Thread: Can you train in LD?

Yah, because some how muscle memory works in dreams. How, i don't know?

Improving physical skills while not moving seems quite illogical to me, but it might be possible to compose a song (while playing an instrument) in a dream. So in my opinion, it's not true.

you can learns load of things that are both physical and with your mind

According to Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming, the nerual networks used to control the muscles are activated in exactly the same way as when doing it in the real world, even though the muscles themselves are out of action.

So for things like technique, yup LD can be used (again, only what I've read, I haven't began to LD yet so I haven't confirmed this for myself). It won't say strengthen muscles for running - that involves wear and tear of them, but you can perfect a technique that will then become automatic in the real world, such as fancy fingerwork while playing instruments, or a certain running technique...

This little excerpt was taken from Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming by Stephen LaBerge, and Howard Rheingold, pg 186.

While the idea of mental rehearsal as a way of refining motor skills was once a radical hypothesis, research in the area has now burgeoned into a rich interdisciplinary field. Studies have shown that new skills can be learned to some extent merely by thinking about performing them. Learning improves when mental and physical practice are combined.

How can merely imagining doing something help you to actually do it better? First of all remember the laboratory work done in Stanford showing that when people dream of performing an action, such as singing or engaging in sexual activity, their bodies and brains respond as if they were actually doing it, except their muscles remain paralyzed by the REM process. Apparently the neural impulses from the brain to the body are still active and quite similar, if not identical to these that would accompany the same acts in waking.

Edit: Erm, yeah...so pretty much what Bumblebee said.

Most of the literature seems to suggest that physical actions are trainable in dreams.

Well this would be a good chance to perfect my juggling skills haha

Now just to perfect LDing first

I remeber seeing a report once on a study about training. People who skipped their workout once a week, and just watched it on tape and imagined themselves doing it, had better results than people who actually worked out that extra day.

Yes you can practice other things in dreams. Believe it or not I learned to sing from mine. Since there are no physical constraints in dreams I can easily hear what I should sound like when singing--so I know exactly what to shoot for when I do it IRL, if that makes sense.

Originally Posted by Naiya

Yes you can practice other things in dreams. Believe it or not I learned to sing from mine. Since there are no physical constraints in dreams I can easily hear what I should sound like when singing--so I know exactly what to shoot for when I do it IRL, if that makes sense.

Wow, so is the point of practicing in dreams that it is easier in dreams so you can learn easily and get good at it IRL?

Originally Posted by bradysdreaming

Wow, so is the point of practicing in dreams that it is easier in dreams so you can learn easily and get good at it IRL?

Sort of. Assuming you are lucid, you could even subconsciously make it so easily on yourself that you really aren't doing much of anything, which of course wouldn't be of any real life benefit. But I can testify to the fact that if you let yourself be a little challenged in a dream when trying something physically possible, you'll do better at it in real life.

Originally Posted by bradysdreaming

Wow, so is the point of practicing in dreams that it is easier in dreams so you can learn easily and get good at it IRL?

Yeah, in my case that's how it worked.

Cool

Technically speaking yes, practically speaking no. Yes it's the same neural connections working but that doesn't necessarily mean you learn anything. Your dreams don't calculate physics in a way that will help you train for anything physical. That said, I have no doubt that dreams can boost your confidence in physical activity. From what I've heard half of sports is simply your attitude.

Originally Posted by SystemsLock

Technically speaking yes, practically speaking no. Yes it's the same neural connections working but that doesn't necessarily mean you learn anything. Your dreams don't calculate physics in a way that will help you train for anything physical. That said, I have no doubt that dreams can boost your confidence in physical activity. From what I've heard half of sports is simply your attitude.

Actually, the dreamworld is able to replicate physics pretty good. Remember how you had to learn how to fly? Gravity there for ya.

I agree with dreams being a handy place to practise skills, but if you don't already have a fairly good idea of what you're doing I'm not certain if you would benefit much.

In that way, I mean that someone who wanted to tightrope walk who managed in a dream would probably fall flat in real life fairly quickly, but I've found that if one wanted to practise regular situations (like a meeting or something similar with fairly well known personalities), practising in a dream can be fairly helpful.

Originally Posted by ThreeLetterSyndrom

Actually, the dreamworld is able to replicate physics pretty good. Remember how you had to learn how to fly? Gravity there for ya.

