Thread: Ultrasound to induce Lucid Dreams?

This may seem like a ridiculously stupid question, but can i use an ultrasonic toothbrushes instead of having to buy a custom ultrasonic transducer alone.

The Ultrasonex Ultrasonic Toothbrush works at 1.6 MHz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ1IB7QY80c

Is there anything wrong with using a Ultrasonic Toothbrush vs a custom Ultrasonic Transducer?

Thanks

Well the main problems I see you facing are that you will be unable to control the directionality of the mechanical vibrations. Toothbrushes tend to be from side-to-side as opposed to longitudinal vibration. You will also have trouble accurately controling the frequency, since the toothbrush will have a proprietary circuit to interface with the transduction mechanism (which I'm unsure if it is piezoelectric or electromagnetic).

But you may be able to get something useful out of it. It seems like a useful cheap alternative. If you believe you can produce any results (whether they be negative or positive), I say why not, go for it.

Ok, I managed to find out that 0.5 Mhz seems to be the closest industry standard center frequency. This means that almost any such transducer (regardless of waveform bandwidth) will hit at least 0.6 mhz with 50% of power and in some cases can hit 0.7 mhz maybe with 75% of power.

It seems according to this research that shear waves work best:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18065841
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15058357

But I'm not sure do they need a certain type of transducer. I understand this to mean that shear and longitudal waves can come from the same source:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17941383

Shear and longitudinal waves in the maxilla bone were produced by adjusting the bone surface incident angle to 45 degrees and 0 degrees, respectively.

Some possible google words for finding parts

0.5 mhz
ultrasound
ultrasonic
transducer
PZT
piezoelectric
contact
shear wave

I found that the most affordable and easiest way to implement this experiemnt is with an Ultrasonic Massager

Heres an example

http://cgi.ebay.com/Portable-Profess...ayphotohosting


Power Source AC Adaptor (DC 24V/200mA)
Output Frequency 1.0 MHz +-10%
Type Non focusing
Pulse Width 5.4ms +-10%
Repetition Rate 150Hz +-10%
Waveform Pulse
Temporal Maximum Power 8W +-10%
Temporal maximum effective intensity 1.13W/cm2 +- 10%
Effective maximum temporal intensity/
Effective average effective intensity 1.13 / 0.65 = 1.738 +- 10%
ERA 7.06 cm2 +- 5%
BNR 1.74
Output Intensity Low 1.6W (0.11 W/cm2)
Medium 2.6W (0.24 W/cm2)
High 4.6W (0.47 W/cm2)
Duty Cycle Low 7% ,Med 15%, Hi 30%
Auto-time setting 30 minutes auto-off +-1%
Dimensions 172(L) x 54(W) x 42(H) mm
Weight of unit 120 g
Warranty 6 months

You can't say that before you have tried it and know that it works. We need to be responsible here because you never know if some kids start ordering these by the dozen and end up wrecking their brains.

It may very well work for general brain stimulation purposes even when it's pretty much off the mark for the more effective frequencies (0.5 should work much better than 1.0 even when there's not much difference in how close they are to 0.6-0.7 - I base this on a figure I saw in one of the above studies) However, we don't know if they use longitudal or shear waves, etc.

Because of the low power levels, it might very well be safe, if the studies are any indication (biggest power level used was 0.5 mW/cm2 which corresponds to the HIGH power level of that device).

Also this is non-focusing so it can't be used to stimulate certain part deep into the brain. Someone should find out what is the degree of the beam.

Also westonsci, I'm pretty sure that lucid dreaming is much more complicated matter than either having a part of the frontal cortex active or not.

And besides, you need to first have a version that can focus. In the end, if there was a certain mechanism to induce LD's, you'd need a helmet and a system that stimulates only key areas in a certain way with certain timing. That's way beyond. Don't hold your breath.

Right now Im just trying to prove that this concept works, I will need an assistant most likely my brother who will stand on the side of my bed and when he sees my eye lids flickering he will know that im dreaming. Then he should put the ultrasonic massages over my upper forehead an will see what happens.

