I only remember a few images that seem like when you close your eyes after looking at light, the image that remains when your eyes are closed, that was what most of them looked like for what I can remember. 10. It got really intense and I was only seeing these images pop up every now and then, and everything else was essentially pitch black, and I was still feeling a little sick. I tried to move out of it, cause I didn't know what was going on, but it was like I was being covered by a heavy blanket that kept me to the bed. As soon as I tried to move and get up, everything started to go away and eventually I just kinda sat up. That's how I remember everything, although I don't recall what time I started and what time I ended, because right after I sat up I just kinda laid back down and went to sleep practically immediately... and had a few random dreams..... If anything needs to be cleared I'll try to remember, these are just the things that I recall doing and seeing now that I think about it.

[Mes Tarrant]

Sounds like average sleep paralysis (and some onset of WILD) to me, especially with feeling heavy and seeing images. What do you need clarification on?

[VetteSage]

Where do I go from there? When the darkness was rushing in, and then starting to see like the little flashes of images, where do I go from there? Do I just keep staying relaxed and will it eventually pull me into a dream? Or is there another step to getting into the dream? I don't want to be laying there for a long time, only to be forgetting something and just end up going to sleep accidentally.

[Mes Tarrant]

Yeah, that's one of the difficulties with WILD - sometimes people just end up falling asleep. This technique in general is more difficult than others, so if you are just starting out with lucid dreaming, I would recommend trying out others as well. When you are in the stage you described, just stay still until you hopefully start to see more concrete images, and hopefully you will see an entire dream scene appear. When this happens, try to roll off the bed or to stand up... if done at the correct time, you should feel your "dream body" get up while your real body will be fast asleep!

[Thor]

Sounds like average sleep paralysis (and some onset of WILD) to me, especially with feeling heavy and seeing images. What do you need clarification on? No, actually it does not. Feelings of heavyness, numbness, tingling, nausea, lassitude, etc. are all typical symptoms that accompany hypnosis, and he says he is easily hypnotized. And seeing images has nothing to do with sleep paralysis. I very much suspect that most people who think they are in "sleep paralysis" are not. Sleep paralysis simply means that you are unable to move. A common error is to confuse the term sleep paralysis with hypnagogic hallucinations. If you see images, hear sounds, and get odd sensations like vibrations and acceleration, that's called hypnagogic hallucinations, not sleep paralysis. Most likely, many people also misinterpret lassitude (the feeling that it would be too much work to move) and assorted physical sensations as sleep paralysis. If you lie completely still for half an hour and pay close attention to the sensations in your body, you will typically notice many odd things, but it doesn't mean that it's sleep paralysis. Real accounts of sleep paralysis, on the other hand, describe it as if something heavy is pressing your body down and making it hard to breathe, and it is often accompanied by strong fear.

[Mes Tarrant]

blah blah blah. Oi. I pointed out that it was SP because Vette's body was feeling heavy. It is very common for hypnagogic images to accompany sleep paralysis. The "strong fear" part has been reported to occur during SP, but it is not a common enough of an occurrence to be relevant in this discussion.

[Thor]

I pointed out that it was SP because Vette's body was feeling heavy. And you were most likely wrong. Feelings of heavyness are not a symptom of sleep paralysis. The feeling of being crushed down is, however. It is very common for hypnagogic images to accompany sleep paralysis. That's completely irrelevant, and a good example of faulty logic. By analogy it is very common for fever to accompany influenza, but that does not mean that you call any fever "influenza". What exactly do you gain by conflating established terms in this way? The "strong fear" part has been reported to occur during SP, but it is not a common enough of an occurrence to be relevant in this discussion. Really? Care to cite any references?

[Mes Tarrant]

Firstly, I respect your point of view, but a) you could act a little less condescending (that's what the lounge and senseless banter are for these days, anyway) and b) you could provide the first poster with some helpful hints on how to proceed toward his/her goal of achieving a lucid dream. All you are doing now is arguing with me, and with a terrible attitude. And you were most likely wrong. Feelings of heavyness are not a symptom of sleep paralysis. The feeling of being crushed down is, however. I can't possibly address this because the difference between "heaviness" and "crushed down" is a bit too subjective. That's completely irrelevant I see your point that hallucinations are HI and not a cause of sleep paralysis per se, but again I repeat that HI and SP go together very often. It is relevant because the poster wanted to know what was happening. So I helped out. Really? Care to cite any references? You may search around the forums to find references. There have been some topics in the past where people posted something like, "I felt an evil presence" or "it was a very frightening experience". However, when a recent poll was taken regarding SP experiences, most members reported to not only not experience these "scary" occurrences, but they also reported not experiencing much of SP symptoms in general. Please improve your attitude. There is a much better way to discuss differences in opinion. Peace out.

