Thread: Your All Wrong

I beg to differ. You are wrong.
I don't deny that the placebo affect in many cases is the outcome.
But hypnosis and placebo are two entirely different things.

And as far as supplements. No one is claiming that This herb or that vitamin is a Lucid dream application. It is called enhancement.
Just as an athlete may use supplements to enhance their physical abilities. Their abilities are still there, just enhanced by a supplement.

i remeber on a bbc channel a program called industruable where to brother were give beer but one was non-alcoholic beer and both show sigh of being drunk all the lucid aid work like this their no special effect just the placebo effect.[/b]

Old news.

I beg to differ. You are wrong.
I don't deny that the placebo affect in many cases is the outcome.
But hypnosis and placebo are two entirely different things. [/b]

well that beer experiment just show how expectation can produce a effect in this case belife that someone drunk this is great proof hypnosis is fake because no trance was used but hypnotic effect was captured.

And as far as supplements. No one is claiming that This herb or that vitamin is a Lucid dream application. It is called enhancement.
Just as an athlete may use supplements to enhance their physical abilities. Their abilities are still there, just enhanced by a supplement.[/b]

yes but were dealing with your mind not body see body work on muscle and gland not synapes, axon and dendrites see their too different thing and as i say you brain counteract all changes too brain in a matter of minuate smoking is a good explample your brain get chemical that stimulate nerve but then a second later your nerve relase depressant to stop the effect their is no function of muscle and gland to do this.

Old news.[/b]

well this is like having a discussion on the universe and then somebody mention einstein theory and the proof of that theory explaining to someone why their wrong or their assumption are wrong and then the person says old news wtf this mean little it still true and still and argument you didnt discuss this all you did was dismiss it because it proves you wrong or infintly worse it old aarrrrghhhhhhh.

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

well this is like having a discussion on the universe and then somebody mention einstein theory and the proof of that theory explaining to someone why their wrong or their assumption are wrong and then the person says old news wtf this mean little it still true and still and argument you didnt discuss this all you did was dismiss it because it proves you wrong or infintly worse it old aarrrrghhhhhhh.[/b]

You are right. I apologize. To me it just supports the idea that it is different.

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

well that beer experiment just show how expectation can produce a effect in this case belife that someone drunk this is great proof hypnosis is fake because no trance was used but hypnotic effect was captured.

yes but were dealing with your mind not body see body work on muscle and gland not synapes, axon and dendrites see their too different thing and as i say you brain counteract all changes too brain in a matter of minuate smoking is a good explample your brain get chemical that stimulate nerve but then a second later your nerve relase depressant to stop the effect their is no function of muscle and gland to do this.[/b]

The mind is an organ too. It is suspect to physical elements as well. But yes, I agree that the brain is too open to suggestion.
The placebo effect is, as you pointed out done so without the person's knowledge. Then expectation overrides fundamental judgment.
In the case of hypnosis ,while it may be artificial in some means, it is susceptibility suggested by ones own self. Auto suggestion.
They may both be a matter of faith. But by ignoring the fact that supplements are a placebo you would be throwing out the window the many chemical changes that DO occur with the addition of a substance having no pharmacological effect but given merely to satisfy a patient who supposes it to be a medicine.

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

if you have read all that you could proberly see that nearly all the technique work because of placebo effect e.g. b6, herbs, binuaral beat, hypnosis e.t.c. see b6 as a explample it is a known fact like smoking that when your brain get some stimulate or extra chemical it compensate for it so it stay in equilbrium the good effect caused by b6 are none because your brain stops it. like at the top your expect it too work so it does their no special property all lucid aid dont work it just the placebo like i remeber on a bbc channel a program called industruable where to brother were give beer but one was non-alcoholic beer and both show sigh of being drunk all the lucid aid work like this their no special effect just the placebo effect.
[/b]

The only thing that might be a placebo effect on that list is hypnonsis.

Your brain does not compensate quickly enough for an overload of B6, that is why you are not supposed to take it everyday. Neither does it compensate for when you get high or else there would be no such thing as stoners.

These substances DO effect your brain.

