The Economic Argument

[DrunkenArse]

xkcd: The Economic Argument The title text makes a great point: Not to be confused with 'making money selling this stuff to OTHER people who think it works", which corporate accountants and actuaries have zero problems with. Sometimes a picture really is worth a thousand words. Perhaps more in this case, it being a picture of words. What a brilliant point. Thoughts?

[Awakening]

Even if capitalism did something with quantum mechanics, its focused on making more materials that probably will end up on robots, lasers, new jets and weapons of mass destruction. That way will* be easier to control the entire world-- if not a part of the universe. ^ That was a joke... or not.

[Xei]

Hehe... good xkcd strip. I wouldn't expect Inner Sanctum regulars to comment on it though... they have a terrifying knack of wiping such things from their mind and never touching them again. For more information, read the book '1984'.

[nina]

Rubbish.

[Spartiate]

How so?

[Xei]

Just is.

[Spartiate]

Nuh-uh

[juroara]

Uhh....this argument doesn't exactly work. The underlying spiritual beliefs behind these things isn't taken into consideration. Who ever made this joke, has no real comprehension of the depth of any of these things. Take a remote viewer for example, whether or not you believe them. This is an individual who regularly meditates, and practices clearing their mind so they can see beyond their mind. This individual believes they can travel anywhere, if only they first clear their mind. Do you think this kind of individual is interested in money? Why? They can travel anywhere? Do you think this kind of individual believes that war can be ended through government or military involvement? Why? They believe the mind is the greatest tool! Why would they believe weapons or murdering is needed to end a war? Auras, homeopathy, remote prayer = health care cost reduction. You're absolutely right! Put a freaking check mark and do your research. Alternative medicine is huge and growing. And it boasts as an effective preventative treatment. (where have you been?) Its not that these things don't work. It's not that there is no positive research (there is!). There is a huge and biased stigma against alternative medicine, supported by BigPharma. If alternative medicine would become mainstream - BigPharma would die. BigPharma has a reason to confuse people about the truth of alternative medicine. Astrology/tarot = business planning. Dude seriously. Half check mark! I have never met a business person who wasn't superstitious to some degree. Business people have to be superstitious. Business people have to make several leaps of faith in their career. To trust in the unknown, to trust in their own power, to trust in fate. Seriously? Ever heard promotional tapes to help people make sales? However, lots of business people are still very much christian. And fundamentalism frowns on astrology and tarot as pagan crimes against God. Why astrology and tarot aren't more popular has less to do with what astrology and tarot believes in, and more to do with the fear of being condemned by God if you dwell in these pagan activities. Crystal energy = regular energy. Ever heard of quartz? Its in computers! Crystal energy is real and measurable. That's not in question. What is in question is if these frequencies that crystals resonate at have any effect on the human being. The belief of crystal energy is that it does, down to the frequency of our brain waves, down to the frequency of our dna (which is also crystalline) Curses, hexes= military. If you read your conspiracy theories, there is no entity more superstitious than the military! Granted conspiracy theories are true. Who can say otherwise? None of us knows what goes on behind doors. But......haven't you heard of military or government officials taken part in rituals that would make the angels cry? I have! Did these evil rituals ever take place? Who the hell knows! This is just a silly argument. That said I'm sure the military CURSES a lot.

[spockman]

