Thread: Fighting -- How to Fight

Originally Posted by drew

I hope you all realise that none of these alleged 'masters' who spend years meditating next to tea pots have ever participated in a tournament.

All the fancy sounding martial arts tend to be the least effective. Fighting isn't complicated, but to make it marketable, family-orientated fighting-for-fun organisations like GKR sprouted and introduced hundreds of useless 'moves'. You do not need to learn how to block a double punch. If someone tries a double punch, send them to the dentist.

Tskk....

And drew, don't be disrespectful man. Eastern martial arts were designed to kill, nothing else. If someone tell you they are for beauty and art they're bullshitting. And some of the old masters you are talking about can probably murder you if they wanted to. But try and step out to the martial art world and I guarantee your view will be changed in less than a week lol.

Originally Posted by Lucidness

He could kick you right in your balls now.

No he couldn't, at least not effectively. His weight is not distributed on his legs to kick without breaking balance. Ninja could just continue more easily with any of a variety of take-downs.

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I've noticed there's a general idea that kicks are not to be used in 'real fighting'. This is not true to my experience. I have used a strong jumping scissor kick myself in a 'real street fight', and it worked wonders in the situation, I strongly disagree with any definitive mentality that something does not work in a real fight, there's things that are very applicable in certain circumstances. I'm not physically stronger than most who decide to pick fights with me, I just react quicker, more decisively and unexpectedly, and I'm sure that I can attribute that to my being the last man standing. Sometimes all a fight takes is a single punch, where a kick would end up with you on the ground; at other times a kick may be the only thing that can stop you from getting there.

Originally Posted by ClouD

No he couldn't, at least not effectively. His weight is not distributed on his legs to kick without breaking balance. Ninja could just continue more easily with any of a variety of take-downs.

Not to mention that that is a photograph. As ninja said - in that very same post - a good kick takes less than a second to execute. The guy he is kicking is very visibly try to keep his balance. By the time his mind would have been able to work out that "holy shit, his balls are unguarded!!" (which they are really not, because the guy has no effective way of getting to them), he might have eaten three more shots.

Originally Posted by ClouD

I've noticed there's a general idea that kicks are not to be used in 'real fighting'. This is not true to my experience. I have used a strong jumping scissor kick myself in a 'real street fight', and it worked wonders in the situation, I strongly disagree with any definitive mentality that something does not work in a real fight, there's things that are very applicable in certain circumstances. I'm not physically stronger than most who decide to pick fights with me, I just react quicker, more decisively and unexpectedly, and I'm sure that I can attribute that to my being the last man standing. Sometimes all a fight takes is a single punch, where a kick would end up with you on the ground; at other times a kick may be the only thing that can stop you from getting there.

I agree with this. What a lot of people don't understand is that you don't just throw kicks out, all willy-nilly. Make no mistake, they do sacrifice balance for power, but they are effective. You don't just walk up to someone, who is fully expecting an attack, and throw an axe kick at them. If someone has a strong, defensive stance, you don't just throw a roundhouse at them. There is a time for those moves - usually when your opponent is stunned, or you've thrown enough repetitive moves of a different type, that your opponent is expecting another one, in succession. Then, you switch it up and give them the boot instead.

And as far as just punching quickly and not stopping until your opponent is unconscious: That method works great, considering you actually land that first punch. But if your opponent knows anything about how to fight, he's going to pick apart your slugger-style, and either defend until you tire yourself out, or exploit your own, non-existent, defense.

Originally Posted by bonthan

And drew, don't be disrespectful man. Eastern martial arts were designed to kill, nothing else. If someone tell you they are for beauty and art they're bullshitting. And some of the old masters you are talking about can probably murder you if they wanted to. But try and step out to the martial art world and I guarantee your view will be changed in less than a week lol.

Laughable 'macho' crap. Of course someone who dedicates their life to fighting could beat me in a fight. Wouldn't it be interesting, though, to see them compete - just compete - in the UFC? I'm not being disrespectful, but Eastern martial arts are way over rated, and some of them (I'm looking at you Taekwondo) are utterly useless. Styles like BJJ, boxing & kick boxing, Muai Thai, krav maga and numerous others are far superior to any akido, wushu, tai chi crap. People place these arts on a pedestal because of their ancient origins; well guess what. Ancient arts act as a breeding ground for dogma, and that's why more modern arts have surpassed them, because they're willing to adapt.

