Thread: Being Wicked or Immoral.

That is interesting to me. I never seem to have a problem with it. I think it probably just doesn't appeal to you in waking life, so this carries over into your dreams. I like to do things that I wouldn't normally do in waking life because I enjoy the reactions on my dream characters' faces, and partly to "feel" what it would be like to do so.

I have wondered if my sub-conscious is telling me this kind of behaviour is non-productive or detrimental to my overall well being. Also that this behaviour, if acted upon would be self destructive and produce negative effects in "real life". It is interesting that you don't seem to have a problem with this. Maybe I am just too uptight or "goody two shoes" about the whole thing. This leads to another question. Can we just "let everything go" in dreams or is it wise to follow the flow of things. ie, is dreaming a sin just as bad as committing one in real life. Now I am going a bit deep even for myself.

Originally posted by dreamboat
I cannot seem to be nasty or immoral in a dream. *Is my sub-conscious restricting me in some way. *No I am not a nasty person, *it just seems there is some sort of barrier to certain behaviours.

I believe this to be true. I have the same barriers. Some people I have talked to can do anything they want ANYTHING!
I can be standing there in my dream and tell myself I can do anything. No one really gets hurt. But once I try, I wake up or my mind manipulates the scene to where I can not do what it (My subconcsious) felt was wrong.
It has always been that way for me.

I am not a religious fanatic by any stretch of the imagination. Though I once read, "thinking a sin" is the same as committing one. Fancy being "Judged" on one's dreams. Anyway, in the back of my mind is the thought, "what if" I could get away with it just this once. Wonder if Mr "Diablo" is taking notice. Also, what if the American "Far Right" got a hold of this one.

Just a thought but if you do things contrary to your conscience waking or sleeping you are causing an internal conflict. First resolve it with your conscience and then maybe you can do it in your dreams. I have deep convictions about using power for good, although I probably would allow myself certain indulgences in dreams. But, I could imagine a scenario where a person fills their dreams with wickedness (this is a morally non-neutral term but anyways) and then it becomes more difficult to live a good life. Would it sort of be like being a secret murderer or rapist or something? These are legitimate questions I think. Adn what about character how does that work in the world of LD?

EJ

Oh by the way if we drop all of the value laden terms like wickedness and goodness etc, (which are mostly religous in origin), we are left only with what we would have done in and of ourselves. It reminds me of the famous Beatles song

"What do you see when you turn out the lights? I can't tell you but I know its mine."

In regards to the previous post, one of the indulgences I would allow myself in my dreams would be to inflict pain on anyone who hurts the innocent.

But then again if we think of our dreams as video games then death and possibly wickedness does not mean as much as it does in real life.

A few salty thoughts!

EJ

What if we, regardless of our human impulses and imperfections sought to develope Love and Compassion in our Dreams even if this was against our baser instincts. What would be the result.

Good Question, Damn Good Question.

Originally posted by dreamboat
What if we, regardless of our human impulses and imperfections sought to develope Love and Compassion in our Dreams even if this was against our baser instincts. What would be the result.

WOW! What a concept dreamboat!! Develope love. Rather than rape& plumage. Cause desruction mayhem, havoc, and strife?

What if we, regardless of our human impulses and imperfections sought to develope Love and Compassion in our Dreams even if this was against our baser instincts. What would be the result.[/b]

I really like the style in which this question is asked, somthing to ponder for a few days....

Going 'against' our Primordial Human Instincts (impulses and imperfections) to develop Love and Compassion (affection and consideration) in our Dreams.

Im sure the results would be "interesting".

Great Question, dreamboat.

And as far as hurting people in dreams, I've always had a problem with fist-fighting. If I'm having an epic, clearly-supernaturally themed dream, I'm a warrior without parallel. But if I'm having a realistic dream, and find myself in a stick situation, I can duck and dodge with a speed to rival a dbz character, but when it comes to throwing a punch, it feels like an invisible barrier works to push my fist off course.
This has always frustrated me, and I've always wondered why it is. I'm not the kind of person that fights regularly, so I think that my mental resolve to Not resort to fighting, is what makes fighting in such a realistic dream-setting such a task.

You're lucky to have this barrier. I am a Christian and consider myself a moral person, so when my dreams have me doing something that goes against my morals I get frustrated. I've talked with people about this before and I'm sure there's a "Morality in dreams" post somewhere around here if you want to check that out.

My synopsis: in a regular dream, you are not consciously making decisions. It is the subconscious projecting images/sensations. However, in a lucid dream I believe a person is just as responsible for their actions as a person who is awake. Therefore, if you kill someone in a lucid dream, knowing full well what you're doing, it would be immoral or if you perfer, a sin.

I've actually found that any time I hurt someone in a dream I feel bad and try to remedy the situation. My favorite example is when I kicked the crap out of this one guy and then went to go get him some asprin. I think that love is a natural tendency, but society has pushed it aside for things like materialism and personal welfare. Nothing but good could come from cultivating love, and thank you for bringing up that question.

-Amé

I was talking to a guy named MoneyElk once in chat and he told me that he likes to go on rampages in his dreams with samurai swords and what not. I was apalled..


dreamboat Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 8:03 pm Post subject:

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I am not a religious fanatic by any stretch of the imagination. Though I once read, "thinking a sin" is the same as committing one. Fancy being "Judged" on one's dreams. Anyway, in the back of my mind is the thought, "what if" I could get away with it just this once. Wonder if Mr "Diablo" is taking notice. Also, what if the American "Far Right" got a hold of this one

I've heard this as well and I myself have thought before that I could get away with killing someone. There was no point to it though besides Random thinking. What do you think of this? You see a stranger and think, "I could kill him/her and get away with it". Is that the same? Obviously I am not serious about it but this may be what goes through serial killers minds.

othniel, may i ask you a simple question:-

How can you be "Appalled" by someone elses actions in 'their' dreams?