Uhh....this argument doesn't exactly work. The underlying spiritual beliefs behind these things isn't taken into consideration. Who ever made this joke, has no real comprehension of the depth of any of these things. Take a remote viewer for example, whether or not you believe them. This is an individual who regularly meditates, and practices clearing their mind so they can see beyond their mind. This individual believes they can travel anywhere, if only they first clear their mind. Do you think this kind of individual is interested in money? Why? They can travel anywhere? Do you think this kind of individual believes that war can be ended through government or military involvement? Why? They believe the mind is the greatest tool! Why would they believe weapons or murdering is needed to end a war? Auras, homeopathy, remote prayer = health care cost reduction. You're absolutely right! Put a freaking check mark and do your research. Alternative medicine is huge and growing. And it boasts as an effective preventative treatment. (where have you been?) Its not that these things don't work. It's not that there is no positive research (there is!). There is a huge and biased stigma against alternative medicine, supported by BigPharma. If alternative medicine would become mainstream - BigPharma would die. BigPharma has a reason to confuse people about the truth of alternative medicine. Astrology/tarot = business planning. Dude seriously. Half check mark! I have never met a business person who wasn't superstitious to some degree. Business people have to be superstitious. Business people have to make several leaps of faith in their career. To trust in the unknown, to trust in their own power, to trust in fate. Seriously? Ever heard promotional tapes to help people make sales? However, lots of business people are still very much christian. And fundamentalism frowns on astrology and tarot as pagan crimes against God. Why astrology and tarot aren't more popular has less to do with what astrology and tarot believes in, and more to do with the fear of being condemned by God if you dwell in these pagan activities. Crystal energy = regular energy. Ever heard of quartz? Its in computers! Crystal energy is real and measurable. That's not in question. What is in question is if these frequencies that crystals resonate at have any effect on the human being. The belief of crystal energy is that it does, down to the frequency of our brain waves, down to the frequency of our dna (which is also crystalline) Curses, hexes= military. If you read your conspiracy theories, there is no entity more superstitious than the military! Granted conspiracy theories are true. Who can say otherwise? None of us knows what goes on behind doors. But......haven't you heard of military or government officials taken part in rituals that would make the angels cry? I have! Did these evil rituals ever take place? Who the hell knows! This is just a silly argument. That said I'm sure the military CURSES a lot. Have you met very many successful businessmen?

[DrunkenArse]

Hehe... good xkcd strip. I wouldn't expect Inner Sanctum regulars to comment on it though... they have a terrifying knack of wiping such things from their mind and never touching them again. For more information, read the book '1984'. Well played good sir. Oh and uhh...Awesome to have you as a moderator. Not that I'm around much to be moderated (or especially appreciate the effort) Take a remote viewer for example, whether or not you believe them. This is an individual who regularly meditates, and practices clearing their mind so they can see beyond their mind. This individual believes they can travel anywhere, if only they first clear their mind. Do you think this kind of individual is interested in money? Probably. The new age movement seems to be riddled with "law of attraction" type stuff. It's really all about "How can I make money?" It's a lot like how the judeo-christian-islamic movement often reduces to a) poor people asking god for money. b) rich people asking for money on behalf of god. Like it or not, money is the representation of energy that our culture uses as the default. Every sane person is interested in money. I consider myself (and am considered by those that know me) to be mostly insane so if you happen to be in the same boat, you're in good company. Why? They can travel anywhere? Do you think this kind of individual believes that war can be ended through government or military involvement? Why? They believe the mind is the greatest tool! Why would they believe weapons or murdering is needed to end a war? Is that what that whole astral jumping quantum projection alternate universe thing that was getting advertised on this site was about? I thought it was about making money Auras, homeopathy, remote prayer = health care cost reduction. You're absolutely right! Put a freaking check mark and do your research. Alternative medicine is huge and growing. And it boasts as an effective preventative treatment. (where have you been?) Its not that these things don't work. It's not that there is no positive research (there is!). There is a huge and biased stigma against alternative medicine, supported by BigPharma. You are jumping from three very specific classes to the more general "alternative medicine." I would be far more inclined to trust (alternative) research on proper diet (nuts, berries, dark leafy greens, fowl, fish, roots, etc.) that is informed by an understanding of our evolutionary path than I would be to trust the three things you've listed so far. I'm honestly somewhat ambivalent to the whole auras and remote prayer thing (as long as they are not used as primary healing mechanism) but homeopathy is an insidious scam: xkcd: Dilution. Also, with the exception of acupuncture, I'm not aware of any positive research. Astrology/tarot = business planning. Dude seriously. Half check mark! I have never met a business person who wasn't superstitious to some degree. Business people have to be superstitious. Business people have to make several leaps of faith in their career. To trust in the unknown, to trust in their own power, to trust in fate. Seriously? Ever heard promotional tapes to help people make sales? Don't even get me started on those promotional tape. There's this particularly pernicious thing called "Electromagnet Pulse Therapy" that I'm hating on at the moment. I can't find any links for it though. That being said, I have never met a good business person that needed to listen to promotional tapes. It's mostly the ones that are strapped for cash. Crystal energy = regular energy. Ever heard of quartz? Its in computers! Crystal energy is real and measurable. That's not in question. What is in question is if these frequencies that crystals resonate at have any effect on the human being. The belief of crystal energy is that it does, down to the frequency of our brain waves, down to the frequency of our dna (which is also crystalline) Piezoelectricity requires more energy to produce than is produced. This property of quartz is usually used in the opposite direction, that is a regular electric charge produces regular oscillations which is useful for clocks. It's not (generally) useful as a source of energy. Curses, hexes= military. If you read your conspiracy theories, there is no entity more superstitious than the military! Granted conspiracy theories are true. Who can say otherwise? None of us knows what goes on behind doors. I know Hitler was reputedly mad into the occult. The nazi swastika is just a reversed symbol that occurred in many contexts around the world. That said I'm sure the military CURSES a lot. DROP YOUR COCKS AND GRAB YOUR SOCKS! I've always thought it would be fun to be a drill sargent. I just read starship troopers a few months ago. Great read.

