Thread: Grammar 101

hey kage,

At first I really didn't know what to make of what you posted--I mean, I asked myself just how could all my high school english teachers and university professors be wrong? So I dug around through my books and found my old "Canadian Practical Stylist" book. It basically says everything I've said is true in Canadian literature, and even goes further to say that if one has seen punctuation outside of quotes (other than semi-colons, colons, and double-hyphens), then it was probably British literature. So it's the Britons that have everything backwards. If this Chicago reference that you've presented here is indeed adhered to by the U.S., then I guess you guys are following the Britons.

As a quick summary, my reference book says to never capitalize the first word following a colon unless that word is normally capitalized. It also reaffirms everything I said about punctuation within/without quotation marks (which also applies to parentheses).

Originally posted by icedawg
So it's the Britons that have everything backwards. * *

aahh! it all makes sense now!

i never realized that canadians used different styles than we do here. that's kinda interesting. aren't style manuals fun?

Originally posted by kage23


this would definitely be the most clear, but not very aesthetically pleasing.

I also agree that it doesn't look great, but since I'm more of a "function over form" kind of person, I wouldn't mind too much since it makes sense. I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that I do computer programming as one of my hobbies. I'm pretty nitpicky about errors, but I sometimes feel somewhat rebellious over some of English's "proper" rules that aren't very logical.

[quote]I also agree that it doesn't look great, but since I'm more of a "function over form" kind of person, I wouldn't mind too much since it makes sense. I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that I do computer programming as one of my hobbies. I'm pretty nitpicky about errors, but I sometimes feel somewhat rebellious over some of English's "proper" rules that aren't very logical.

i, on the other hand, work for a university press, so i have learned to be concerned about both proper usage and aesthetics. although if there is ever any conflict between the two, proper usage would trump aesthetics.

Originally posted by kage23
aahh! it all makes sense now!

i never realized that canadians used different styles than we do here. that's kinda interesting. aren't style manuals fun?

Interesting isn't it...it seems each country forges its own version of the language, perhaps simply as a by-product of its sovereignty. I find it strange that we've decided to keep the u's in many words (such as colour) like the British, but have changed (for example) the punctuation rules; in contrast, the U.S. has abandoned the u's and kept the punctuation rules apparently.

i.e. Well, I thought it meant "for example" but I
looked it up in the dictionary and it said "that is (to say)" which I think
is about the same as "for example".
Apostrophe is used, in the circumstances, as a possessive. So if
the subject (Chris) is singular, meaning one, you add 's (Chris's house).
If the subject (a group of philosophers or United States) is plural, meaning
more than one and already has an s at the end, you just add an apostrophe
(philosophers' point of view or the United States' view).

Too... many... grammars...
It's still the weekend, people! Some of us don't want to worry about grammar.

Yeah! Grammar!

*gives grammar a big hug*

Just reading a Wikipedia article on American grammar makes me nauseous.

Pittsburgh is the champion.
I already ate.
I'll write him

Aaaarrgh! *Shuts eyes and assumes the foetal position*

Heh, the punctuation within quotes thing annoys me only when it comes to apostraphes ending at the end of a quote.

"Blah was telling me about this 'thing'".

The apostraphe messed with the quote marks, but if you stuck a fullstop there, you'd have the whole .". thing again

Originally Posted by Identity

Just reading a Wikipedia article on American grammar makes me nauseous.

Pittsburgh is the champion.
I already ate.
I'll write him

Aaaarrgh! *Shuts eyes and assumes the foetal position*
[/b]

Ahahaha

Originally Posted by Identity

i.e. Well, I thought it meant "for example" but I
looked it up in the dictionary and it said "that is (to say)" which I think
is about the same as "for example".
Apostrophe is used, in the circumstances, as a possessive. So if
the subject (Chris) is singular, meaning one, you add 's (Chris's house).
If the subject (a group of philosophers or United States) is plural, meaning
more than one and already has an s at the end, you just add an apostrophe
(philosophers' point of view or the United States' view).
[/b]

Just to tie onto this, you don't do this with plural words though!

Eg. "People's republic of China", not "Peoples' republic of China"

I have seen in sentences a comma used with but after it and with out.
Which is correct?

• She's got freckles on her, but she is nice.

• She's got freckles on her but she is nice.

She's got freckles on her Butt. She is nice.

I always use commas, maybe more than I should actually. To me, it's like a break in the flow to emphasize a specific part of the sentence. I always thought it made sentences easier to read in text.

Originally Posted by Burns

I always use commas, maybe more than I should actually. To me, it's like a break in the flow to emphasize a specific part of the sentence. I always thought it made sentences easier to read in text.

Your sentence structure is consistently excellent, Burns. The above quote is a typical example of your fine writing style, using perfectly constructed modifiers separated by commas.

There's no need for commas before "but". There are cases in which there is a comma before it but that's if there's a break in the flow of the sentence for some reason.

She has freckles on her but she is nice.
She has freckles on her, indeed, but she is nice.

That's the swiftest example I can come up with for a contrast.

