Thread: Why WILD?

Originally Posted by Jackalhead

There is no disorder. SP is a very natural occurrence that happens every night whether the individual is aware of it or not -- 99% of the time they are already unconscious by the time there body goes into sleep paralysis. This is a necessary function to keep people from sleep walking. In fact, the only people with a disorder are the people who DON'T go into SP regularly before reaching REM, because they have a sleep walking disorder. SP only becomes an issue when the person naturally remains conscious, without the desire to go out of body or into a lucid dream and is in absolute terror as they have no idea what is going on.

This is incorrect. There is indeed a disorder, when SP is suffered by someone frequently and severely enough.
REM atonia is this natural occurrence of paralysis you are speaking of, and you will be unaware of it since you will be asleep. Lucid dreamers blur these lines, as they keep their minds awake long enough that it is possible that they will consciously experience the onset of REM atonia.
Neither REM atonia nor SP are responsible for keeping you from sleep walking (somnambulism), as it does not occur during REM but in the stages just before it. In those who suffer from REM Behavior Disorder (RBD), yes, REM atonia will not kick in and so they will move around during their REM dreams. This is different than somnambulism.
The majority of people who have SP as a disorder do not know what lucid dreaming is and are plagued by petrifying hallucinations and the inability to move, though the only criterion for SP is that inability to move. Even if they learn to lucid dream, it is still a disorder. Just because someone who is OCD benefits from a neat house doesn't mean they don't have a disorder.

Originally Posted by Jackalhead

A lot of times, when people WILD they lose the kinesthetic sensation of their physical body BEFORE it goes into SP, which is a very wonderful thing as you don't have to suffer the terror before the fun begins.

???

Originally Posted by Jackalhead

As far as debating and discussing the relevance the occult has with lucid dreaming, we'll save that for another time and another thread where it would be more on topic.

That's what BD is for. Lucid dreaming is mixed up enough in that sort of stuff. That's like saying a heart attack is a ghostly possession. It's just unnecessary and gives oneironauts and lucid dreamers an even harder time being taken seriously. Lucid dreaming has nothing to do with the occult. If you think it does, you are not lucid dreaming because you are missing the most critical thing about lucid dreaming- the knowledge that it is all simply a dream.

Originally Posted by Jackalhead

Really? I thought SP was when you find yourself awake in bed yet hallucinating and you are completely paralyzed.

Now you're getting things right.

Originally Posted by Shift

This is incorrect. There is indeed a disorder, when SP is suffered by someone frequently and severely enough.
REM atonia is this natural occurrence of paralysis you are speaking of, and you will be unaware of it since you will be asleep.

That's interesting. The WILD articles I read all referred to this as SP. However, as experienced as you are, you could be and probably are right.

Originally Posted by Shift

Even if they learn to lucid dream, it is still a disorder. Just because someone who is OCD benefits from a neat house doesn't mean they don't have a disorder.

OCD people don't really benefit from a clean house, because that's not how OCD works. When you get the impulse to DO or CLEAN something a signal is sent from the brain to the parts of your body that instruct you to DO or CLEAN it. However, with someone who has OCD, after completing this process, it never registers in the brain through that they did it, due to problems with their synapses. Therefore they continue to repeat the same task on the same object over and over again. It could be washing their hands, it could be wiping down the mirror.

But my point is, it's not like most people believe that they are paranoid of germs and rapidly run around the house cleaning everything in sight. It's just the same object being cleaned over and over for a couple of hours, once they get the urge.

In fact, this may shock you, but according to my psychology professor, the majority of people with OCD he has helped had the most filthiest living spaces he has seen.

I know I went off on a tangent, but I wanted to clear this up with everyone. For some reason it bothers me when people refer to orderly and clean people as having OCD.

Originally Posted by Shift

???

Kinesthetic sensation is the awareness of where your body is positioned and what is touching it. If you shut your eyes and wave your hand in front of your face, kinesthetic sensation is what tells you where it is located without having to see it. Focus on this as you fall asleep to achieve WILD more easily.

Originally Posted by Shift

That's what BD is for. Lucid dreaming is mixed up enough in that sort of stuff. That's like saying a heart attack is a ghostly possession. It's just unnecessary and gives oneironauts and lucid dreamers an even harder time being taken seriously. Lucid dreaming has nothing to do with the occult. If you think it does, you are not lucid dreaming because you are missing the most critical thing about lucid dreaming- the knowledge that it is all simply a dream.

I'm lost with your analogy of heart attacks and possession, sorry. The occult is merely science that hasn't been explained yet, and that's exactly where lucid dreaming started. When lucid dreaming was the most widely introduced to north americans in the late 1970's, it hadn't been scientifically proven and was lumped right in with astral projection as being mysterious and mystical. However, when S. Laberge from Stanford University conducted his REM / lucidity study at The Lucidity Institute, he blew other researchers right out of the water. The same is yet to come for proving astral projection, telekinesis, mind control, you name it. It's all real and there's all a science behind it. Even common ritual magick uses scientifically governed forces of the universe to work. It's all a matter of reaching the point that technology can help us scientifically prove how it works. In actuality, there is no "magick" behind any of these things -- unless you want to call unexplained science "magick". They are all manifestations of precise rules and laws of the universe. Just like gravity or body building. It seems complex, but if you calculate your daily calories and supply the right portions of protein and other essential nutrients as well as do certain, specific moves so many times each day, so many times each week, you will begin to build muscle. It's a complex process you have to balance just right to reap the benefits of and some people can't seem to figure it out for the life of them, but that doesn't mean it's magick. Sorry, that last part was another tangent. I am on a roll with tangents today.

