Thread: Is it possible to enter an LD outside of a REM cycle?

I don't think that is possible, but if you find a way, please tell us! That would be the holy grail of lucidity! (Except for an instant foolproof WILD that requires no random awakenings)

Hi Chris,

that's a prettty good question that I thought I knew, until it was pointed out to me that we (apparently) seem to dream in other cycles of sleep, not just during REM. The dreams are, however, not easily remembered at all (and probably nowhere near as intense or linear).

So, in my opinion, probably not. HOWEVER....

I would suspect that if you had good training in meditation - the kind which you can control your brainwave frequency pretty moderately, you should be able to have and experience very similar to LDing, if not LDing itself.

Any chance of writing a tutorial on it?

Originally Posted by Ryuinfinity

I don't think that is possible, but if you find a way, please tell us! That would be the holy grail of lucidity! (Except for an instant foolproof WILD that requires no random awakenings)

Well, I take that as a chalenge. it is for me thhe goal of my LD practice. DILD is fun, WAILD (WakeAnytimeInducedLD) would be devine.

Ok, lets consider this a project started... I'll use any technique I know ranging from hypnosis to meditation and otherwise... If anyone wishes to join me, tell me and we'll team up.

Lets look for that holy grail for yours...


- Chris

It will be good practice, but don't get frustrated if you can't get the results you are hoping for. It is more like entering a deep trance than entering a lucid dream. In fact, I've always believed the main difference between deep trance meditation and lucid dreaming is the timing.

I agree with Tornado Joe. You can WILD into NREM dreams, but they are nothing like typical lucid dreams. It is a very weird limbo state. In the Tibetan tradition, you train to hold your awareness throughout the entire night. You stay aware as you slip into and out of REM dreams, NREM dreams, and nothingness. You may want to read up on some Tibetan Dream Yoga excercises.

I can always tell when I end up in this place. Everything goes normal during my WILD, then I just end up in a calm void. It feels like I'm stuck, and just can't enter a dream. Sometimes it is accompanied by a weird loss of ego, or loss of localized consciousness. It is an amazing state in its own right, and something that is the main goal of many types of meditation. You could say it is the base of some entire religions.

But that's just, like, my opinion, man

All of the claims that NREM sleep is less vivid or about certain things seem to be inaccurate, as the research I've managed to come across all seem to have different ideas- some say that NREM is less vivid, others say just-as-if-not-more vivid, while some say NREM is about daily drudgery while others say NREM is just as fantastical as REM, some say NREM is more 'abstract', while others say it is identical to REM in 'form'... Unless the individual subjects themselves have their own different types of NREM (ex: in John NREM will not be vivid and will be 'realistic', while Jane will have highly vivid and fantastic NREM) what I've essentially taken away from it is that there are no strict rules and that the average dreamer is not going to be able to tell NREM from REM dreams because the experiences, on average, seem to be the same.

Yes, you can dream in NREM.
Yes, you can lucid dream in NREM.
Both of these have evidence supporting them, you can easily find articles on the subject.

You may have trouble WILDing straight into an NREM period. I am not an accomplished WILDer in the slightest, but from the literature I've read as well as the personal accounts in DV, it is POSSIBLE. However, since it is the very beginning of your sleep cycle, you may have trouble doing it and it's probably not recommended for those who are not adept at WILDs. It is possible, though.

Hmm, last night convinced me this is sooo possible. I am not really an adept WILD'er (only succeeded once...), but when I was goin to sleep last night I nearly succeeded in initiating a dream.
I started by lying stil for some time waiting for my body to shut down, as it started to do so I "grabbed" the first piece of imagery that flashed by and started to develop it. After a minute of so it started to get that "dreamy feeling" and I nearly got it tangible enough to step into.

Howevery my body wss becoming a pain in the ass by starting to tinkle like hell (especially my leggs and feet) so snapped out.

I tried again and supprisingly fast got into the same situation, this time I noticed that when I started thinking "hey I'm doing it!" the dream feeling left as a response to my concious interfearence...