Originally Posted by AirRick101

Quotes are for reference or emphasis

No, no, no, no, no!! Quotes are NOT for emphasis. This is one of my big pet peaves, and it is a complete misunderstanding of their purpose.

There are two uses for quotation marks, the first of which everyone seems to grasp: defining a section that comes from another source, such as words spoken in conversation or the text of a cited article.

The second is similar in idea, but works as a summary reference to a concept, and implies there is no necessary agreement between the current speaker and the citation itself. The easiest way to get this idea across is to exchange the quotes for the phrase "so-called," or "alleged."

For example, if I say to you:

I finally got to meet John's "beautiful" wife.

Does it sound to you like I thought she was beautiful? Of course not. The sentence implies that John has been telling us how beautiful his wife is, but she turned out to be less than stunning. It is functionally the same as saying "I finally got to meet John's alledgedly beautiful wife.

This is why I always laugh when I see a store advertising something like:

Come in for the "lowest prices in town!"

It immediately suggests that they are in fact NOT the lowest in town.

Originally Posted by Merlock

There's no need for commas before "but". There are cases in which there is a comma before it but that's if there's a break in the flow of the sentence for some reason.

She has freckles on her but she is nice.
She has freckles on her, indeed, but she is nice.

That's the swiftest example I can come up with for a contrast.

"She has freckles on her" is a complete sentence. "but she is nice" is a final modifier. A comma is required. The "indeed" in the second example is an additional modifier, not a medial modifier.

She has freckles on her, but she is nice.
She has freckles on her, indeed.
She has freckles on her, indeed, but she is nice.

Originally Posted by xcrissxcrossx

Even though it is improper grammer, This annoys me

I asked Tom if he liked my new car and he said "Yes, it is very nice."

I think that if there are quotation marks the period should be outside of the quote. but if it is the end of a sentence in the quote AND the accual sentence, it should be added to both, not just the quote. like this.

I asked Tom if he liked my new car and he said "Yes, it is very nice.".

That is my pet peeve of english grammar.

I agree. While I can't stand bad grammar (especially idiots who can't get the fucking they're/there/their right), the punctuation inside the quotes thing really makes me angry, because as a software engineer, it does not parse. To me, having punctuation inside quotes like that is just as unsightly as having (mismatched [ brackets) all over] the place.

Originally Posted by Replicon

I agree. While I can't stand bad grammar (especially idiots who can't get the fucking they're/there/their right), the punctuation inside the quotes thing really makes me angry, because as a software engineer, it does not parse. To me, having punctuation inside quotes like that is just as unsightly as having (mismatched [ brackets) all over] the place.

This is kind of funny, actually. I'm both a programmer and a "grammar-Nazi," and I've made the same comparison. However, the period inside the quotation mark rule is really a rule of style rather than grammar. I worked for a desktop publishing firm for a number of years, and have Strunk & White forever stuck in my brain.

It seems to me it should sound as if you are talking. Meaning the same breaks in the sentence.

Thanks every one.

A poor nervous dude's date with Burns back in the day.
Hi, Burns, You look nice, tonight .................How are, You? Here are ummmm, some, flowers for you, if you want them.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Originally Posted by Howie

A poor nervous dude's date with Burns back in the day.
Hi, Burns, You look nice, tonight .................How are, You? Here are ummmm, some, flowers for you, if you want them.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Why thank you... I guess I should've mentioned that I'm allergic to lillies, I hope you don't mind... but I can make it up to you in other ways...

:p Shall we refer back to the fetish pages? lol

examples:

Joe's state is Ohio.
Since it is not actually Joes. Do you add an apostrophe?

Ohio is Joe's state. Just like you can say that your mother is Howie's mother. Basicly if it is like a situation that doesnt involve physical ownage, only if it is because of a law or other type, Than it can be reversed. Since talons are physically on a birds foot, you cant say that the bird is on the talon's body, because psysically the body is the main part of the bird.


Quotes:

Seeker said that ice dawg said " blah blah bla blalbla"
Who are you actually quoting? Seeker said it, But it is once removed.
I would guess the original person?

You are quoting Seeker, Because you said that seeker said it.


And when you quote words. For what reason? Other than what they were meant for, Quoting others words

Howitzer is acting a bit "freakish" this morning.
Words with emphasise?

I'm not sure that is official grammar, I think people just started doing that for no reason. but in that case it is to emphasise freakish.

Edit: I just remembered. In that situation you are quoting what someone else said still usually. But in that situation the qotation is the opposite of how you actually feel. That quotation is wrong, unless you consider what i said before the edit.

Originally Posted by xcrissxcrossx

Howitzer is acting a bit "freakish" this morning.
Words with emphasise?

The sample is fine, but this is not emphasis. For emphasis, the proper style is italics. (Underlines only came about because the old typewriters couldn't do italics.)

Please see my above post regarding the misuse of quotation marks for emphasis.

In your sample, there is an implied meaning of "as people like to say." This turns it into a virtual quotation.

Grammar nazi's die