[nina]

How so? The whole premise of the joke is so ridiculously tailored to discredit every psychic phenomena that it fails entirely at creating any logical argument. It says, "If it worked, companies would be using it to make a killing in..." Many of these things do indeed "work" and there is plenty of evidence to support that...but the problem is that there is no consistency. The comic should have said, "If it worked 100% of the time, without fail, and in a consistent manner, companies would be using it to make a killing in..." Well no shit sherlock! The government, military, and big business aren't going to utilize something until it has been proven effective on a consistent basis and accepted by general population. So, obviously world leaders aren't sitting around getting a tarot card reading before making any major decisions. Could you imagine what the world would be like if all of those phenomena actually "worked" in the sense that the comic suggests? There would be no mystery left in the world, no free will, everything would be predetermined. Sounds like an awful world to live in if you ask me. So I'm glad that such things only "work" at a small enough scale so as not to be raped by government and big business. I called it rubbish because the comic is implying that such things do not exist, because if they did, then they would be exploited to the fullest extent...which is a logical fallacy and poorly executed comic imho.

[juroara]

Is that what that whole astral jumping quantum projection alternate universe thing that was getting advertised on this site was about? I thought it was about making money You're absolutely right about the money thing. The Secret? That was about money. But I look at it this way. There are lots of books on lucid dreaming, books created to make money. Does this represent the lucid community? No. Compare the number of people interested in lucid dreaming (just look at our active forum community) to the number of people who create lucid dreaming books for profit. There's a huge difference!! The vast majority of people interested in lucid dreaming aren't doing it for money. And the vast majority of people interested in astral projection (or remote viewing which is VERY similar) aren't doing it for money. Both groups by large, or doing it for personal enjoyment. And both groups of people also like to keep their interests private, and only share it with like minded people. In other words, just as lots of lucid dreamers hide their hobby from their parents, so do so-called remote viewers keep their interest in remote-viewing private. We have to be careful not to judge an interest by the few who want to be public money making figures. Those people are just WEIRD! Now, there are a lot of people using the LOA for money. Well, go figure, the economy is crashing on us! But a lot of people are also using the LOA to bring happy relationships and more pleasant experiences. You are jumping from three very specific classes to the more general "alternative medicine." I would be far more inclined to trust (alternative) research on proper diet (nuts, berries, dark leafy greens, fowl, fish, roots, etc.) that is informed by an understanding of our evolutionary path than I would be to trust the three things you've listed so far. I'm honestly somewhat ambivalent to the whole auras and remote prayer thing (as long as they are not used as primary healing mechanism) but homeopathy is an insidious scam: xkcd: Dilution. Also, with the exception of acupuncture, I'm not aware of any positive research. We can photograph auras. The question is whether you believe the spiritual philosophy behind the aura, or if you just believe its energy output escaping the body (heat). In this situation, the belief would be if you analyze your aura you can find a disease before it becomes a problem. (its also believed the photograph only shows the tip of the iceberg of the aura) One way to look at it is this, everything has a frequency/vibration because everything is actually energy. Science already knows that certain frequencies are associated with life. Well, certain frequencies are also associated with decay and death. A diseased organ "sounds" different than a healthy organ. Because there is a direct relationship between sound, light, and color, you can say the auras that people photograph is a depiction of the health of the body based on the various frequencies. There is both positive and negative research concerning remote prayer. A good book that investigates the researches thoroughly is The Intention Project. The book also explains how difficult it is to set