Im not sure if this will work, but I have no doubt that the reason why where not lucid is because the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex is deactivated in NREM and fails to reactivate in REM.

Read this article/study that explains that the self-awareness experienced in waking and its loss in dreaming is the result of the deactivation of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex.

http://www.bostonneuropsa.org/PDF%20...ET_AL.__02.pdf

Heres some of the important points in the article.

"The differences between the self-awareness experienced in waking and its diminution in dreaming can be explained by deactivation of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex during REM sleep. Here,we propose that this deactivation results from a direct inhibition of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortical neurons by acetylcholine, the release of which is enhanced during REM sleep."

Page 1

------------------------

"As a consequence of deactivation of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (DLPFC) during sleep, executive functions such as self-consciousness and analytical thought are severely impaired in NREM sleep and are weak in REM sleep."

Page 1

------------

"In summary, the changes associated with the transition from waking to NREM sleep might be ascribed to a globally reduced level of activity. This is
followed by the selective reactivation of the most posterior and medial prefrontal areas and continued deactivation of anterior and lateral portions at the onset of REM sleep."

Page 1

------------------

"The transition from waking to NREM is characterized by frontal deactivation as reported in positron emission tomography (PET) studies using either H2[15O] [15,16] or 18F deoxyglucose (18FDG) [17] and quantitative EEG studies[18–20]. Deactivation increases with the deepening of NREM sleep [14] and is maintained in the transition from NREM to REM sleep [21]. However, with the onset of REM sleep, portions of the ventromedial, limbic-related prefrontal cortex and closely associated medial subcortex and cortex are reactivated, sometimes to levels that exceed those of waking [22].

For example, in a H2[15O] PET study that specifically compares REM with NREM sleep, the prefrontal areas reactivated during REM include anterior cingulate (BA 32), caudal orbital and medial prefrontal (BA 10) cortices [13], but the DLPFC remained deactivated. Nofzinger et al. [23] have termed this frontal area the ‘anterior paralimbic REM activation area’ with the core structures being subgenual and pregenual anterior cingulate cortex, the amygdala and the insula."

Page 2

------------------

"At the beginning of the REM phase, however, activation of the acetylcholine system, starting from the pontine reticular formation, provokes a general increase in cortical activity [26]. We propose that the DLPFC remains relatively deactivated in REM sleep because it is directly inhibited by acetylcholine. Findings supporting this include a functional magnetic resonance study showing that acetylcholine-mediated enhancement
increased the activity of extrastriate cortex but decreased the activity of the anterior prefrontal cortex [27].

Page 5

-----------------

"Taken together, these results indicate that the forebrain activation and synthesis processes that underlie dreaming, with selective activation
of the subcortical and cortical limbic structures (which mediate emotion) and relative inactivation of the DLPFC (which mediates directed thought), are very different from those during waking"

Page 5

-----------

"In this review, we have advanced the idea that the deactivation of the prefrontal cortex during REM sleep is the result of direct acetylcholine-mediated inhibition of this cortical region. According to our proposal, cholinergic pathways are responsible for the reactivation in REM sleep of the prefrontal limbic cortex, but not of the DLPFC, thus depriving dream mentation of logical reasoning capacities."

Page 6

Originally Posted by visor

Also this is non-focusing so it can't be used to stimulate certain part deep into the brain. Someone should find out what is the degree of the beam.

The dorsolateral prefrontal cortex is situated in the dorsal anterior portions of the prefrontal cortex is very close to the skull. Heres some pictures.



