In dreams, the only physics you notice are the physics you are expecting to notice. So thus you can't train yourself to be prepared for something your not expecting.

Originally Posted by SystemsLock

Technically speaking yes, practically speaking no. Yes it's the same neural connections working but that doesn't necessarily mean you learn anything. Your dreams don't calculate physics in a way that will help you train for anything physical. That said, I have no doubt that dreams can boost your confidence in physical activity. From what I've heard half of sports is simply your attitude.

If your brain is doing exactly the same thing as it does when it's learning normally, then you are definitely learning, even if asleep.
As far as calculating physics goes, it's your subconscious that always does that, and isn't the subconscious even more dominant in dreams? I know that realistic physics often don't apply in dreams, but if you are lucid and decide that they should, why couldn't they?
Finally, learning doesn't always apply to a physical task. I haven't mastered lucid dreaming yet, but when I do, one of my first goals is to use them to practice french. I'm sure the language is all in my head by now, I just don't have a chance to speak it enough, and I'm convinced that even practising in dreams will help.

Originally Posted by Purebred

I have read somewhere, that if you train in LD (something like dancing, playing instruments), you will have same skills when woken up. Is it true?

Your brain will practice what you have learned during waking state. Simple as that. Doesn't matter if it's chess, music, or sex. I don't know if there's any difference between LD and non-LD "practice sessions." The brain 'll practice anyhow.

Personally I have found that with guitar practice, I can be stumped on a classical piece, feeling that I'm progressing nowhere. A day's rest can be the best thing, and I've found that my playing will come much more naturally given the proper hiatus. It's the resting brain that is helping me finish that piece. There is an anecdote in a Stephen LaBerge book that discusses a man who induced LDs to help him overcome musical performance anxiety. His first public concert was a huge success mostly because of his dream training. LD states are useful, I think, if only because the mind is totally uninhibited and allowed to pursue fears or taboos without consequence, and therefore have a helluva good time and/or a heckuva soul-examining journey.

But your question asks whether LD can replace the physical training. Not at all. It can complement the practice, just as acupuncture may assist other therapy.

The best dreamstate music and poetry that has come to me has been at the liminal state between waking and dreaming. Occasionally I've had full lines of poetry in my sleep, or music, but they've turned out to be as mediocre as drug-induced ideas (but nevertheless emotionally packed).

I guess in some cases this would work. If you are learning to play a song on the piano, if you have a stable enough dream, you could create a piano and play on it.

According to Robert Moss' book The History of Dreaming, Dmitri Mendeleev got his idea to organize the elements in the Periodic Table from a dream. So I would say that you can practice science or math problems in a dream, consciously or unconsciously, on top of creative stuff like performing or music.

Incidentally, I was in a study last year where we had to solve some pretty difficult problems in a lucid dream and we were required to get the help of a dream character. I wasn't told the results of the other participants, but I was able to get some very creative and useful results from it.

Originally Posted by Naiya

According to Robert Moss' book The History of Dreaming, Dmitri Mendeleev got his idea to organize the elements in the Periodic Table from a dream. So I would say that you can practice science or math problems in a dream, consciously or unconsciously, on top of creative stuff like performing or music.

Interesting. And apparently August Kekulé discovered the benzene structure in a dream. Stephen LaBerge references this in his book Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming.

Originally Posted by Naiya

Incidentally, I was in a study last year where we had to solve some pretty difficult problems in a lucid dream and we were required to get the help of a dream character. I wasn't told the results of the other participants, but I was able to get some very creative and useful results from it.

I'd love to take part in such a study. Could you divulge some of your "useful results"?

Similar to what LaBerge mentions... several of the books that I have on the human brain mention a study in which athletes were able to increase muscle size and strength by visualizing a weight lifting routine. The group that used only visualization was compared to a group that actually did the routine. If I remember correctly, the visualization group had something like a 20% gain in strength and size in comparison to the group that actually did the routine. Amazing that there was any gain at all! My hunch is that any type of visualization or LD training will improve a given task or skill. I have done some visualization work in the past and LDs are on a totally different level in terms of vividness and the sense of actually doing the task. I can only imagine that it would be a worthwhile venture to practice or train in an LD.