Thread: Galantamine + Choline

Originally Posted by dodobird

Are you waiting an hour when doing WBTB before going to sleep?

Yes, exactly. I wait for my alarm clock after 4 or 4.5 h of sleep.
Then I take the supplements and stay awake (out of bed) for almost an hour. During this time I try to get "day conciousness" as good as I can, but there is of course an urge to go back to sleep (the body is still tired).

After I return to bed, I first try to stay awake for about 15 minutes (on my back) then turn to the right side and just wait for the effects to start. Usually I notice the beginning of a REM phase because at some point I get an erection without any sexual arousal. Very often just shortly after that I experience the usual WILD effects and try to get out of bed again, but this time with my dream body.

I didn't know you were supposed to wait an hour. I've been going right back to bed after the galantamine. It seems to work really quickly to; either I WILD right away, or go to sleep and start dreaming, which approximately 75% of the time was lucid, the other times very vivid. I haven't done it that many times, so I don't know if it will continue.

I tried the Calea Z, which worked exactly once, out of approximately 6 disguting times. Yushak says not too do the same thing over and over, so I was going to try to get another couple mixtures that work to alternate with. I see the mucana pruriens doesn't always work.

Spamtek, have you ever tried a nicotine patch?

Originally Posted by lucidus

Yes, exactly. I wait for my alarm clock after 4 or 4.5 h of sleep.
Then I take the supplements and stay awake (out of bed) for almost an hour. During this time I try to get "day conciousness" as good as I can, but there is of course an urge to go back to sleep (the body is still tired).

After I return to bed, I first try to stay awake for about 15 minutes (on my back) then turn to the right side and just wait for the effects to start. Usually I notice the beginning of a REM phase because at some point I get an erection without any sexual arousal. Very often just shortly after that I experience the usual WILD effects and try to get out of bed again, but this time with my dream body.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

I didn't know you were supposed to wait an hour. I've been going right back to bed after the galantamine. It seems to work really quickly to; either I WILD right away, or go to sleep and start dreaming, which approximately 75% of the time was lucid, the other times very vivid. I haven't done it that many times, so I don't know if it will continue.

I guess everyone need to experiment to find the best times that will work for them. Like MoonbeamI I went back to bed right after waking and taking the supplements, but I think I needed to wait longer in bed for the dream to start than lucidus did, so maybe it's really the same.

Next time I try it I will wait longer before going to bed.

Spamtek mentioned trying mucuna pruriens without success.
mucuna pruriens are suggested by Yusckak to improve dream vividness and control, but he said that it can slightly reduce the chance of becoming lucid.

Anyone else has any experience with this?

Mucuna Pruriens contain L-DOPA, a precorsor to Dopamine that crosses the blood-brain-barrier.

Interestingly, the Broad Bean ( Fava Bean ) (Vicia faba) also contain a lot of L-DOPA.
I found on one site ( I don't know how reliable is this site ) that 100gr of Broad Bean (including pods ) contain 250mg of L-DOPA.

Yuschak say that 400 mg of L-DOPA can cause vivid dreams ( sometimes nightmares )
and 80-200mg can be used for dream control ( which applies if you manage to become lucid ), so eating Broad Beans seem to be enough, and if that is the case you don't need to buy Mucuna Pruriens tablets.

Anyone has more insights on this issue?

EDIT: I saw now there was a thread about it, ( http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=35876) where some people said you will go crazy if you take so be careful people. Still I'm interested to know if anyone have some more info on the subject.

Originally Posted by dodobird

Spamtek mentioned trying mucuna pruriens without success.
mucuna pruriens are suggested by Yusckak to improve dream vividness and control, but he said that it can slightly reduce the chance of becoming lucid.

They didn't have it at the store so I thought I'd order it. I'll do some research first (RE: going insane).

Edit: Further research is needed.