[Thor]

Firstly, I respect your point of view, but a) you could act a little less condescending (that's what the lounge and senseless banter are for these days, anyway) and b) you could provide the first poster with some helpful hints on how to proceed toward his/her goal of achieving a lucid dream. All you are doing now is arguing with me, and with a terrible attitude. So, let me get this straight: when you quote me and substitute "bla bla bla" for what I wrote, you are in no way condescending toward me? In my view, a very important condition for fruitful exchange of ideas and experiences is sufficient precision in language. If some people in a group start calling apples oranges and potatoes onions, it becomes very difficult to have a meaningful conversation on recipes. I can't possibly address this because the difference between "heaviness" and "crushed down" is a bit too subjective. There is a huge subjective difference here. I regularly practice self-hypnosis and deep relaxation, and when I do I feel as if my body weighs several tons. On the other hand, when you feel crushed down it doesn't feel as if you are heavy, but that there is a heavy weight resting on top of you. I see your point that hallucinations are HI and not a cause of sleep paralysis per se, but again I repeat that HI and SP go together very often. It is relevant because the poster wanted to know what was happening. So I helped out. You probably meant well, but you only gave him the wrong idea of what sleep paralysis is. You may search around the forums to find references. There have been some topics in the past where people posted something like, "I felt an evil presence" or "it was a very frightening experience". However, when a recent poll was taken regarding SP experiences, most members reported to not only not experience these "scary" occurrences, but they also reported not experiencing much of SP symptoms in general. I was kind of hoping you would have some references from scientific research. Dream Views forum references don't count as they are self-reported results from people many of which don't even know the difference between SP and HH. Please improve your attitude. There is a much better way to discuss differences in opinion. Peace out. Well, this is not a matter of opinion but of facts. I'm a bit frustrated by this obsession with sleep paralysis on Dream Views, because every day I see at least one newbie posting something like: "Last night I lay still in my bed for twenty minutes and I felt this weird tingling sensation in my toe. Gee, was I like in sleep paralysis." And then someone will respond that "Yeah, that was probably sleep paralysis. Keep trying." First, it is not necessary to experience sleep paralysis in order to WILD. Second, I think that if people focus on getting sleep paralysis and they only get this fake sleep paralysis, then this can actually derail their efforts to WILD. People should forget about sleep paralysis and expect at most hypnagogic hallucinations. On the other hand it's a good thing to be aware of the possibility of sleep paralysis, since that can make it less scary if it should occur.

[Robot_Butler]

VetteSage, I'm just going to pretend like no one is arguing here, and answer your questions. To me, it sounds like you were extremely successful. The darkness coming in from the edges of you vision has happened to me before. I think the reason it happened is because you had your eyes partially open. When I nap or sleep with the lights on and WILD, I often get this type of transition. When you start seeing the images, you need to try to latch onto one to enter the dream. You still have remnants of your awareness of your body in bed, so your mind separates the dream from you, and presents it like a movie or photograph. Just an image that you are not a part of. To enter the dream, try focusing on one of the images or scenes. Try to 'zoom' your vision in to inspect details. Try to keep things from changing or moving around. If you inspect the details, and keep your attention on the vision, it should develop into a scene. If it is stable enough, you will be 'pulled in' to the dream in an unexpected way. Sometimes it's a bit funny how your subconscious transitions your self awareness into the scene. Read this experience I posted yesterday to see how it worked for me. http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=49024

[Mes Tarrant]

Thor. If you are the all-knowing guy around here, you need to learn to educate people effectively. This right here is not effective because I have now lost all interest in you or your posts. I am sure that other people will be similarly put off by this attitude of yours. I would like to clarify that "blah blah blah" was only put there because I didn't want to quote your entire post which would have taken up a bunch of space. It was not meant to be condescending in any way shape or form. You are the only one here who is condescending, and now you have run out of excuses. VetteSage, I'm just going to pretend like no one is arguing here, and answer your questions.