Originally Posted by drew

Laughable 'macho' crap. Of course someone who dedicates their life to fighting could beat me in a fight. Wouldn't it be interesting, though, to see them compete - just compete - in the UFC? I'm not being disrespectful, but Eastern martial arts are way over rated, and some of them (I'm looking at you Taekwondo) are utterly useless. Styles like BJJ, boxing & kick boxing, Muai Thai, krav maga and numerous others are far superior to any akido, wushu, tai chi crap. People place these arts on a pedestal because of their ancient origins; well guess what. Ancient arts act as a breeding ground for dogma, and that's why more modern arts have surpassed them, because they're willing to adapt.

What I think is kinda laughable is your complete disregard for (and, as it looks, lack of education of) those ancient, dogmatic arts.

You can't put all martial arts into one category and say "Ok, now which is better?" (And the fact that you even put Tai-Chi in the mix is hilarious.) Ancient styles like Aikido and Wushu are about more than just effectively defending yourself. They are NOT boxing. They are NOT Muay Thai, and they don't try to be. Will mastering them make you an effective fighter? Yes. Will mastering them make you King of the World, and No Other Discipline or Method can take you down? No.

Your argument is pretty much as moot as someone saying "What good is learning how to fight, when someone can just pull out a gun and shoot you?" (as I believe was said in this thread, already). It's flowery rhetoric, that doesn't really have anything to do with the topic - or any, general, self-defense situation.

If You (and I'm not talking about some Muay Thai expert. I'm talking about YOU) cross-paths with a wushu expert, guess what? The odds are that you're going to end up face-first on the pavement. If a Taekwondo master goes up against a boxing intermediate, there's a good chance the TKD master would win. Is it a given? No.

In a real-world situation, the odds of your having to defend yourself against Chuck Liddell are slim to none. So if you are skilled in any martial art, your chances of winning your everyday scrap are pretty damn high.

Just like your odds of needing to defend yourself with your hands and feet are miles higher than the odds of needing to defend yourself with a gun. Follow?

More than that, though, arts like Aikido, Wushu (and yes, I'll even throw Tai-Chi in there, since it's more fitting to this particular point) are about a relationship with your body and mind, outside of a the spectrum of pure fighting. They are about coordination and balance. They are about elegance and temperament. They are multi-faceted - not just about hurting people. Do they give you maximum, pinnacle fighting prowess? Will you be able to meet any challenge and adapt to any situation, through any particular discipline? No. Common sense (and MMA) would tell you that a combination of styles helps the fighter adapt to circumstance. But, to say that knowing a style like TKD is utterly useless - in a thread about knowing how to fight (in general) - is ridiculous. We're not talking about fighting GSP, here.

If you've got an axe to grind with traditional martial arts, you should do it in a thread where your grudge is actually relevant, instead of coming in here and disrespecting people for their disciplines, for no credible reason. Don't ya think?

I just bought a US Marine CQC manual from Ebay for about 15 bux and it does very nicely. Teaches some interesting cold-blooded moves, but the many of the manuevers are meant to be used in warzones where killing and crippling is permitted. So it's sort of dangerous to myself know that information if I were to ever snap and lose control. Thankfully I've never done that, though.

Originally Posted by drew

I'm not being disrespectful, but Eastern martial arts are way over rated, and some of them (I'm looking at you Taekwondo) are utterly useless.

Depends on what kind of Taekwon-Do dude... WTF Taekwon-Do is a sport which basically looks like fancy dancing, but ITF Taekwon-Do is a very complete martial art that was designed to be taught to soldiers (much like Krav Maga) during the Korean War. I don't have much experience with schools outside of the two main organizations, but a lot of them are all about money and are of pretty crap quality.

For comparison:

WTF

ITF

Remember that Taekwon-Do sparring is about points, not knock-outs (usually). I know that my technique would change somewhat if it was no longer about points.