Does anyone know the cause of a tickeling feeling all over your leggs when you attempt anything near WILD or WAILD? i don't feel this when I go to regular sleep...

- Chris

Does anyone know the cause of a tickeling feeling all over your leggs when you attempt anything near WILD or WAILD?

That should be the numbness caused by the sleep pralysis process I think. It it usually isn't limited to just your legs. In my first SP experience (before I even know what SP was) I was convinced that I was somehow being electricuted in my bed - I had this tingly feeling all over my body and I couldn't move or even scream.

I think it's possible, but it's not possible to know either way because you wouldn't remember it.

It is possible. I know this from experience. It was over in a second but I knew I was dreaming nevertheless. They won't be nearly as vivid and won't be remembered unless you get up every hour or so.

The tingling/tickling feeling from WILDing means your body is shutting down. Don't move and you are almost there, for me at least. Oh I noticed you said before you went to bed. Good job not many can pull that off

Originally Posted by Tornado Joe

That should be the numbness caused by the sleep pralysis process I think. It it usually isn't limited to just your legs. In my first SP experience (before I even know what SP was) I was convinced that I was somehow being electricuted in my bed - I had this tingly feeling all over my body and I couldn't move or even scream.

Hmm, the feeling doesn't feel like numbness but I will try to stand it for some minutes tonight. I am able to move however... If SP kicks in, is it an easier base to start an LD or otherwise enter altered mental states? Any experience anyone?

Oh and guys, although I love experimenting on my own, is there anyone who could join me in doing the impossible? It would be fun and educative to have two different perceptions on this experiment...

- Chris

Originally Posted by ChrisDeemian

Hmm, the feeling doesn't feel like numbness but I will try to stand it for some minutes tonight. I am able to move however... If SP kicks in, is it an easier base to start an LD or otherwise enter altered mental states? Any experience anyone?

Oh and guys, although I love experimenting on my own, is there anyone who could join me in doing the impossible? It would be fun and educative to have two different perceptions on this experiment...

- Chris

When the feeling you don't like happens try visualizing. That helps take my mind off it. Last time I pictured myself rolling out of my body and I got some crazy HI and started me LD.

I managed to do it once. The funny thing is that was the first lucid dream I ever had since I learned about lucid dreaming. And the chance that it'll work is a lot bigger if you're very sleepy before going to bed.

About the lucid dream I had, it lasted for about 5-10 mins.

Originally Posted by ChrisD

Hmm, the feeling doesn't feel like numbness but I will try to stand it for some minutes tonight.

Well mabybe 'numbness' isn't the exact word - but it's sort of like that feeling you get when your leg 'falls asleep' from sitting too long or similar. I'm not a physician or anything, but I imagine the oncoming of SP sensation is the nerves in the body going into the shut down mode.

I am able to move however... If SP kicks in, is it an easier base to start an LD or otherwise enter altered mental states?

You're able to move because you probably have not yet completed the process. CAUTION: You will, however, stop the process if you get too excited - rasing your brainwave frequency and becoming alert. If SP kicks in, the answer is 'yes', it IS easier to kick into an LD from this state. This is what a WILD is. It takes practice, but there is a delicate balance between trying to stay alert enough to keep your consciousness from slipping into a non-lucid dream, and staying alert enough to bring your awareness INTO a dream with you (lucidity).
But this veers off your original question.

A couple nights ago I had a sucessful WILD right when I was going to bed but I believe the reason that it was possible, was that I had about a 2 hour nap at around 6:00pm. I think because of this nap, I may have actually hit a REM.. Or maybe a miracle? Try it sometime!

Chris, I'm in no way shape or form an experienced LD'er or anything of the sort but i've been trying (and failing might I add) the WILD before sleeping. I've almost gotten it quite a few times but my breathing gets all shallow and I start freaking out. I'm willing to join you in this experiment though. I will try to keep letting you know what goes down every day and record my findings on this site somewheres. Would you like to do that here, or in PM or create a new thread? Just let me know and good luck!