Yellow = Dorsolateral prefrontal cortex

Heres a cross section of a human skull so that we can see where we should apply the ultrasound so that we can activate the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex

Heres some pictures of a popular Ultrasonic Massagers the US-1000 2nd Edition Portable Ultrasound. However according to some websites its FDA regulated, so can an average person buy it? or do i need a prescription to buy it? You can find it on Ebay for around $100

The problem is im attending college right now so im strapped for cash, so now i really need to get a job









Power Source: AC Adaptor (DC 24V/200mA)
Output Frequency: 1.0 MHz +-10%
Type: Non focusing
Pulse Width: 5.4ms +-10%
Repetition Rate: 150Hz +-10%
Waveform: Pulse
Temporal Maximum Power: 8W +-10%
Temporal maximum effective intensity: 1.13W/cm2 +- 10%
Effective maximum temporal intensity/Effective average effective intensity: 1.13 / 0.65 = 1.738 +- 10%
ERA: 7.06 cm2 +- 5%
BNR: 1.74
Output Intensity: Low 1.6W (0.11 W/cm2)
Medium 2.6W (0.24 W/cm2)
High 4.6W (0.47 W/cm2)
Duty Cycle: Low 7% ,Med 15%, Hi 30%
Auto-time setting: 30 minutes auto-off +-1%
Dimensions: 172(L) x 54(W) x 42(H) mm
Weight of unit: 120 g
Warranty: 6 months

First, did you check out my eBay deal? That's an ebay number you see... YOu can get a 1 mhz gadget with $30 + $5 shipping. Surely you can afford that. The seller doesn't offer specifications like this US1000 model. But I doubt if those are exactly optimal either so you might just as well go with the cheapest.

Regarding the study you quoted, let me tell you that I had a 6 month phase during which I ate and drank abstracts. But because I was too convinced I would find what I look for, I went on and on despite no results.

I presume there are no studies relating lucid dreaming to the activity of DLPFC. EVEN IF THERE WERE, it would still be possible that you could never use ultrasound exactly the right way to active it. And that is if you had a system that can focus. You don't. I don't know how to do it. It may not be difficult, but just using the US1000 won't do it. It will almost certainly activate other areas as well, probably too much.

edit: ok, it seems that the ebay number I referred to never posted here. So here it is again

http://cgi.ebay.com/Ultrasonic-Facia...3A1|240%3A1318

$31 including shipping. You'll have to buy the ultrasound gel somewhere else.

I wouldn't jump the boat and buy this immediately.

You would still have to purchase/build a function generator to drive the transducer, and have the knowledge to to take apart and modify the proprietary mechanisms in the massager to allow it to interface with the function generator. You also will need to figure out the power output of this transducer; it won't be enough just to know the frequency or voltage. The decibel output will be important in mirroring the study.

Be careful; overexposure to higher-energy ultrasound can damage, burn, or even scar tissue below the surface.

Replicating the study is one thing, brain cells getting stimulation is another. 1 mhz stimulation might have some effects and I'm interested in that.

The highest amount of energy /cm2 in these have been 0.9 W/cm2 that I've seen. 0.5W/cm2 has been proven to have no immediate negative effects to tissue. Usually every machine has a mode that provides less than that.

The worst thing that can happen, I believe (based on experimenting with infrared on my brain for the last 4 years with no side effects) that instead of stimulation, you will get the opposite, slowing down of potentials. By the time a person with a relatively stable mind notices what's going on, they stop and the brain will probably jump back after a while. So for an experiment, it should be safe. A lot safer than doing psychedelics for example.

This of course means that the time used per day is reasonable. Probably along the lines of minutes, not hours a day.

re: side effects

I did have a period of 4-6 months were I experienced great mood shifts and childhood flashbacks and associated feelings (like rage or fear or sadness). If you are in the midst of something important in the external world, like upcoming exams or a demanding job where you can't take sick leave, proceed extra carefully.

The same may happen with ultrasound. At least in my case the end result was very positive. It helped with Asperger's syndrome, depression and anxiety. It changed me completely as a person. I still have my problems but much less : )

The US1000 Westonsci uses pulse width of 5.4 ms. That is equal to 5400 microseconds. The longest pulse used in the study was 227 microseconds. So there's an enormous difference.

Also 150 hz pulse rate was not used in the study. Most experiments with pulsing parameters used a sweeping pulse rate. 2/3 of the experiments that used 500 mV (large square wave) and a fixed pulse rate, failed. That doesn't mean 150 hz can't work.