Other then that, use commas - you won't get your point across when your stuff is annoying to read

Your problem, becomingagodo, is that you're applying an old concept (the placebo effect) and attributing it to things you'd like to think are simply placebo effects, though you have absolutely no evidence to support the claim.
True, many things can be attributed to placebo, but it still takes investigation to find out which of those things can. Hypnosis isn't a placebo effect just because you say it is. It's been used well over enough times to have at least some credibility, setting a stage for a debate over whether or not it is placebo. It's not automatically fake simply because the placebo effect exists.

Hypnosis works on the basis of the subject being open to it and comfortably willing to let the affect take it's course. Whether or not it's placebo doesn't matter at all because because it's fundamentally stated that the subject Must be somewhat expectant of its success. This is not the same as, say, testing the validity of a vitamin. One is induced by cooperative relaxation, the other is (allegedly) a chemical reaction. There is a world of difference.

On the flip side, intoxicants like alcohol, weed, etc. are succeptable (sp?) to being neutralized without giving any affect to the host, just like you said. However this does not mean that the substance is not working. It is simply eveidence that the placebo affect works Both Ways and just like it can be proven that a "dummy" substance can produce a false affect on the subject, the subject's mind has the ability to receive an unaffected outcome from the drug (or aid), as well.

The only thing that might be a placebo effect on that list is hypnonsis.

Your brain does not compensate quickly enough for an overload of B6, that is why you are not supposed to take it everyday. Neither does it compensate for when you get high or else there would be no such thing as stoners.

These substances DO effect your brain.

Other then that, use commas - you won't get your point across when your stuff is annoying to read [/b]

yes your brain does compensate.

Now, a team of University of Michigan scientists is reporting new evidence of why that might be: Smoking produces major changes in the flow of “feel good” chemicals between brain cells, both temporarily and long-term. And those changes in flow match up with changes in how smokers say they feel before and after smoking.[/b]

also the case of two drunk people where one was given non alcholic beer and got drunk. the person did not get any alcholic substance but still acted funny this is caused by placebo effect and could explain why somebody can get stone even if their no chemicals.

Fifteen years ago, researchers at three medical centers undertook a study of aspirin and another blood thinner in heart patients and came up with an unexpected result that said little about the heart and much about the brain. At two locations, patients were warned of possible gastrointestinal problems, one of the most common side effects of repeated use of aspirin. At the other location, patients received no such caution.

When researchers reviewed the data, they found a striking result: Those warned about the gastrointestinal problems were almost three times as likely to have the side effect. Though the evidence of actual stomach damage such as ulcers was the same for all three groups, those with the most information about the prospect of minor problems were the most likely to experience the pain. [/b]

see your belife in something can increase likely hood of placebo like in this paitence believe their get gastrointestinal problem got them and people who werent told you could get it more likely did not it same with nearly all chemical. these substance might effect your brain at the beginning but then brain stops it well unless were dealing with powerful illegal stimulate that your brain get a dependency like herione but then you could explain this in similar ways but with classical and operent conditioning. the point is it a placebo effect their no change in your brain it just expectation it going to work and the novel psychology effect attach to it called the placebo effect.

Placebo effects occur ONLY if you have experienced the proper effect of the medicament or treatment method. The body "knows" what chemicals the medicine contains, what hormones it stimulates. Then, by tricking your brain into believing that the tablet is real, you can produce the same chemicals in your body. Hypnosis is not a placebo effect.
And please start putting periods and commas in your sentences, its a mess dude. [/b]

not true. well first i didnt say hypnosis was a placebo effect i said that it was a combination of placebo effect, expectation and social complances also the alcohal free bear producing a person drunk because of placebo effect sound like hypnosis but their no trance or induction e.t.c. it just perfect harmony of placebo effect, social complance and expectation. second

A brain-imaging study found that depressed patients who responded to the placebo effect showed changes in cerebral blood flow, which were similar to the changes in brain function seen in patients who responded to anti-depressant medication. (Leuchter 2002) Other studies argue that up to 75% of the effectiveness of anti-depressant medication is due to the placebo-effect rather than the treatment itself. (Khan 2000)[/b]

this suggest that their was no effect or very little 25% they say was due to the chemical of drug so in this case you see that your assumption of your brain stimulating hormones is wrong they havent been given anti depressant before. plus i could argue the opposite that your brain does the opposite by trying to compansate for change in brain causing negative effect like in smoking where your brain slowing changes to fight of effect of smoking. a placebo work perfectly fine without need for chemicals being in your brain and your hormone theory i would like to see where you have got this assumption from you know scientific paper supporting this.

