Thread: what part of your brain thinks?

Yup, you got it. For natural LDers this part of the brain is not fully shut down so they become lucid by themselves.

IMJ

Since realising you're dreaming involves reason and logic, clearly that part of the brain has to be activated to have a LD! Brodmann area 46 also seems to be highly relevant, and it's apparently one of the few areas normally deactivated during REM; it's responsible for attention and working memory. Without either, you'd lose any lucidity instantly.

"Hey I'm dream.... ooooh a pink elephant"

I seem to remember reading that an amino acid blend was actually able to reactivate a part of the brain involved in reasoning at certain concentrations, which is why it boosted the chances of an LD. Interesting stuff.


Edit: If you have a WILD though, then clearly parts of the brain are not deactivated.

As any modern college level psychology class will tell you, the brain is a complex organ of tissue and nerves and confusing gray matter -- not some nice color-coded diagram where specific parts of the brain are roped off and perform very specific functions. There are general centers of activity (logic center, pleasure center, etc.) but even these "centers" aren't very clearly defined. The brain is still very much a mystery, I'm afraid. Most people stick to the old tradition of color-coded diagrams, where everything just fits nicely together (it's nicer to think about that way, I suppose).

So, to answer your question, the entirety of your brain is thinking, all the time: your logic "center" (which is really a misnomer; I haven't met anyone yet who thinks completely logically) doesn't shut down when you fall asleep as much as it loses concentration... and then you lose track of it. I have no idea what happens in the brain when you become lucid in a dream xD

the entirety of your brain is thinking, all the time

Not only if that were true would this result in a seizure (as thinking would mean constant firing), but it also contradicts large amounts of MRI and PET scans which clearly show little or no neurological activity in different parts of the brain at different times.

It also ignores the fact that some parts of the brain are hard-wired and respond to certain stimuli only; an example is a vestigal part of the human brain which responds to light; not every part of the brain thinks. Thinking is a higher thought process which depends on many basic processes.

psychology class

Wouldn't that be a Biology class? Or Neurology?

Originally Posted by Photolysis

Wouldn't that be a Biology class? Or Neurology?

No he's correct. Intro level psychology, although you get more of it in a neuropsych class, they do skim the basics. In a gen bio class you don't even talk about the brain Of course it depends on the school, probably the professor and their interests/focus. But generally speaking, he's correct.

Whatever else I think is bad about the UK, apparently Biology features more about the brain than the US :p

I was taught the very basics of the brain and the major areas at 15 in my biology class. And this was not any specialised course, but something that everyone took.

I actually couldn't even tell you what they taught us in my highschool biology course, I was such a tragic student at the time Not something I'm proud to say as a major in college, but the truth nevertheless.

well my question comes about because they say that you must sleep. the brain must be shut down inorder to repair and re energize itself. So if you master the art of lucid dreaming and get to the point that you can do this every night for hours on end. Do you still get the same amount of repair? Is your brain going active in a time that it is suppose to be inactive?

Originally Posted by Photolysis

Thinking is a higher thought process which depends on many basic processes.

Well, yeah. Specifically speaking, my definition of "thought" is highly sentimental... I often reject hard science, as it offers the delusion that we have any idea about the reality of the universe...

Which is entirely beside the point xD

I suppose I shouldn't open my little mouth when I don't know anything about the subject. You see, the major colleges don't often allow squirrels to enroll (though I've found a few Community Colleges who don't mind).

Of course, if every nerve in your brain were constantly firing, you'd have something resembling an electric generator on your hands. Or in your skull, whichever. And the "hardwiring" you refer to is actually something I find very fascinating... I come across it a lot in my studies of animal behavior. Too much, in fact. Anyway, my point is, I'm sorry I said anything really. It was ten thirty at night when I typed that, so surely you'll forgive any factual oversight.

~tamias

The point is, referring to the process of thinking logically as a "logic center," and referring to lucidity as the "turning on" of that center is just shorthand. It is much easier to talk about the process of thinking as something concrete, and by monitoring (experimentally defined) logical thinking, MRIs have found that certain parts of the brain have more blood flow, which is an indicator of more activity. Does that prove that the increased activity is what produces the logic? No. The increased activity is only correlated, and one cannot base conclusions off of correlations (because some third party could be causing both events to occur).

That being said, in the case of non-WILD techniques, we don't know if the initial realization causes the "logic center activity" to increase, or if the "logic center" must be active before the realization. There is only a correlation. Based on my personal experiences in DILD, however, I think both outcomes are equally likely (depending on your effort in lucid dreaming at the time). Sometimes, first will come the initial spark in the dream that "turns on the logic center." I will become lucid based on a reality check. Once I become lucid, I suddenly notice all the other signs that it is a dream (I will notice that the text on the "Doomsday Billboard" is unreadable. I become lucid, and realize that there is no such thing as a "Doomsday Billboard" in real life.). Other times, I will be aware of the finer nonsense-details from the start of the dream (this seems to infer that my "logic center" remained active). I prepare for these dreams beforehand (WBTB/WILD). Both types of lucidity can attain the same quality once you get into good practice.

Originally Posted by Abra

Sometimes, first will come the initial spark in the dream that "turns on the logic center." I will become lucid based on a reality check. Once I become lucid, I suddenly notice all the other signs that it is a dream (I will notice that the text on the "Doomsday Billboard" is unreadable. I become lucid, and realize that there is no such thing as a "Doomsday Billboard" in real life.). Other times, I will be aware of the finer nonsense-details from the start of the dream (this seems to infer that my "logic center" remained active). I prepare for these dreams beforehand (WBTB/WILD). Both types of lucidity can attain the same quality once you get into good practice.

No to mention, sometimes you get those lucids where you realize it is a dream and that the text on the billboard is unreadable, but you don't even realize that there's no such thing as a doomsday billboard! If it was a matter of flipping a switch, surely such a thing would not happen. So on top of everything you've said, you've even got to account for the fact that it isn't a 0 or 1, + or -, black or white phenomenon!

Ahhhh brains are so cool!

And the "hardwiring" you refer to is actually something I find very fascinating... I come across it a lot in my studies of animal behavior. Too much, in fact.

Yeah, I learnt a bit about that when I did Biology at A level a few years ago. An interesting example was the behaviour of certain insects, which like a computer program, can get stuck in an infinite loop if you interfere with part of the "programming"; there's no capacity for boredom. I've heard that a lot of animals are subject to this effect.

It was ten thirty at night when I typed that, so surely you'll forgive any factual oversight.

I don't think people take offense at incorrect facts

Of course, people that don't know anything and insist they do when people far more knowledgeable explain why they are not is offensive, but obviously that doesn't apply here :p

MRIs have found that certain parts of the brain have more blood flow, which is an indicator of more activity. Does that prove that the increased activity is what produces the logic? No. The increased activity is only correlated, and one cannot base conclusions off of correlations (because some third party could be causing both events to occur).

A lot of information on what parts of the brain do is by studing those that have damage to various areas.

And all good science will aim to control things as much as possible. Obvious sometimes things are wrong, but neuroscientists are going to be well aware that mere correlation is not enough. Any professional scientist will be aware of this. To dismiss scientists as doing this errenously is insulting to all scientists, and the scientific method as a whole, and very patronising.

Do you still get the same amount of repair? Is your brain going active in a time that it is suppose to be inactive?

The brain is never inactive. Parts of the brain are inactive during sleep - the area that controls heartrate for instance, obviously continues working or you'd die! There is no reason to think that a few parts are turned off during REM sleep to repair those parts and nothing else, though sleep is still a mystery.