The Art of Dreaming (advanced)

[Logos]

This is a book by Castaneda I've read several times over with great interest over the last 5 years, and it contains some of the most provocative and frightening information about the high art of dream travel that I have yet to encounter. It is not for those that don't want ALL the knowledge available, and it is not for the faint of heart. It encompasses an area that I strongly believe, and that I feel is all but left entirely out of most LD discussion: the worlds that we create and experience ARE REAL. (I strongly advise that you find and read "The Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Indian Way of Knowledge" before tackling this, but if you're open enough, you should pick up pretty quick) The Art of Dreaming Good luck on your journeys, and safe travels. ~L

[Clyde Machine]

I knew that name Castaneda sounded familiar! I don't recall where I last saw of the Teachings of Don Juan, -- oh, wait! I saw information about it on a Wikipedia page. I don't recall if it was on that book or what, but I know I found it when I was reading about lucid dreams on 'Pedia. You say it's not for those who don't want ALL the knowledge available. I take that to mean there's a great deal of knowledge within the pages of that book, some that might be eye-opening to the point of being frightening to some?

[Logos]

"...eye-opening to the point of being frightening to some?" You have hit upon the crux of it, yes.

[J.D.]

Sounds tasty, I'm intrigued... What are these mind-blowing parts? Could you share a quick example?

[luke1]

i didnt read this book but ive heard it is about something like MILD

[Logos]

Actually, wiki has a decent summary of the contents: "The Art of Dreaming is said to describe the steps needed to master control and consciousness of dreams. The Toltecs of Don Juan Matus' lineage believed that there are seven barriers to awareness, which they termed the The Seven Gates of Dreaming. In The Art of Dreaming Castaneda describes extensively how a state called Total Awareness can be achieved by means of dreaming. According to Castaneda there are 7 Gates of Dreaming, or obstacles to awareness, which when overcome yield total awareness. Four of the Gates of Dreaming are discussed in The Art of Dreaming. What follows is not so much a technique in achieving lucidity, but rather the practical application of lucid dreaming. By acting a certain way while dreaming, one can cause psychosomatic changes in one's being, including an alternate way of dying. What follows is a point-form summary of the philosophy surrounding Toltec dreaming as a way of "Sorcery that is a return to Paradise". 1st Gate of Dreaming(stabilization of the dreaming body): Arrived at when one perceives one's hands in a dream. Solved when one is able to shift the focus from the hands to another dream object and return it to the hands, all repeated a few times. Crossed when one is able to induce a state of darkness and a feeling of increased weight while falling asleep.Location in the body - in the area at the base of the V formed by pulling the big and second toes of one foot to the sides. 2nd Gate of Dreaming (utilizing the dreaming body): Arrived at when one's dream objects start changing into something else. Solved when one is able to isolate a Scout and follow it to the realm of Inorganic Beings. Crossed when one is able to fall asleep without losing consciousness.It is also referred to the activity of dreaming together with other practitioners. Location in the body - in the inside area of the calf. 3rd Gate of Dreaming (traveling): Arrived at when one dreams of looking at oneself. Solved when the dreaming and physical bodies become one. Crossed when one is able to control the Dreaming Emissary.Location in the body - at the lowest part of the spinal column. 4th Gate of Dreaming (Seeing): Arrived at when one is able to perceive the energetic essence of every dream item. Solved when one falls asleep in a dream, in the same position in which one has gone to sleep. Crossed when one wakes up in this reality, located only not in the physical but in the energy body." Hope this helps! ~L

[Supernova]

"the activity of dreaming together with other practicioners" interesting.

[jeffd]

After I read it I tried one of the techniques in it while Lucid.I forget,but it might be the "twin bodies" technique or something...Anyway,you are to remember the position that your physical body is in ,while in bed presumably,and then lay down with your dream body the same way.It was supposed to be a powerful stabilizer or something but all it did for me was cause a scenery change. Any way ,it is a good book that gets you thinking about DCs for sure.According to the book,there are "inorganic beings" who are out to steal your awareness.If you grant that the LD space is a shared one with other native inhabitants,I do think it's possible that beings there would need to consciously interact with you for energy.Instead of chemical-potential energy from food or kinetic molecular energy,consciousness-information itself could be their food[as well as the dream body's?].These beings were very tricky and tried to tempt Carlos to stay there. Another interesting concept in the book was the "dream emissary".He is a all prevading presence/voice that interacts with Carlos while he "dreams".I believe this voice carried over into his "waking life" too. I just read above in Logo's post about the 4th gate of dreaming.If I remember,the technique is simply to point at the object in question to percieve it's "energetic essence."

[Darkmatters]

I'm reading my way through the Castaneda books, just started on #5 The Second Ring of Power. I agree, they're excellent, and each of them deals to some extent with LDing. Highly recommended.

[conisag]

whats the exact concept? So i should stop killing people in my dreams straight away?

[MasterMind]

If you belive it's real it becomes real well not really, it just seems real. But if your lucid dream is very vivid, like the real life, would you really dare to kill someone then ?

[conisag]

If you belive it's real it becomes real well not really, it just seems real. But if your lucid dream is very vivid, like the real life, would you really dare to kill someone then ? Yes, and i have and it was frightening the first time, but it isnt anymore its fun...sometimes you really question what you just did if its so vivid your struggling to justify what you just did, but thats usually if you kill someone an then make a plea just like a real human "oh please god no dont hurt me" etc.. but still if you just flew with them to the top of a roof then you know your dreaming and killing them is usually fun...like throwing them off a building. I have woken up feeling quite bad sometimes, altho its rarer than ever i feel bad lol

[changed]

By acting a certain way while dreaming, one can cause psychosomatic changes in one's being, including an alternate way of dying I never thought of Lucid dreaming changing your future but i guess it is possible. But it ain't going to change your future anymore than randomly deciding to wash your hands. And why would it be that big of a deal anyway because our actions shape our future blindly and there is nothing you can do about it.