up a genuine research concerning remote prayer. For example, in one research the control group were hospital patients who were not being prayed for by volunteers. Seems like a good control right? The research concluded that prayer has no effect, and this was published in scientific papers worldwide. Problem is, there was no control. Because no one took into consideration that family and friends who were not a part of the research would pray for the control patients! In the book The Intention Project, you'll find other research into remote healing that is more thorough and takes many more factors into consideration. (there's a lot of factors!) They invite ordinary people with no training in healing, and compare them up against monks, reiki masters, and native american shamens. The preliminary results show that people trained in healing do help people heal faster than those who are not trained in healing. The preliminary results also show, that if an individual is not trained in healing, their prayers can actually have an adverse effect! We can strip away the words and bring it down to intention. Does the average person who pray, pray from compassion and with sound faith that the individual will get better? Or do they pray out of FEAR and DOUBT? And if you're interested, the book also explores possible scientific explanations why someones intent can have a physical effect on us. No gaurantees you'll like their explanation, but it's an interesting read. Don't even get me started on those promotional tape. There's this particularly pernicious thing called "Electromagnet Pulse Therapy" that I'm hating on at the moment. I can't find any links for it though. That being said, I have never met a good business person that needed to listen to promotional tapes. It's mostly the ones that are strapped for cash. Lol! Well yes, I think those tapes suck too. They're kinda cultish don't you think? Lol...I've never met a "good" business person. Aren't they all after our pockets? Piezoelectricity requires more energy to produce than is produced. This property of quartz is usually used in the opposite direction, that is a regular electric charge produces regular oscillations which is useful for clocks. It's not (generally) useful as a source of energy. It's important to understand in the spiritual belief of 'crystal energy', its believed that crystals channel energy, or store energy. The source is usually some other deeper spiritual belief, like prana. Crystals do 'channel' and 'store' energy, the question that science asks, does it benefit us in the way these beliefs say they do? I know Hitler was reputedly mad into the occult. The nazi swastika is just a reversed symbol that occurred in many contexts around the world. I heard Bush was into occult. I also heard he shook hands with aliens

[DuB]

Many of these things do indeed "work" and there is plenty of evidence to support that...but the problem is that there is no consistency. The comic should have said, "If it worked 100% of the time, without fail, and in a consistent manner, companies would be using it to make a killing in..." The 100% clause is not necessary for the argument at all. Companies are happy to use marketing techniques developed by social scientists which only "work" a small minority of the time. While statistically weak, these techniques work enough of the time to justify the huge sums of money spent on implementing them. The methods from the comic don't. Simple as that.

[Replicon]

Yeah, I don't think we require 100% consistency. If you have consistency that shows, in a statistically-similar way, that it works, over a large sample space, that's all it takes. And if I could show such a thing, you could bet that I would take James Randi's million dollars. Ok, so you might argue that people who CAN do that stuff have transcended to a level where they don't WANT the million... ok, you can donate it to any cause you'd like... and if you can get James Randi to publicly admit that he has finally found someone who can demonstrate some of these phenomena, then a lot of OTHER people would go for it too, and succeed. Surely, such an awakening is something even the most "transcended" (whatever that means) being would wish upon people. Hehe as far as making money on quackery goes: There's a company somewhere that claims that if you give them some high sum of money, they will give a pregnant woman drugs that will influence her chances of getting the gendered baby she wants. Of course, it doesn't ALWAYS work, and if it fails, you get your money back. Need I say more? I just wish I had thought of it first. Brilliant!