"if you have read all that you could proberly see that nearly all the technique work because of placebo effect e.g. b6, herbs, binuaral beat, hypnosis e.t.c. see b6"[/b]

There is nothing in that passage that even mentions the techniques (aids) you listed. You are throwing in a bunch of examples as if knowing about the placebo effect has anything to do with them.

"the good effect caused by b6 are none because your brain stops it." [/b]

I'd like to see scientific proof of that, please. The brain works to counteract foreign substances, true, but to say that this is action is carried out before the host would feel the effects of, say, the B6 is a stretch. I'd like to see where that assumption came from.

"all lucid aid dont work it just the placebo"[/b]

Again, defining the placebo effect does nothing to evidence "all lucid aid" as being placebo.

"this is great proof hypnosis is fake because no trance was used but hypnotic effect was captured."[/b]

The hypnotic effect was not captured. Someone believing they are experiencing something, when it is simply placebo is Not the "hypnotic effect," in any way, shape or form. It is completely unrelated.

"as i say you brain counteract all changes too brain in a matter of minuate"[/b]

Provide your source for this "fact," please.

"these substance might effect your brain at the beginning but then brain stops it well unless were dealing with powerful illegal stimulate that your brain get a dependency like herione but then you could explain this in similar ways but with classical and operent conditioning. the point is it a placebo effect their no change in your brain it just expectation it going to work and the novel psychology effect attach to it called the placebo effect. "[/b]

The brain even stops illegal stimulants. It's called "wearing off," "coming down," or whatever else you want to call it. It does not mean the stimulants did not work. They have run their course. They have been felt and had an affect on the user and the have dicipated. The legality of a chemical has nothing to do with whether or not it works. It has nothing to do with the Power of the chemical, either. There are legal, over-the-counter and perscription drugs that are just as strong/intoxicating as illegal stimulants. I don't even see where you get that comparison from. Ever hear of date-rape drugs? Given to an unsuspecting person. PROVEN effective. And they are not only "illegals." Xanax is used as a date-rape drug, often and it's sold by perscription. That is to name only one.
For someone highlighting other peoples' assumptions, I see a lot of them continuously popping up in your posts.

well Oneironaut you got me their in hindsight i could have been to quick to judge. you ownly learn so much

Actually we were all just messing with you. All we have said is a lie. And what you said is correct. Thus proving what is call IFPE. (Internet Forum Placebo effect)

Haha! Absolutely

Effects of pyridoxine on dreaming: a preliminary study.
• Ebben M,
• Lequerica A,
• Spielman A.
City College of New York, USA.
The effect of pyridoxine (Vitamin B-6) on dreaming was investigated in a placebo, double-blind study to examine various claims that Vitamin B-6 increases dream vividness or the ability to recall dreams. 12 college students participated in all three treatment conditions, each of which involved ingesting either 100 mg B-6, 250 mg B-6, or a placebo prior to bedtime for a period of five consecutive days. The treatment conditions were completely counterbalanced and a two-day wash-out period occurred between the three five-day treatment blocks. Morning self-reports indicated a significant difference in dream-salience scores (this is a composite score containing measures on vividness, bizarreness, emotionality, and color) between the 250-mg condition and placebo over the first three days of each treatment. The data for dream salience suggests that Vitamin B-6 may act by increasing cortical arousal during periods of rapid eve movement (REM) sleep. An hypothesis is presented involving the role of B-6 in the conversion of tryptophan to serotonin. However, this first study needs to be replicated using the same procedures and also demonstrated in a sleep laboratory before the results can be considered certain.
[/b]

This demonstrates a study about the placebo effect and the vitamin itself. As you can read, nothing is quite certain, but it does act well for preliminary evidence to the case.

I won't bother gathering studies for the others because they have supporters and critics. Hypnosis does show evidence that it may help in certain cases, but it also depends on one's susceptibility. Herbs have been shown in some cases to promote certain things, but there are a lot of people out there that try to take advantage of that and make outrageous claims for the herb they are trying to sell. I'll say that there are some herbs that might help with deep sleeping, and thus may promote lucid dreams, but I doubt any are lucid dream inducing.