Originally Posted by drew

Laughable 'macho' crap. Of course someone who dedicates their life to fighting could beat me in a fight. Wouldn't it be interesting, though, to see them compete - just compete - in the UFC? I'm not being disrespectful, but Eastern martial arts are way over rated, and some of them (I'm looking at you Taekwondo) are utterly useless. Styles like BJJ, boxing & kick boxing, Muai Thai, krav maga and numerous others are far superior to any akido, wushu, tai chi crap. People place these arts on a pedestal because of their ancient origins; well guess what. Ancient arts act as a breeding ground for dogma, and that's why more modern arts have surpassed them, because they're willing to adapt.

For one thing you can't compare the martial arts, if you don't know that then there's no point in arguing. The only thing you can compare in martial arts is the practitioner. Like I said, martial art was made for killing and self-defense, yet you keep mentioning the fact that Eastern Martial Arts are not popular in UFC.

Let me tell you something, you would not have a problem fighting someone weaker than you, but you will have problem fighting someone stronger. This is where martial arts come in, it teaches the weak to fight against the strong, if it doesn't work then the art would've died a looooong time ago, but it survived till this day. What i mean is when comparing martial arts, the ring is not a good place, because real fights don't last minutes and with a referee.

Eastern martial arts are NOT overrated, it's just that in these modern times people don't both to train as hard or if they train it would be for the ring so the problem is the practictioner, not the art itself.

Like for example, the Vietnamese rebels used Vo Tay Son to fight against the French in the French colonization of Vietnam in 1920s, now people laugh at the art but they forgot that in that time an 5 feet 2 inch tall rebel (average height for Vietnamese in that time) can kill a nearly six feet tall French soldier (and I mean soldier), many of them are even taller, in a couple of seconds, hand to hand. This is not myth but documented history. How did they do that? They train all the time and they trained to kill, not to compete.

Drew, I find your opinion invalid and highly irrelevant to this topic. You have obviously not extensively trained nor have a lot of real fighting experience. I have used more TKD style kicks than Muay Thai style kicks in fights, as for me they are more powerful and less naturally predictable. I have used practical moves from Aikido with devastating affect to an opponent. The same Aikido techniques that are used by police and military forces around the world. What is really over-rated is the style-over-skill attitude that you seem to assume with your statements.

This thread is not for discussion of your consideration that 'traditional' martial arts are 'useless' in comparison to other fighting styles.

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Multiple attackers:
In circumstances where you're out-numbered and can't get away, strike first and with deadly force. If there are multiple attackers, your chances of literally just living through a serious fight are much lower. Chances are, when you're on the ground and over-powered you're going to be repeatedly kicked, and a full power kick to the head can easily kill a person. The potential for situation to become fatal is multiplied, and this is why I say you should use deadly force with the first strike, and every strike.
Go for the throat or the nose, with your fingers or palm respectively. Move immediately to the next nearest threat/s and stun or disorientate if possible before running away.
You are not likely going to KO or kill every single person before they get one decent hit in, and once they do, many more decent hits will follow. You would have to have as much speed, strength and stamina as all of your attackers together if they managed to get against you squarely, so unless you undoubtedly have that, then run away.

When striking to the throat with your fingers you can hurt your fingers quite easily. Keep your hand and fingers straight and in line with your wrist, using the force of your arm to do the work. You can also strike to the throat with a knife-hand, the webbing between your thumb and index finger and even a punch (though it is harder to hit with). If you hit someone directly and strongly in the throat you can displace the Adam's apple, hit a carotid artery, cause major swelling or collapse of the trachea. With decent force the person will collapse immediately and will suffer side-effects from weeks to months after, if not death from swelling.

Originally Posted by ClouD

Drew, I find your opinion invalid and highly irrelevant to this topic. You have obviously not extensively trained nor have a lot of real fighting experience. I have used more TKD style kicks than Muay Thai style kicks in fights, as for me they are more powerful and less naturally predictable. I have used practical moves from Aikido with devastating affect to an opponent. The same Aikido techniques that are used by police and military forces around the world. What is really over-rated is the style-over-skill attitude that you seem to assume with your statements.

This thread is not for discussion of your consideration that 'traditional' martial arts are 'useless' in comparison to other fighting styles.