[DrunkenArse]

Hehe as far as making money on quackery goes: There's a company somewhere that claims that if you give them some high sum of money, they will give a pregnant woman drugs that will influence her chances of getting the gendered baby she wants. Of course, it doesn't ALWAYS work, and if it fails, you get your money back. Need I say more? I just wish I had thought of it first. Brilliant! That's the most over the top ingenious thing I've ever heard. It could just be the mood I'm in but, right now, I think that's more impressive than general relativity and quantum electrodynamics combined. It's so incredibly elegant. I hope they don't spoil it by having anything other than lactose sugar in the "drugs."

[nina]

If another idiot on this forum brings up that charlatan fuck James Randi and his fraudulent million dollar challenge I'm banning them. The Myth of the Million Dollar Challenge | TDG - Science, Magick, Myth and History I agree with DuB...he basically said what I was trying to say but much better. The point is that none of this stuff works enough of the time to justify spending a shitload of money on it. But it does exist...and it seems to only work enough of the time to create lots and lots of evidence in the form of metadata(?) and inconclusive and widely varying reports from experts and scientists. Maybe such things will start working better when the people of this world are ready and prepared for that sort of change. At the moment, most aren't.

[spockman]

If another idiot on this forum brings up that charlatan fuck James Randi and his fraudulent million dollar challenge I'm banning them. The Myth of the Million Dollar Challenge | TDG - Science, Magick, Myth and History I agree with DuB...he basically said what I was trying to say but much better. The point is that none of this stuff works enough of the time to justify spending a shitload of money on it. But it does exist...and it seems to only work enough of the time to create lots and lots of evidence in the form of metadata(?) and inconclusive and widely varying reports from experts and scientists. Maybe such things will start working better when the people of this world are ready and prepared for that sort of change. At the moment, most aren't. If that is the case, what basis do you have to believe it?

[nina]

If that is the case, what basis do you have to believe it? Well that's simple...lots of personal experience.

[Spartiate]

Well that's simple...lots of personal experience. Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not accusing you of anything... but roughly one in three people suffer from some sort of mental illness at some point in their life. So taking that alone into consideration, when somebody makes rather unbelievable claims that can't be substantiated, it's simply easier to believe that they're crazy rather than trust their personal experience.

[Replicon]

Anecdotal evidence != data By the way, I'm not coming at this from a "hahaha I want to prove you wrong" mentality. Really, I WANT some of this stuff to be true, and to work, but I have yet to see any - ANY - credible evidence of it. Many of these things do indeed "work" and there is plenty of evidence to support that... Can you point me to a reputable, peer-reviewed scientific study that presents such evidence in the form of data, rather than single anecdotes? but the problem is that there is no consistency. Define this. What is the margin of error? What is YOUR success rate (at whatever it is you do specifically), and by how much is it offset? If you do something where a random guess would yield the correct answer 10% of the time, and your result is roughly 13%, that isn't statistically significant. However, if it's more like 35%, given a large data set, and given that you cannot rely on any outside factors like subconsciously picking up on the expectant facial expressions/emotions of people watching, who know the right answer, then let's work together to come up with a way that you can help share this knowledge with the world. I bring up the facial expressions of folks who know the right answer, because once you learn to read very subtle cues people give, you can basically guess very specific things about them that only they would know, correcting your statements based purely on the cues they give before they even say anything.

[nina]

So taking that alone into consideration, when somebody makes rather unbelievable claims that can't be substantiated, it's simply easier to believe that they're crazy rather than trust their personal experience. Oh I agree completely. That's why I'm skeptical of other people's claims...I'll write them off as crazy just as quickly as the next person. Most definitely I'm a "see it to believe it" sort of person who has to experience something for myself before I would even consider the existence of something unsupported by mainstream science. I have a lot of respect for science, hell I'm going into the medical field. I'm a very analytical person and I like facts and things that can be substantiated by lots of research. It's a very strange dynamic for me to exist in a world where I have seen and experienced many things that mainstream science does not accept. I mean...I know that I'm not crazy. You don't know that I'm not crazy, so I realize that what I say is likely to be easily dismissed by anyone. Hell, I do the same thing to other people (that I don't know well and trust).