[J.D.]

Sounds a bit too mystical for me lol I'll stick with LaBerge for now.

[MisterHyde]

These beings were very tricky and tried to tempt Carlos to stay there. Another interesting concept in the book was the "dream emissary".He is a all prevading presence/voice that interacts with Carlos while he "dreams".I believe this voice carried over into his "waking life" too. I just read above in Logo's post about the 4th gate of dreaming.If I remember,the technique is simply to point at the object in question to percieve it's "energetic essence." I've had these experiences too. I was exploring a city in an LD with a very beautiful woman and was woken by my girlfriend, but I kept slipping back into sleep, back to the city and back to the woman who tried to persuade me to stay. And I have had a lot of experiences with dream guides, including a couple of experiences where for about a minute or so I could still hear the dream guide whilst awake. Perhaps some kind of waking dream crossed with sleep walking? And as for pointing and perceiving objects in dreams, I've been able to do that for a long time. Except I can now just look at something, wonder what it is and get a kind of "history" of what it is. For a long time I have believed that LDing is something more than regular dreaming. In LDs I can touch, taste, smell, hear and feel the world around me just as well as in waking life - a concept which from brief conversations I've had with other people doesn't appear to be a part of regular dreams.

[jeffd]

Misterhyde Check these out.The ideas here are very interesting and compatable with science,that is if you lean toward the belief that LDing is not just "all in your head". https://www.my-big-toe.com/catalognew/about.php Here's another http://www.dapla.org/books.htm

[conisag]

if some1 could get back to me please, is this a suggestion that my dc's are living breathing ppl? No chance with the shit they come out with!

[jeffd]

conisag xD I see where you're coming from now that I checked your thread. Lol,if there is intelligent life in a shared LD mental space ,they had better stay clear of lucidrage. I know it seems whacko but,I have encountered the deceased a few times while Lucid. Once specifically,a guy came out of nowhere in one of my Lucids and was getting in my face ,shouting at me with mumbo jumbo.I tried to punch him and tell him to F#^k off,but my hand went through him.After I woke ,I described him to my wife.She went to an old box and pulled out a picture of the same guy.He had been dead for several years,I never saw or heard of him before this.I swear this is true.I have no reason to make up some bullshit like this,I'm not even that creative of a story teller. So,my point is that since I never had any sensory input about this guy how could my brain come up with this in a Lucid Dream? It is logical for me to conclude that there is something "real" about LDs. Of course this is only personal,subjective proof.I don't expect everyone to believe me and it doesn't really matter. With that said,I still don't believe EVERYthing and everyone is "real" in my lucids.But I do think that we have a dreambody in a thought responsive environment.You can check it for yourself here http://www.dreaminglucid.com/challenges.html try the bonus challenge #6,dreamsight and see what happens. Who knows for sure ,maybe the "dreambody" experiences thoughtless ,creative projections from our own personal dream space ,all the way up to intelligent and super intelligent life in a more consensus dream space?

[Logos]

...is this a suggestion that my dc's are living breathing ppl? No chance with the shit they come out with! A very complicated issue, one that bears inspection. Since lucid dreams are at their cores directed by the individual, and therefore experienced from a mostly subjective vantage point, I would venture to say that the dream characters you encounter are, in a sense, projections of your own ego that you are dealing with, rather than singular entities. I have also long known that there is a need for you warriors. I myself have had lucid moments of battle, and though I am a peace-loving being that would rather think or speak my way out/into of a situation, I acknowledge the protection and strength that the great fighters represent. Another interesting concept in the book was the "dream emissary".He is a all prevading presence/voice that interacts with Carlos while he "dreams".I believe this voice carried over into his "waking life" too. I have had these "emissaries" with me for as long as I can remember; sort of like freely conscious extension of myself. During my waking life they can be incredibly annoying - sadly, mostly when I am working a meaningless job or doing something that I know hinders my growth - but during the dream it is my anchor, a voice that I recognize and can rely on for advice, warnings, or comfort in dark places. I've had these experiences too. I was exploring a city in an LD with a very beautiful woman and was woken by my girlfriend, but I kept slipping back into sleep, back to the city and back to the woman who tried to persuade me to stay. Thank you for sharing this; I have enjoyed these sort of 'continuance' dreams since childhood, although when I was younger (I was a very fearful child) they were mostly centered around fear-based scenarios. For example, one of my earliest lucid moments, around 4 or 5 years old: I am standing on a vibrant green hill, in a valley surrounded by high peaks. There is a white tree at it's pinnacle, the leaves are broad and reflecting the last sunset's rays. I can hear a dog barking, and I see a gaint silver wolf lumbering up the hill towards me. I climb the tree and yell for help as the sun goes down, but no one is close enough to hear me. The huge dog is jumping almost high enough to nip my feet, and I awaken. I would fall back to sleep and emerge straight back into this horrifying situation, over and over for hours. This happened months on end for years with similar types of situations: lava lions, pierced to a giant thorned tree, dwarves killing my mother, losing the woman I loved, falling for miles and hitting the ground in slow-motion; until one night when I was 11 or 12, I was slipping back into a falling dream and I was just so fed up with it that I said "I give up." In my dream I closed my eyes, and when I opened them; I was flying. This was my first lucid experience.