I agree that the Ultrasonic massager is very different from the actual setup they used in the study, but I believe that theres a good chance of actually working.

From all the techniques and methods to induce lucidity on the web, so far Ive yet to see anyone try a method like this.

I believe that this is either gonna be a complete success or a total failure.

Originally Posted by visor

The US1000 Westonsci uses pulse width of 5.4 ms. That is equal to 5400 microseconds. The longest pulse used in the study was 227 microseconds. So there's an enormous difference.

Also 150 hz pulse rate was not used in the study. Most experiments with pulsing parameters used a sweeping pulse rate. 2/3 of the experiments that used 500 mV (large square wave) and a fixed pulse rate, failed. That doesn't mean 150 hz can't work.

They also used a pulse length of 74.5 millisecond with positive results.

You can find the table of frequencys, pulse length, etc on the link below, just click "supporting Information" on the right side of the page, and than click on "Table S1"

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0003511

Even if it works, the reason is unlikely going to be what you thought of above.

FWIW, I had very vivid dreams for some time after beginning infrared. In them, when I witnessed some abuse towards myself, I was able to forgive those people or I saw people asking me for forgiveness and I had no trouble giving it. However, that lasted only for some time. Later I have had normal dreams.

Originally Posted by visor

The US1000 Westonsci uses pulse width of 5.4 ms. That is equal to 5400 microseconds. The longest pulse used in the study was 227 microseconds. So there's an enormous difference.

Also 150 hz pulse rate was not used in the study. Most experiments with pulsing parameters used a sweeping pulse rate. 2/3 of the experiments that used 500 mV (large square wave) and a fixed pulse rate, failed. That doesn't mean 150 hz can't work.

This pulse width is likely determined by the ultrasonic driver, which you could, in theory, replace with your own circuit. Just a thought.

Westonsci, yes they used 74.5 ms but I didn't include it because it was the only that also used pulse size of 100-150 mV and one of the rare ones that used 10 hz pulse rate.

At 1 mhz the parameters that work might be completely different. In effect, the data is useless at 1 mhz.

Ailos: I don't see how that could be practical. Change the driver, change the piezo plate, what is there left of the original? : ) Changing the plate could be the most feasible mod, if someone could find a 0.5 mhz one.

I checked the figure again and didn't realize that the figures are totally not in my favour. See this:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...e=figure&id=F9

The transmission of 1 mhz signal is 10^-1 compared to the 0.6 mhz signal. That means that it's just 10%.

Originally Posted by visor

I checked the figure again and didn't realize that the figures are totally not in my favour. See this:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...e=figure&id=F9

The transmission of 1 mhz signal is 10^-1 compared to the 0.6 mhz signal. That means that it's just 10%.

huh? im confused 10% of what?

Originally Posted by visor

I checked the figure again and didn't realize that the figures are totally not in my favour. See this:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...e=figure&id=F9

The transmission of 1 mhz signal is 10^-1 compared to the 0.6 mhz signal. That means that it's just 10%.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...&artid=1560343

I think I found the study where you got that table from. According to the study the optimal frequency for transcranial transmission and absorption is 0.6 MHz - 0.7MHz

So 1 MHz might be of the ball, but do you think it will completely stop the ultrasonic pulses or just make it harder to get through the skull?

If you consider that on a typical 1 mhz machine the highest transmitted power is 0.5W /cm2 and so 10% of that is just 50mW/cm2 and that the pulse width, repetition rate, everything, isn't (probably) anywhere near optimal, I would say that if you're lucky, you will get some effects from it.

But I'm going for the 0.5 Mhz. Even with that, it's a gamble. But since you're short on cash, wait till I tell if it works.

The cheapest I could find one is here: $148 + shipping.

http://www.maxnature.com/ulth.html

I really dislike selling stuff on ebay or elsewhere, I really hope it works.

Originally Posted by visor

I really hope it works.

If it does, you guys could be onto something big. Maybe they'll post it on some scientific journal or something.