MoneyElk has been a respected member of Dream Views for along time now, you joined 2 days ago, its not polite to come into a 'community forum' and state you have been 'appalled' by someone actions (and talking behind their back about it). If someone mentions a dream they have had and you don’t like it, keep it to yourself, don’t voice your opinion on their dreams. After all this is a forum and we as a group discuss' our own dreams.

Originally posted by Mystical_Journey
othniel, may i ask you a simple question:-

How can you be \"Appalled\" by someone elses actions in 'their' dreams?

MoneyElk has been a respected member of Dream Views for along time now, you joined 2 days ago, its not polite to come into a 'community forum' and state you have been 'appalled' by someone actions (and talking behind their back about it). If someone mentions a dream they have had and you don’t like it, keep it to yourself, don’t voice your opinion on their dreams. After all this is a forum and we as a group discuss' our own dreams.

um yah you dont know who I am so... (aw hell im oath) and I thought moneyelk might not like me to tell but if he really cared he wouldnt have told me. The truth is MoneyElk could give a s*&% less. and I already told moneyelk my opinion on what he does....HE DOESNT CARE

sorry for being rude mystical I really enjoy your post but Im trying to make a point.

I guess i understand now, its just MonkeyElk is a cool member (one of the first i spoke to on Dream Views) he's an intelligent guy, just dont like people saying things about people who i consider as a "net-friend". i take it back Oath

Back to topic (sorry people)..........

Seriously. This aspect of Lucid Dreaming is for me quite worrying. What for example if you had some major argument with your spouse during the day and then decided to quite willfully Kill them in a Lucid Dream. Also, Don't all Serial Killers start out by fanticising about their victims. ( I mean, How could you look them in the eye the next morning).

This leads down the same path as "Is lucid dreaming harmful?" I have heard that psychopaths do not dream at all, or at least never remember their dreams. I think they noticed really odd brain wave patterns in sociopaths, but dont quote me on that one.

I think I know what your getting at. Frontal lobe scans? or something to that effect. So they tend to live out their fantasies in real life ?.

Good point, dreamboat. But I see it like this....

With lucid dreaming, comes extra responsibility on the point that "What goes on in your head, stays in your head."

For everybody that dreams, there comes the scary weight that your brain can literally, and usually unwittingly, drive you insane. A stray thought, fantasy, notion, scheme, is no more than exactly that...until you decide to act upon it. So I would think thats its perfectly fine to dream about whatever you will. If you have a problem with your boss in waking life, slay him in your dreams. Hell, rip his head off and post it on the sign that marks his designated parking spot, as long as its in your head. But if you are taking on the practice of lucid dreaming, one of the Most Basic lessons is knowing waking reality from dream reality. Just because you do it in your dreams, doesn't make it ok while you're awake.

All you gotta do is keep yourself in check while awake, and it won't matter what you do in your dreams. If you can't control yourself that much, you don't need to be messing with your mind, anyway, ya know?

That sounds fair enough to me. But what if some already unbalanced soul could not distinguish his or her dreams from reality and decides to act upon them. I think people are generally wary of the unknown anyway be it by socialisation or their own misfortune. I remember playing with a "Witchboard" at age 13 and it literally scared the **** out of me for years. What if this effect was multiplied seven fold towards an unbalanced person. Sorry, but I personally would not like to push the boundaries out that far. If it's not Broken don't mess with it. (Then again, on the other side of this argument), Imagine a three year old "natural lucid dreamer" who stated "Mommy. I Just Killed You Last Night.

Well, this is all about the boundary of where right ends and wrong begins. There's no middle ground. Here's a question for you: why should we hold ourselves to a different standard when we're asleep than when we're awake?

We're not talking "sane" person versus "insane" person. We're assuming that the good majority of people here are rational human beings capable of making their own choices and justifying their actions. It just puzzles me why one would want to purposefully harm someone else in their dreams. To me, it's just like real life, only the only person who knows is the dreamer. If you want to fight someone in a dream, at least make it a non-descript DC or a movie character or someone who you don't have a real life grudge with.

Think how imbalanced a person could become, also! A person who regularly inflicted harm upon a person from their life in a dream could possible come to believe their delusions. That could carry over into real-life violence where the dreamer would think that "they could take" the object of their hatred and hurt them in real life. It's not wrong to assume what the consequences would be, though.

I think everything has consequences, even the actions in your dreams. A person who is habitually hostile in their dreams in that they regularly inflict harm upon characters will eventually suffer the consequences of those thoughts. Take a man who sees a girl and decides he really likes her. Then he begins to fantasize about her on a regular basis. Once a person does that, he will begin to feel a sense of ownership over her, if only in a mental way. However, that will affect the way he acts towards her and to others that are around her.

I'll end this longer (slightly disorganized) post. I just don't think the double-standard we hold ourselves to is a good thing.

-Amé

Well I can see the dangers for maybe an imbalanced person..that goes without saying. -nods-

Though I think a stable lucid dreamer, experienced enough to control their dreams to a good degree, would be able to make any scenario they want, like a director using the experiences of their normal life to make a violent, yet award wining movie. It would not necessarily mean that the director would one day be a threat of acting out his character's actions.

....well hmm...then there was that kid that wrote a script about the killing spree he acted out....but....he doesn't count.

I don’t think the fact that there are no consequences determines if a person does something or not, I think it just makes them not think twice about doing something that they want to do. In dreams, I think it is a perfect place to learn about yourself because you will find yourself acting out the seceret dreams of your subconcious. It doesn't surprise me at all that most people dont find pleasure in killing people in their dreams.