----

Multiple attackers:
In circumstances where you're out-numbered and can't get away, strike first and with deadly force. If there are multiple attackers, your chances of literally just living through a serious fight are much lower. Chances are, when you're on the ground and over-powered you're going to be repeatedly kicked, and a full power kick to the head can easily kill a person. The potential for situation to become fatal is multiplied, and this is why I say you should use deadly force with the first strike, and every strike.
Go for the throat or the nose, with your fingers or palm respectively. Move immediately to the next nearest threat/s and stun or disorientate if possible before running away.
You are not likely going to KO or kill every single person before they get one decent hit in, and once they do, many more decent hits will follow. You would have to have as much speed, strength and stamina as all of your attackers together if they managed to get against you squarely, so unless you undoubtedly have that, then run away.

When striking to the throat with your fingers you can hurt your fingers quite easily. Keep your hand and fingers straight and in line with your wrist, using the force of your arm to do the work. You can also strike to the throat with a knife-hand, the webbing between your thumb and index finger and even a punch (though it is harder to hit with). If you hit someone directly and strongly in the throat you can displace the Adam's apple, hit a carotid artery, cause major swelling or collapse of the trachea. With decent force the person will collapse immediately and will suffer side-effects from weeks to months after, if not death from swelling.

True. You can hit one of the 36 weak points in the human body and take care of the multiple attackers without wasting too much energy, but it is extremely hard. In Shaolin we were taught to backup and let them come at you one by one and strike hard in the weak points, but if we can't or get too surrounded, we were told to pick the smallest attacker and kill or KO him, then run away as fast as possible.

But yeah Cloud you are right, when dealing with street fight we can't and don't have time to test or play with your opponent, every strike has to be fatal, this is where martial arts excel, yet somebody can't seem to see that *coughs drew coughs*.

And Drew, this is what I am trying to get at:

UFC fighter: Ok, you are going to go on the ring and fight me.
Martial artist: Alrighhht, can I chop you on the neck?
UFC fighter: No.
Martial artist: How about the Adam apple?
UFC fighter: No.
Martial artist: How about hitting at the back of the neck?
UFC fighter: No.
Martial artist: Eyes gouging?
UFC fighter: nuh uh.
Martial artist: Ok, ok, how about striking in the balls, can I at least do that, please?
UFC fighter: Not allowed.
Martial artist: So what do I do?
UFC fighter: You watch Brokeback Mountain? You can tackle or grapple me like that. And box with your gloves ON.
Martial artist: FFFFFUUUUUUUUU!!!!!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Originally Posted by DarkLucideity

funny how a gun and 10 feet renders everything you know utterly useless

It will render anything you are and know utterly useless. That is what usually happens when you die.

Don't know about others but I don't train gun defences from 10+ feet unarmed. Thus I don't see much point in your sentence. I train special forces though so we have plenty of weapon disarming and use of knife and gun in close combat. Usually all the martial skills are just used to get time to shoot or stab your opponent.

Naturally they are taught to eliminate their opponents unarmed too, but if the distance is plenty we tend to shoot them ourselves. .


I already feel bad to be dragged yet in another martial arts debate thread. Well, I am only one to blame

This is after all only splitting words and most of these things could be pointed a lot better in real life. If any one of you wander near Finland anytime, I am more than glad show you real fighting.

Unelias, I'd love to know some tips here for fighting if you're willing to share them. =D
They're no doubt more combat orientated, as opposed to street / ring fighting. I've rarely practised with military-trained people (only two guys come to mind), but I have trained with quite a few police officers.

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Help?
I have a pretty big fighting weakness when it comes to throwing the first punch with people my own age, I usually talk myself out of it with some [valid] excuse. I've been hit in the face, sprayed in the eyes, all because I have hesitated with hitting first.

It's always "don't want to hurt them" or something. There is a definite feeling of wanting to elevate it to a level where I feel really justified. This really only happens when the attacker/s are around my age, I feel sort of uneasy with it, like we should have a bond but we don't, I dunno. With that uneasiness mixed with adrenaline I can sometimes get infuriated; certainly not what I want before the punches start rolling.

Does anyone have tips on how I can overcome this?

