lucid dreaming as vision quests?

[abaddon]

I’ve had a few lucid dreams in my life, and they were fascinating because I walked about in them, feeling the solidity of walls, the “I am my own person” look in dream-characters eyes, looking at the words in books, marveling that some aspect of Mind was creating this. And, though it was more change-able than “real life”, still the detail was intricate and amazing. I’ve considered it’d be worth trying to have more lucid dreams... But then, I’m not sure why. I can see it’s a great adventure in consciousness, with important philosophical implications about how our minds work and also potential mental health benefits. My main concern in my life is environmental issues. I believe we humans need a greater understanding of our interconnectedness with nature, and we need to stop playing at being manipulative overlords of nature, in order to survive for very much longer. That line of thought has led me toward a more shamanic or animist view for how we could and should relate with the rest of nature. We need to dialogue with other species and treat them as nations of persons... (And I could develop that, but it gets quite involved). What I want to know is, can lucid dreaming help with that? Or with anything similar? I guess the question comes down to: Can one learn wisdom from lucid dreaming? I define “wisdom” as “knowing your place in the greater scheme of life on earth.” Others will have different ideas of what wisdom is, or how we should relate to nature. So, if you do, just fill in what your idea for wisdom and healthy self-and-nature relation is. To sum up: Is it a variety of vision-questing or shamanic journeying? And if so, how? Are there wise “subpersonalities” (that a traditional or ancient culture might have thought were animal guides, spirits, angels, or another variety of wisdom figure) in the dreamworld who can advise the dreamer on his life and how to respect self, others and nature better, as visions did for earlier “traditional” cultures? Visionquests were also a variety of initiation rite in traditional cultures. Initiation rites involve saying goodbye to old patterns that no longer function in your life, and opening oneself to a new way of perceiving self and one's relation to other and to the world. Like the transition from adolescence to a fully self-reliant adulthood, for example. "Dying to the old self and birthing into a new one" in more metaphoric language. Is there potential for that in lucid dreaming? To me, these are still valid means of gaining "wisdom." And in place of trance-drumming and fasting outdoors in the ever-dwindling undomesticated bits of the world, we might use lucid dreaming to "quest for visions". That is, to seek wisdom greater than what's generally accessible in everyday consciousness. Or is lucid dreaming mostly introverting for either mental thrill-rides or for self-therapy? What are your thoughts on this? Thanks!

[italianmonkey]

is the state of consciousness alike in lucid dreams and that sort of (generalising too much) visions? probably. i would dare to say yes. BUT the point is that the vision itself it's not so central in the complexe rituals you're talking about, or at least it's not all in them. the risk is to mix up means and objectives. dreams, musics, dances, plants... are means to pursue something else. all equally possible i suppose... so by pure theory, yes. ethically............... uhm

[Robot_Butler]

Have you read up on Tibetan Dream Yoga? I wish I had more time. To break it down to an insultingly basic level, you use dreaming and lucid dreaming as a tool to realize that the world around you is just an illusion of your own creation. Then you can let it all go. No longer worry about experience. I've been lucky enough to have studied with some people who have dedicated their lives to this. It's like hanging out with 5 year old kids. Not a care in the world. Doing exactly what they want with every minute of their lives.