Thread: Is it possible to enter an LD outside of a REM cycle?

Originally Posted by moonshine

So a thought dream = thoughts. how is that different from what i said.

Well, thoughts that you have in your sleep. The point is that thought-like dreams are neither like daydreams or vivid dreams.

I'm fully aware that it wasn't a research paper.
But this does not neccesary mean its inaccurate.

Not necessarily, but the advantage of a research paper is that it's written in such a way that it's easy to check facts and methods.

Anyhow, any thoughts on the research paper I did link to?

I didn't understand how that paper was supposed to support your contention that NREM dreams are different from REM dreams.

As to their discussion of "atonia" this is not atonia in the sense of the complete blockade of nerve signals that occurs in the brainstem during REM sleep. What they are talking about is atonia in the sense of low muscle tone as measured by EMG. Granted if you have real atonia you will have very low muscle tone, but if you have very low muscle tone, that's not necessarily an indication of real atonia. (Didn't we have this discussion last year?)

Originally Posted by Thor

Well, thoughts that you have in your sleep. The point is that thought-like dreams are neither like daydreams or vivid dreams.

Can't take your definition of daydreams seriously I'm afraid.
They're not actually dreams in any way shape or form.
Its simply being lost in though, whether said thoughts include visualisations etc or not.

Originally Posted by Thor

I didn't understand how that paper was supposed to support your contention that NREM dreams are different from REM dreams.

I'm suggesting how it may be possible to have REM like dreams in whats technically NREM.
In that transition period. Because in that transition period you do have Atonia, which would prevent you acting out your dreams.
And if its a blurred line between having sleep paralysis and not, then there may well be an equally blurred line between
REM and NREM.


Which still leaves room for the "pure" NREM type dreams that I (and I'm others have experienced) when you feel like you've been awake all night with thoughts racing about in your head.

Originally Posted by Thor

As to their discussion of "atonia" this is not atonia in the sense of the complete blockade of nerve signals that occurs in the brainstem during REM sleep. What they are talking about is atonia in the sense of low muscle tone as measured by EMG. Granted if you have real atonia you will have very low muscle tone, but if you have very low muscle tone, that's not necessarily an indication of real atonia. (Didn't we have this discussion last year?)

REM atonia and muscle atonia are essentially one in the same.
The papers stating that the Atonia which takes place during REM sleep also ramps up and ramps down in NREM Sleep.
Thats how I read it anyway.

(Best not to go into last years discussion - wasn't that when you were denying Sleep Paralysis could actually be used in WILD attempts?)

Originally Posted by moonshine

Can't take your definition of daydreams seriously I'm afraid.
They're not actually dreams in any way shape or form.
Its simply being lost in though, whether said thoughts include visualisations etc or not.

I didn't say daydreams are dreams. I'm saying they can share a many features of dreams. They can be three-dimensional, involve any and all senses, and have complex storylines. The only feature I can see that makes a daydream different from a vivid dream is that a daydream is imagined, whereas a vivid dream is hallucinated.

But you're right that daydreams can also be simpler, like just being lost in thoughts.

I'm suggesting how it may be possible to have REM like dreams in whats technically NREM.
In that transition period. Because in that transition period you do have Atonia, which would prevent you acting out your dreams.
And if its a blurred line between having sleep paralysis and not, then there may well be an equally blurred line between
REM and NREM.

Well, that's conjecture, and it's contradicted by the fact that NREM dream reports indistinguishable from REM dream reports have been obtained as much as 25 minutes after the last REM episode. It is also contradicted by the fact that reports of vivid dreams have been obtained from subjects in deep sleep, and the characteristics of deep sleep are totally different from those of REM sleep, so it would be very hard to confuse them.

REM atonia and muscle atonia are essentially one in the same.
The papers stating that the Atonia which takes place during REM sleep also ramps up and ramps down in NREM Sleep.
Thats how I read it anyway.

(Best not to go into last years discussion - wasn't that when you were denying Sleep Paralysis could actually be used in WILD attempts?)

If you don't want a repeat of last years discussion it's not a good idea to insinuate that I said the opposite of what I actually did.

Originally Posted by Thor

I didn't say daydreams are dreams. I'm saying they can share a many features of dreams. They can be three-dimensional, involve any and all senses, and have complex storylines. The only feature I can see that makes a daydream different from a vivid dream is that a daydream is imagined, whereas a vivid dream is hallucinated.

But you're right that daydreams can also be simpler, like just being lost in thoughts.

They are three dimensional in so far as we are quite capable of imagining scenes in 3 dimensions. They have complex storylines if we imagine those story lines. Day dreams are manufactured thoughts. Imagination is a thought process. I for one would classify blankly gazing out of the window and imagining what your going to to when you get out of work as being lost in thought.

In any event, its all scemantics and hardly essential to the general discussions.

Originally Posted by Thor

Well, that's conjecture

Well Obviously!
But hey man, we're on the bleeding edge here. It would be a boring life indeed if you had to wait for someone to type up a nice report before we could throw ideas around.

Originally Posted by Thor

and it's contradicted by the fact that NREM dream reports indistinguishable from REM dream reports have been obtained as much as 25 minutes after the last REM episode.

Shouldn't that be "some" NREM reports are indistinguishable from REM dreams.
By the same token "some" NREM reports are indistinguishable from thinking.

I've offered my thoughts on why this might be the case.
It therefore seems to me that this corroborates my theory rather than contradicts it.

Its going to be a while until we can fit this complex subject into a nice square box I suspect.

Originally Posted by Thor

If you don't want a repeat of last years discussion it's not a good idea to insinuate that I said the opposite of what I actually did.

What, last year when you kept repeating that you didn't believe people were entering SP to WILD, despite numerous posters (now including me) describing how they were succesful in doing just that?

BTW The attached article suggests that you can in fact be in Atonia prior to entering REM (didn't you say this wasn't the case?), which it seems to me supports the WILDers experiences.

My theory is shaping up nicely!