Originally Posted by ClouD

Unelias, I'd love to know some tips here for fighting if you're willing to share them. =D
They're no doubt more combat orientated, as opposed to street / ring fighting. I've rarely practised with military-trained people (only two guys come to mind), but I have trained with quite a few police officers.

For me fighting is combat. There is no other way. For example, I don't regard most of the martial arts as combat or even as fighting. I.e Sport karate is just playing tag for me, same is the most brances of Taekwondo or similar.

For you asking tips, well it's quite large topic, so if you can put it in form of a question I can gladly answer.

Originally Posted by ClouD

Help?
I have a pretty big fighting weakness when it comes to throwing the first punch with people my own age, I usually talk myself out of it with some [valid] excuse. I've been hit in the face, sprayed in the eyes, all because I have hesitated with hitting first.

It's always "don't want to hurt them" or something. There is a definite feeling of wanting to elevate it to a level where I feel really justified. This really only happens when the attacker/s are around my age, I feel sort of uneasy with it, like we should have a bond but we don't, I dunno. With that uneasiness mixed with adrenaline I can sometimes get infuriated; certainly not what I want before the punches start rolling.

Does anyone have tips on how I can overcome this?

Hmm. Well I could give the same tip I teach when using force. Draw a certain line in your mind, after the assailant has stepped over that line you *will* act. We use this, for example, when to decide to use baton, spray or a firearm. I.e if he grabs you, then you will act. If he crosses that line and comes too close, you will act.

This is more or less my own way to deal with things, but I share it nontheless. If someone is going to assault me or threathens me, I am very unforgiving in such a cases. A verbal warning will suffice. If they don't have brains to believe a verbal warning, well then physical one shall be used. It is the very same we use in the army or police. If lesser means won't do, we must go one step higher to supress the assaulter. In this case, from verbal to physical. If simple arm lock or punch is not enough and he will not calm down, we go to choke him etc.

-Un

Originally Posted by ClouD

Help?
I have a pretty big fighting weakness when it comes to throwing the first punch with people my own age, I usually talk myself out of it with some [valid] excuse. I've been hit in the face, sprayed in the eyes, all because I have hesitated with hitting first.

It's always "don't want to hurt them" or something. There is a definite feeling of wanting to elevate it to a level where I feel really justified. This really only happens when the attacker/s are around my age, I feel sort of uneasy with it, like we should have a bond but we don't, I dunno. With that uneasiness mixed with adrenaline I can sometimes get infuriated; certainly not what I want before the punches start rolling.

Does anyone have tips on how I can overcome this?

Personally, I've practiced much with just being relaxed, and focusing on the opponent as an object rather than a person, just so I can disregard all that would prevent me from fighting as I should be. I look through them, maintaining focus on arms and legs and whole body movement, with no cognitive thinking towards anything emotionally. Once I get into this mindset, all I need to do is move around for a few seconds, possibly create an opening, or take an opening.

Generally what I do is combinations right after the first punch-- it's likely that they're focusing intently on what may come of the first punch, so they're likely to do something silly like block with two hands or something. This isn't always the case, but what IS always the case is that they'll create an opening, that YOU'RE ready to take and they're not ready to block. Usually a hook to the ribs or to the belly or a hook with the same arm to the head is something that can be thrown after the opening is exposed.

But yeah, actually throwing the first punch is a matter of your mental relaxation. If you anticipate nothing, you will accept all that shows itself, and think not of possibility. Half of your focus is taken away when you're thinking about the other person's intentions. Of course, it's unwise to expect them not to do anything, but that's expecting again. Know, don't think. Know exactly what your intentions are, and know exactly what will happen after you throw it. Don't take the time to debate the possibilities, just know-- "After I throw this punch, he will block." but which block? If he counters, with what? If you're relaxed and away from anticipation towards anything, you'll be able to see what's coming at you in the moment it comes at you.

After I got the hang of keeping a cool head like this, I was SO much better of a fighter. I became quicker, effective blocks were more frequent, and I was less tired. A constant adrenaline rush will kill you after it fades out, especially if you're way too tense throughout the ordeal. R e l a x. J u s t D o i t. There's so much truth in the statement.

I fight like this

Haha nice, I hate those kinda of people too