[spockman]

Well that's simple...lots of personal experience. It seems like you would accept that people in general can't be blamed for not being prepared to accept the paranormal, then, since without personal experience conclusive reports are all they have to go on. Even with some personal experience in the apparently paranormal, to me anyway, evidence would still be more convincing then anything but the most intense and proveable experience. I've seen a decent amount of weird crap before, as well. Once I clearly saw a person look me in the eyes. He turned out not to be there at all. I checked to see if I had any other symptoms of schizophrenia, I didn't and never saw anything like it again, so I decided not to make anything of it. I figure that I cannot determine if it was a hallucination or something paranormal. Until I can, all I have to go by is evidence. So no point worrying about it. Most people will probably think like this in similar situations and I bet most people won't have a 'paranormal experience' more intense then that. So without facts to back up the paranormal, the default opinion is an open-minded disbeleif.

[Alric]

but the problem is that there is no consistency. A lot of people would say if there is no consistency then you are just relying on coincidences. Meaning they don't actually work.

[nina]

Even with some personal experience in the apparently paranormal, to me anyway, evidence would still be more convincing then anything but the most intense and proveable experience....I figure that I cannot determine if it was a hallucination or something paranormal. Until I can, all I have to go by is evidence. So no point worrying about it. Most people will probably think like this in similar situations and I bet most people won't have a 'paranormal experience' more intense then that. So without facts to back up the paranormal, the default opinion is an open-minded disbeleif. Well the only things that I tentatively believe in (btw I don't say that I fully believe in them, because yes some part of me always remains skeptical, and will, until someone comes up with some definitive proof...and this I do believe will happen eventually when science figures out how to measure this sort of thing)...were things without explanation that happened multiple times. If I saw something just once like you had, I would consider it the same as you did. Hallucination or possibly something paranormal. For instance, I've had multiple experiences with dream sharing (that goes well beyond some of the silly coincidences that I've seen people on this site attribute to dream sharing). As a result, I'm open to believing that dream sharing might be possible. I've had multiple experiences with remote viewing, and on 4 separate occasions described the exact layout and contents of a room hundreds of miles away that I have never seen before. One of those instances actually involved a location on the other side of the world. You might find this next example entertaining...but I've had lots of experiences that would lead me to believe that animal communication/telepathy is possible. I was pretty skeptical about this, so when I starting telling owners what their pets were saying to me, and they were absolutely astounded and completely convinced that I really was speaking with their pets because there would have been no other way of me getting that information, I was pretty shocked. I can remain skeptical, but I also won't deny that something unexplainable was happening. But here's one that I'm certain of...some people can make a lightbulb short out just by looking at it or focusing attention on it. I'm certain of this one because I did it at least 50 times. With three different lamps. In three different houses. Would that be called electrokinesis? I don't even know. Whatever it is. It's real. I've also had experiences with telepathy, channeling/automatic writing, altering vibrational frequencies, and receiving information from crystals...but I don't have enough evidence to support those...so I tend to approach them the same way as other phenomena what I have no experience with...such as...I have never seen a ghost. I'm open to the possibility that they might exist, but remain skeptical.

[Replicon]

I've had multiple experiences with remote viewing, and on 4 separate occasions described the exact layout and contents of a room hundreds of miles away that I have never seen before. One of those instances actually involved a location on the other side of the world. I remember you were writing, at some point, about being able to read pages from a random book that was opened in your room while you were sleeping or something like that. If I were to write you a note and leave it on a counter somewhere in my condo (one easy to remember sentence, with large, clear writing), and if you were to tell me accurately what the note says, I would be pretty convinced. What would have to happen for such an experiment to take place? Seriously, that would be life-changingly amazing, and alter my belief system in a very positive way if that took place.