[Thor]

This right here is not effective because I have now lost all interest in you or your posts. Oh no. I'm devastated. I would like to clarify that "blah blah blah" was only put there because I didn't want to quote your entire post which would have taken up a bunch of space. It was not meant to be condescending in any way shape or form. Oh, is that so? Strange that you didn't apply this ingenious space saving scheme to any of your other 2842 posts. Unless this is a brand new policy of yours, I would have been inclined to believe you are backpedaling.

[Merlock]

Thor, calm down or I'll have to reach through the Internet and backhand you. Your attitude here is one I'm fond of but only towards other guys. Keep it calm, caring and respectful with the fairer half. On-topic though, I've seen hypnagogia no more than a few times that I can recall and I've never experienced sleep paralysis consciously. Judging from that and what I've heard from others, hypnagogia and sleep paralysis don't necessarily go hand in hand indeed. In this particular case, however, it seems that they did. Not being able to move and whatnot. A few useful links on the topic: hypnagogia and sleep paralysis.

[Thor]

Thor, calm down or I'll have to reach through the Internet and backhand you. Your attitude here is one I'm fond of but only towards other guys. Keep it calm, caring and respectful with the fairer half. Ah, the noble knight coming to rescue. Merlock, I'm always stoichally calm. Also, I'm a scientist, and I respect people until they start going astray with made-up facts and faulty logic. And if you think this little friendly banter is anything to speak of you should have seen the flame fests on Usenet in its glory days. In this particular case, however, it seems that they did. Not being able to move and whatnot. I don't think so. Read what VetteSage writes: "very heavy like it's hard to move, but it's more of a deep relaxation" This feeling is called lassitude and I get it every time I'm in hypnosis or deep relaxation. It's the overpowering feeling that it would be too much trouble to move. This is usually accompanied by a feeling of intense heaviness; like my body is made of lead. Often there are other symptoms, such as numbness, tingling, or a floating feeling. People who are familiar with hypnosis will likely have experienced most of these symptoms, and without thinking they were paralyzed. On the other hand it actually is possible to get into a real paralyzed state via hypnosis, but it is very hard to achieve on your own.

[Mes Tarrant]

Thanks, Merlock.

[VetteSage]

Thank you to those of you that answered, and I'll just pretend people aren't arguing on the other part. As for the heaviness and crushing down, it was like neither one. My body didn't feel like it was heavy or being crushed down, it felt like it was being pulled down almost like the bed was pulling me down itself. Anyways, I'll try again tonight and see what happens, then I'll post it here as for what happens.

[Merlock]

"Noble knight"? I assure you, if the above happened face-to-face, in person, me beating you into the ground would hardly seem knightly. Being stoically calm means being apathetic. And, as you may have noticed, I didn't call for you to just be calm, I called for being "calm, caring and respectful", the latter of which require morals and emotion to uphold. Once again on-topic, I made the deduction that it seemed like sleep paralysis because of the "it was like I was being covered by a heavy blanket that kept me to the bed". So, VetteSage, were you literally not able to move no matter how hard you tried or was that just a feeling that you quickly shook off as you awakened yourself? I'm wondering because I've felt my share of various feelings including heaviness and such when falling asleep half-consciously sometimes. And then there's hypnagogic imagery. On the few occasions that I've experienced it consciously, I can't say it looked just like light burns on the underside of my eyes. It was more like abstract blue graphics, waves and such, moving about. Oh, and feeling sick...that and related sensations usually make me steer clear of WILDing. I mean, is it really worth feeling nausiated, dizzy and all such for such a period of time? Maybe that's just me with my personal fears but I'm just wondering...maybe all such sensations can be bypassed just like sleep paralysis isn't necessarily always there to experience when WILDing?

[Thor]

"Noble knight"? I assure you, if the above happened face-to-face, in person, me beating you into the ground would hardly seem knightly. So you're a violent criminal (incidentally, just like the knights were). Well, thanks for letting me know. If a little discussion on the web can make you threaten someone with physical violence, I think you should seek professional help.

[Merlock]

So you're a violent criminal (incidentally, just like the knights were). Well, thanks for letting me know. If a little discussion on the web can make you threaten someone with physical violence, I think you should seek professional help. On the contrary. If you don't have strong enough morals and ideals to stand up for them, no "professional help" will be of any use to you in the midst of the apathy gripping the world nowadays. But if you'd actually like to argue that apathy (no morals or actions) or hyporcisy (morals without actions) are justified in some twisted way, it's better to take this to private messages and/or Extended Discussion. Not that this topic should die. I'm still curious if anyone has WILDed without any negative sensations whatsoever. I've not read too many WILDing experiences myself.