Originally Posted by Shift

All of the claims that NREM sleep is less vivid or about certain things seem to be inaccurate, as the research I've managed to come across all seem to have different ideas

My point was that your WILD can dump you into a state where there is no dream at all. No NREM dream, no REM dream, just sleep. You can maintain consciousness while asleep, even if you are not dreaming at all.

Oh yea ya ya, I totally agree with that. That weird limbo state! Grrr...

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

It will be good practice, but don't get frustrated if you can't get the results you are hoping for. It is more like entering a deep trance than entering a lucid dream. In fact, I've always believed the main difference between deep trance meditation and lucid dreaming is the timing.

I agree with Tornado Joe. You can WILD into NREM dreams, but they are nothing like typical lucid dreams. It is a very weird limbo state. In the Tibetan tradition, you train to hold your awareness throughout the entire night. You stay aware as you slip into and out of REM dreams, NREM dreams, and nothingness. You may want to read up on some Tibetan Dream Yoga excercises.

I can always tell when I end up in this place. Everything goes normal during my WILD, then I just end up in a calm void. It feels like I'm stuck, and just can't enter a dream. Sometimes it is accompanied by a weird loss of ego, or loss of localized consciousness. It is an amazing state in its own right, and something that is the main goal of many types of meditation. You could say it is the base of some entire religions.

But that's just, like, my opinion, man

I had a post about your last paragraph. I had no idea what this state and place was. You're not awake, but you're conscious and you're not dreaming.
I have found my answer, thanks!!

I thought SP always came before REM. If you're trying to WILD into NREM sleep, wouldn't SP be an indication that you're doing a regular WILD? Or is SP just the transition into any type of dream? If that's the case, then how will you know whether you're going into a REM LD or a NREM LD? I heard that when people sleepwalk it's during NREM sleep, because there's no SP so they can move.

Originally Posted by Hidden

I thought SP always came before REM. If you're trying to WILD into NREM sleep, wouldn't SP be an indication that you're doing a regular WILD? Or is SP just the transition into any type of dream? If that's the case, then how will you know whether you're going into a REM LD or a NREM LD? I heard that when people sleepwalk it's during NREM sleep, because there's no SP so they can move.

SP by definition is not REM. Sleep paralysis is the paralysis of your body outside of REM sleep. Particularly, when you are awake and trying to move and cannot. Sleep walking has nothing to do with REM atonia or its absence (Rem Behavioral Disorder).

Sleep paralysis is just the paralysis of your body outside of REM. If you are WILDing, you may have SP since you are awake and you may use it to WILD and enter a dream. SP isn't really an indicator of anything except that you just so happen to be in SP. Or that you are not in REM.
Unless you're monitoring your brainwaves or trusting a nova-dreamer, you really can't tell if you're in REM or not.

It´s possible to dream outside REM, but it´s not as vivid (or that´s what I´ve heard)

Originally Posted by Shift

SP by definition is not REM. Sleep paralysis is the paralysis of your body outside of REM sleep. Particularly, when you are awake and trying to move and cannot. Sleep walking has nothing to do with REM atonia or its absence (Rem Behavioral Disorder).

Sleep paralysis is just the paralysis of your body outside of REM. If you are WILDing, you may have SP since you are awake and you may use it to WILD and enter a dream. SP isn't really an indicator of anything except that you just so happen to be in SP. Or that you are not in REM.
Unless you're monitoring your brainwaves or trusting a nova-dreamer, you really can't tell if you're in REM or not.

How can sleepwalking have nothing to do with REM atonia? If you're in (having?) REM atonia, you're paralyzed. You can't be walking around while you're paralyzed. ...Or can you?

Are you always paralyzed during REM? If you dream during NREM, are you paralyzed then too?

Originally Posted by Hidden

How can sleepwalking have nothing to do with REM atonia? If you're in (having?) REM atonia, you're paralyzed. You can't be walking around while you're paralyzed. ...Or can you?

Are you always paralyzed during REM? If you dream during NREM, are you paralyzed then too?

Because sleepwalking isn't related to REM sleep. So you're not under REM atonia.

No, you are typically not paralyzed during NREM.