Long Term Effects of Galantamine+Choline Without Piracetam (Yuschak Primary Trigger)

**theshirecat** · 02-22-2023 07:50 PM

Hi all,

I was wondering if there are any long term consequences for using Galantamine and Choline about once a week...then I reviewed Yushak's book a bit more closely and came to the answer on my own. I am posting it here for anybody else who may be concerned as I was. Obviously, a healthy dose of caution is still advised for any supplement...but the author did address this issue. I did do some due diligence to see if this question was already posed, but I would be lying if I said I checked every single thread/group.

Basically: Even without Piracetam to 'reset' acetylcholine levels sooner, the brain will adjust and regain normal sensitivity if you use correct dosing and wait long enough...4 days based on Galantamine's 48 hour timing and Choline's 12 hour timing.

In Thomas Yuschak's Advanced Lucid Dreaming: The Power of Supplements Chapter 18, he talks about how desensitization from boosted acetylcholine receptors can can cause acetylcholine receptors to lose sensitivity. He also covers long term and short term desensitization:

Desensitization, on the other hand, must be avoided.
Desensitization is a physiological event. Galantamine causes
increased levels of acetylcholine to be present in the brain for up to
48 hours after you take a dose. This increased concentration can
literally cause the receptors that the acetylcholine binds with to start
to lose their sensitivity. This means that in order to have the same
physiological effect you will need to increase the acetylcholine levels
even further (i.e. take a larger dose of Galantamine) in order to get
the same effect as you had with the initial doses. The larger dose
causes further desensitization and hence a vicious cycle continues
until one reaches a high enough dose that negative side effects begin
to surface. Fortunately clinical studies show that Galantamine does
not cause long term desensitization. Short term desensitization can
be countered by letting the level of acetylcholine within the brain
return to its normal state for some period of time before taking
another dose.

Happy dreaming ya'll.

**WilliamThirteen** · 02-24-2023 03:59 PM

Hello theshirecat,

thanks for your message. I take choline supplements quite often as nootropics and experience no ill effect. As you note, our brains seek to maintain homeostasis and, in the absence of an AChEI like Galantamine or Huperzine, AChE will remove excess ACh from the system. Yuschak suggests using Piracetam to speed up the process as Piracetam is observed to increase the function of ACh with certain receptors. I think of it as "mopping up" excess ACh. I cannot recall if Yuschak mentions this but if one takes Piracetam (or other Racetams) with little or no ACh availability, a common side effect is the "icepick headache" - which is, as the name would imply, quite uncomfortable, but easily remedied by adding an ACh source. Lastly, while Yuschak only mentions Piracetam, in recent years a number of other Racetam variants have come on stream, some of which are more efficient than Piracetam and require smaller amounts for similar results.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racetam

Enthusiasts would have us believe that each of these variants has a slightly different effect on cognition, memory, mood, etc.

As always, before taking any supplement it recommended to have a discussion with a trusted physician regarding benefits, side effects, or other concerns.

Wishing you all a dreamy weekend!

William

**theshirecat** · 02-24-2023 04:15 PM

Hi William,

Thanks for the info and context! I didn't know about this icepick headache symptom, so I think you're right about Yuschak not going into it. At least for Piracetam, I can't get it through regular sources, so I was seeking to determine whether I can go without (and it seems like I can).

**WilliamThirteen** · 02-24-2023 04:41 PM

Where do you live? I am in Berlin where it is also difficult to acquire Piracetam, though i believe one can purchase it over the counter in the Czech Republic.
Other Racetam's are easily found at various nootropics vendors in Europe and the UK, as well as in the US.

Wm

**theshirecat** · 02-24-2023 06:05 PM

I'm in the USA. When I said regular sources I was referring to Amazon and local pharmacies. I was able to get Choline Bitartrate and Galantamine easily through Amazon, while Piracetam was not available. I did find a source that ships from North Carolina, but that was one step further than I was willing to go in terms of convenience/cost. Maybe down the line I will try it, but as it stands one supplement-assisted LD attempt a week seems alright to me.

**WilliamThirteen** · 02-24-2023 06:27 PM

In the US Oxiracetam and Phenylpiracetam are probably easily found. But, as you note, one can also just let the regular AChE process settle the levels back down. I am continuing to experiment and, as i find it sometimes difficult to return to sleep after WBTB with Galantamine, I am also going to look into Huperzine. I haven't yet tried any of the secondary or tertiary supplements mentioned in Yuschak's text.

Of course, my end goal is to forgo supplementation altogether IF possible.

Wm