[VetteSage]

Well, last night I tried again. It was kinda of halfway in the middle, in the sense that I wasn't paralyzed until I naturally fell asleep. I did the same thing last night, and this time it got to where sometimes the waves of darkness were so much that it felt like I was literally just... either asleep or like I was blind. I recall a feeling of feeling sick throughout most of this, so there's at least one common thing. My body was very very very numb though. My legs and arms were feeling non-existent, and my body was feeling just very numb, but I could sort of feel it because I was breathing. At some point in time my eyes became kinda tight, which happened at roughly the same time as I got a few twitches in a couple fingers and my jaw (more like something flicked my jaw, it was really odd) and I saw something that I think was a little dot of light that kept going on and off and there was a ringing in my ears. Eventually, I started feeling sick and wanted to pull myself out of it, not really worrying about it much since this is only my second attempt. When I first tried, it was almost like when your arm or leg goes asleep in the sense that I knew I was telling myself to move my arms (which was the first thing I tried to move), but it just wasn't happening. I can't really explain the feeling, it wasn't like they were pinned down and I was feeling resistance, it was just that it was almost like my brain was sending the signal and my arm was saying 'nope ain't happenin'. I don't recall the time frame again, but it took my quite a while before I recall being able to actually move. Again, it wasn't that I felt resistance when I tried to move them, it was just that... they didn't move. I don't know if that was just like a trick on the brain or what it was. The other thing that happened was that I felt exhausted after I was able to move again. I went to sleep normally after it, but I felt very exhausted like I had pushed something off of me and my muscles were achy, is the only way I can describe it. The only difference this time, is I don't recall any images at all. The darkness coming in was a lot longer and a lot more severe, but there were no images that I actually recall.

[Thor]

On the contrary. If you don't have strong enough morals and ideals to stand up for them, no "professional help" will be of any use to you in the midst of the apathy gripping the world nowadays. Threatening someone with physical injury (in your case repeatedly) is actually a criminal offense in most jurisdictions. That you are actually defending this behavior because it is the opposite of "apathy", and that you think it is a display of "morals", speak volumes about yourself. But if you'd actually like to argue that apathy (no morals or actions) or hyporcisy (morals without actions) are justified in some twisted way, it's better to take this to private messages and/or Extended Discussion. No, it is your way that is twisted, since you are actually saying that threatening someone with physical injury, and this for nothing more than a perceived "attitude" toward someone else in a web forum discussion, is completely justified.

[Bisch]

Not that this topic should die. I'm still curious if anyone has WILDed without any negative sensations whatsoever. I've not read too many WILDing experiences myself. I've WILDed a bunch of times and I've never felt any negative sensations. No SP, HI. Usually just alot of tingling, which feels pretty good.

[blakkin]

I've WILDed a bunch of times and I've never felt any negative sensations. No SP, HI. Usually just alot of tingling, which feels pretty good. I've only wilded once, but I had the same thing. No SP that I remember, just tingling relaxation and then an odd shifty-weird feeling while my eyes were closed that suddenly told me I was in a dream. I had to open them to start doing stuff, and I was still in my bed, just in a dream.

[VetteSage]

Ok, well last night I didn't try it cause I got home really late and just wanted to go to bed. But, when I went to sleep I remember dreaming. Of course you remember some dreams, but I remember thinking about something in the dream and doing something as though like I was awake, but the thing was that everything else just kinda was like a normal dream. Almost like when you watch a movie and you say "He should go into the other room and call his friend" or whatever, and then right as you say it he does the same thing... it was like that, but it felt like I was thinking about that part as opposed to just watching it like the rest of the dream. I also could have sworn that when I woke up that I got a pad and pen and wrote down what I was thinking and stuff cause I thought it was kinda strange... and now I'm sitting here looking at the pad... but there's no pen and the pad is completely blank... so I guess maybe I didn't end up writing it down? Question is, that part that it felt like that I described... is that what it's supposed to be like when you're lucid? Even if that wasn't lucidity even in a small part, is the idea supposed to be that you think of what you want to happen in the dream and it happens?