My point is, lucid dreaming is in the same category of the occult which is "unexplained science", in all reality. I know it has been scientifically explained, however, I still refer to it as the occult as that's where lucid dreaming started and I like to keep it in the same category as other extraordinary phenomena.

Originally Posted by Jackalhead

That's interesting. The WILD articles I read all referred to this as SP. However, as experienced as you are, you could be and probably are right.

Articles on DV? If you read a legit scientific article, this is how they will be explained as that is what they are, by definition.

Originally Posted by Jackalhead

In fact, this may shock you, but according to my psychology professor, the majority of people with OCD he has helped had the most filthiest living spaces he has seen.

Yea, I know what OCD is. Actually the few people I know who have it are very organized, maybe your prof's minority. Anyway, I was going for a very generalized concept. Either way, you get the point of my metaphor If a disorder has benefits, just because someone reaps those benefits doesn't mean they don't have a disorder.

Originally Posted by Jackalhead

Kinesthetic sensation is the awareness of where your body is positioned and what is touching it. If you shut your eyes and wave your hand in front of your face, kinesthetic sensation is what tells you where it is located without having to see it. Focus on this as you fall asleep to achieve WILD more easily.

I know what kinesthetic sensation is. I was ??? @ when you said that you lose your kinesthetic sensation when WILDing before you enter SP. I am pretty sure that you meant to say REM atonia, which I agree with. If you did mean to say SP, then I highly disagree with you.

Originally Posted by Jackalhead

My point is, lucid dreaming is in the same category of the occult which is "unexplained science", in all reality. I know it has been scientifically explained, however, I still refer to it as the occult as that's where lucid dreaming started and I like to keep it in the same category as other extraordinary phenomena.

The term occult generally refers to supernatural, and also the secret, or unknown things. Lucid dreaming is no longer any of those, and in order to make any advancement you have to realize that it is not supernatural, and that if you realize that it isn't then it's wrong to refer to it as though it is. That's just going to hinder lucid dreaming from progressing further into legitimacy. Lumping it with paranormal things or the supernatural is never something you're going to convince me to do. And if scientific laws are discovered to be applicable for those other things, then they will be following LD and no longer be classified as paranormal or supernatural.

One of my goals in life is to exist in an age when lucid dreaming has no associations with the supernatural, paranormal, new age, or occult. It already shouldn't.

Originally Posted by Jackalhead

I'm lost with your analogy of heart attacks and possession, sorry. The occult is merely science that hasn't been explained yet, and that's exactly where lucid dreaming started. When lucid dreaming was the most widely introduced to north americans in the late 1970's, it hadn't been scientifically proven and was lumped right in with astral projection as being mysterious and mystical. However, when S. Laberge from Stanford University conducted his REM / lucidity study at The Lucidity Institute, he blew other researchers right out of the water. The same is yet to come for proving astral projection, telekinesis, mind control, you name it. It's all real and there's all a science behind it. Even common ritual magick uses scientifically governed forces of the universe to work. It's all a matter of reaching the point that technology can help us scientifically prove how it works. In actuality, there is no "magick" behind any of these things -- unless you want to call unexplained science "magick". They are all manifestations of precise rules and laws of the universe. Just like gravity or body building. It seems complex, but if you calculate your daily calories and supply the right portions of protein and other essential nutrients as well as do certain, specific moves so many times each day, so many times each week, you will begin to build muscle. It's a complex process you have to balance just right to reap the benefits of and some people can't seem to figure it out for the life of them, but that doesn't mean it's magick. Sorry, that last part was another tangent. I am on a roll with tangents today.

My point is, lucid dreaming is in the same category of the occult which is "unexplained science", in all reality. I know it has been scientifically explained, however, I still refer to it as the occult as that's where lucid dreaming started and I like to keep it in the same category as other extraordinary phenomena.

Please know that you're really starting to tick me off. It's the ones like you that give Lucid Dreaming a bad name. You know it's scientifically proven, yet you still call it occult? Are you freaking KIDDING me?! You list all the qualifications of what makes something occult, say Lucid Dreaming isn't that, and you still call it occult. You need reconditioning. Seriously. Nothing can tick me off more than when Lucid Dreaming is mashed with something where it doesn't belong. Even though you're conscious in it, Lucid Dreaming is still DREAMING. So you're saying that dreaming is general is occult? Don't give me a freaking wall of text, that's what you're saying. I might as well unsubscribe from this thread if all you're going to do is say it's occult. Screw being as civil as Shift. You've made my chivalry go out the window.

Sorry guys, I was wrong with mixing up REM Atonia and SP.

Regarding the occult, when I classify LD as occult, I don't think of the occult as a bad thing. It's not like it's devil worship or anything. I think more of the occult as the tibetan bhuddist type views. You know, there's nothing wrong with the occult. As far as giving LD a bad name, I NEVER mention the words Lucid Dream and Occult together in any sentence talking to someone who has never had a lucid dream. The only reason I classify it as occult IN MY OWN MIND is so I remember not to talk about it with people in public, because that's also what THEY would classify it as. I know it's just dreaming consciously, but in America people are so close minded and ignorant you have to be careful what you say or they will label you as witch or devil worshipper.

But that's the thing; You don't KNOW what they think of it as. They've probably never even heard of a Lucid Dream being related to the occult. At most they'll just shrug it off. I didn't say it was bad. But it's the views you think people have of the occult that give Lucid Dreaming a bad name. Views that negatively associate us with occult activity. WE DO NOT WANT THAT. Whether good or bad, we don't want anything to do with being clumped to the occult. Period. We've already been labeled as "New Age". Don't give us another label that discredits us even further.

If you want to call it that in your own mind, fine, but don't confuse others that are new to the LD experience.