REM

[nordinloves]

Hello all, I got a question thats really starting to eat me xD How do you know if you are in your REM cycle? Because when i lie down i dont feel like i am in REM Ty in advance

[HansiElneff]

I would say intuition. It takes a fair lot of practice getting used to your sleep pattern, so well that you can start to predict when your REM periods start and end. If you search for "sleep cycle" on Google Images you should find something like this: cycles_of_sleep.jpg This is basically what your REM periods are like. But remember, not everyone has the same pattern! All humans are unique and you will need to spend time getting to know yourself

[Sivason]

Most of the long REM cycles start after 5.5 hrs sleep. They get longer after that. If your dreams have colorful clear visuals it is probably in REM. Just experiment with waking after various amounts of sleep and try to spot a time when you are waking from visually clear dreams.

[Sageous]

I got a question thats really starting to eat me xD How do you know if you are in your REM cycle? Because when i lie down i dont feel like i am in REM Here's a thought, Nordinloves: there is no need, ever, to concern yourself about REM. Period. I know that it is essentially sacrilege to say such a thing on these forums (I do that a lot; sometimes I think I practice my LD'ing on a different planet), but I believe that knowing exactly when your REM period is happening is unnecessary for successful LD'ing, and there may be a chance that knowing -- or at least needing to know -- might be an impediment to successful LD'ing. Here's why: There are two types of transitions to LD'ing: DILD and WILD: * If you are practicing DILD's, knowing when you are in REM is completely unnecessary, because you will always become lucid during a dream and, therefore, during REM... so enough said about that (I'm guessing you weren't talking about DILD in the OP anyway). * If you are practicing WILD's properly (i.e., by attempting them after a WBTB that occurred after at about 5 or more hours' sleep), then you will more than likely be doing your WILD's at or near a REM period. This is because, as Sivason noted and HansiElneff's chart nicely illustrates, after several hours of sleep, your REM periods are much longer and pretty much jammed right up against each other... even if during your WILD you should fall back to sleep into NREM, your wait for the dream will be very short, and made even shorter by your interest in being in a dream. In other words, if you are doing your WILD correctly, there is no need to concern yourself about your REM period; it'll be there! * Though it is a form of WILD, I feel I ought to mention DEILD as well: DEILD's show, by their very existence, why there is no need to concern yourself with REM. This is because you begin your DEILD when you realize that you are waking up from your dream, which implies that your REM period is coming to an end; and yet if your DEILD is successful you will go right back into a dream (and, therefore, a new REM period) with little or no time at all in NREM. Bring DEILD dream-chaining into the formula, and you find yourself potentially extending your REM period far beyond what might have been proscribed by your "normal" sleep cycle. DEILD sort of illustrates the fact that your will to dream, coupled with the presence of your waking-life self-awareness, will trump "scheduled" REM periods every time: You are in charge of your dreams, and not some preset sleep cycle schedule. So: If both routes to lucidity have no requirement for knowing when your REM periods occur, why bother knowing? I think, I guess obviously, that the concept of "catching REM" is way overrated on the forums, and possibly in the instructional books and videos. Though minding your REM periods seems like a clever thing to do -- perhaps since, for instance, all the EILD machines work (as they should) by signalling you when you are in REM (and therefore dreaming) -- doing so seems to me like a waste of time and focus that would be better spent preparing your mind to actually enter a LD. All that said, here are a couple more random thoughts: * There is no way to "feel" like you are in REM when you are awake, so don't worry about it. If anyone tells you they can feel the presence of their REM period before they are asleep, just smile and move on. * You never need to worry about whether or not you feel like you are in REM, even after you are asleep. What matters is knowing that you are dreaming, and staying focused on being in a dream. You are also able to be lucid -- and, yes, to dream -- during NREM, though the dream will likely be much simpler in form. And, if you are focused on your dream and not peripheral things like REM (and you did your WILD after several hours' sleep), you will very likely find yourself able to move very quickly from that moment of NREM to higher-quality REM period dreaming. Focus on the dream, and nothing else, and you'll be fine. * Here's a fun fact that I think it's worth sharing: REM is called "REM" because there is observable Rapid Eye Movement going on during the period. That movement is caused by your eyes following the action in the dream -- so if you are in REM, you are already dreaming. I don't know if LD'er's have ever been observed in this way, but I would guess that if you are lucid in late-stage NREM, your eyes will also move, so an observer might note that you are in REM at that point too (even, perhaps, if their EEG readouts disagree). In other words, if you are dreaming, you are in REM ,,, you've already caught it! tl;dr: Contrary to current LD'ing pop culture, I do not believe that there is any need to concern yourself with REM, much less feel its presence (which you can't do when you're awake, BTW). Catching REM is a given in DILD, because you are already in it by definition, and if you do your WILD's properly you will either be in REM, be very close to your next period, or will be able to prompt an early arrival of a REM period because of your conscious presence. In a correctly executed WILD, whether or not you are in the "REM period" segment of your sleep cycle when you lie down does not matter; it'll be there, or will be there shortly, along with your dream. LD'ing would be so much easier if things like catching REM were not even thought about, much less pursued.

[nordinloves]

Thank you guys, helped me alot , next step of me will be just experimenting what time is best.