I've just carried out my first experiment with Galantamind. Full account in my Dream Journal:

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...335#post477335

Yay, topic's active again. Glad you found that insanity topic on your own, dodobird, else I was going to hunt it down and link it for you. It actually surprised me to find mucuna pruriens on Yuschak's LDS list since I came to the conclusion to try it wholly independently of any dream researcher's opinions. So it's validating to see I wasn't totally off-track, but Alprazolam was pretty hardcore about telling me to stop and I wasn't going to brush off that kind of advice. Just for clarification, none of the supplements I've tried have done anything for lucidity or general vividness/recall.

Moonbeam, the thought occurred to me to cautiously try a nicotine patch, but I figured I'd save it as a last resort in case I find the galantamine doesn't agree with me. I have literally never heard a single person say they haven't had phenomenal dreams while dreaming with a patch on, so it's powerful magic in them things. But then again we're talking nicotine, so the bottom line is I want to keep it out of me if I can help it.

Here is the result of my second night on GalantaMind. It's good.

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...390#post478390

Originally Posted by Spamtek

Yay, topic's active again. Glad you found that insanity topic on your own, dodobird, else I was going to hunt it down and link it for you. It actually surprised me to find mucuna pruriens on Yuschak's LDS list since I came to the conclusion to try it wholly independently of any dream researcher's opinions. So it's validating to see I wasn't totally off-track, but Alprazolam was pretty hardcore about telling me to stop and I wasn't going to brush off that kind of advice. Just for clarification, none of the supplements I've tried have done anything for lucidity or general vividness/recall.

I think Alprazolam was exagerating. a mucuna pruriens capsule contains about as much L-DOPA as a meal with broad beans, which are a regular part of my diet. So I think mucuna pruriens should be quite safe.

The galantamine continues to work for me. An interesting thing about it is that it seems to allow some awareness of the body, more so than usual when I'm dreaming, but keeps me from waking up at the same time. When I talk, I feel like I'm talking in my sleep, yet it doesn't wake me up like it usually does.

I was surprised when the USPS delivered my Galantamine to me yesterday; I wasn't expecting it until at least Monday. What does this mean? Experiment report!

Experiment 1 [2007-07-28]: Failure
I took 8mg galantamine and 4800mg soy lecithin (anywhere from 200 to 600 mg bioavailable choline) on an empty stomach, after 4-5 hours sleep. I was remarkably awake for having slept so little (bad sign of things to come), but took my drugs, went to the bathroom, returned and meditated for a few minutes, and hit the lights. Attempted to WILD for about an hour on my back (used a simple counting method) but didn't notice anything extraordinary about the attempt. There was a moment near the end where I felt a little floaty (arms felt like they were raised above my head), but it vanished quickly and I've had these moments during normal WILD attempts as well. I gave up and rolled over to fall asleep normally hoping for a DILD... and rolled over, and rolled over, and tossed and turned, flipped around, and tried to fall asleep for the rest of the 2 hours before my alarm clock was scheduled to wake me, with no success. I turned the alarm off and chose to sleep in. I fell into a very strange half-asleep state that was constantly perturbed by family members and pets waking up and stomping around (why I don't like to sleep in), and suffered shallow dreams where my consciousness seemed to be split between different simultaneous scenarios. There was an experience where I was reading the details of my dream (as if I had written them in a journal with one long neverending page) as I was experiencing the dream itself in another portion of my mind. Other dreams followed, all of which seemed shallow, trivial, and were poorly remembered. I got up around 9:00 AM.

Mentally I feel well-rested, but physically the back of my brain feels as if it's been horribly sleep-deprived, with that tight scrunched-up headachey feeling. I took piracetam as I usually do in the mornings, and feel fine (albeit disappointed) right now.

I was incredibly frustrated during the attempt, seemingly having done everything properly and just suffering insomnia for my troubles. I may try again tomorrow or tonight (if I feel cocky - I've at least got piracetam on my side), with a 4mg dose and a shorter sleep time to hopefully combat the insomnia I experienced during my first attempt.

Maybe just forget trying to WILD, and go back to sleep. That's what I've been doing. Also, maybe if you took a tiny dose of melatonin (I found some 300 mg tablets), it would allow you to go back to sleep, yet wear off in time for the galantamine to work.

It sounds like it had some effect, at least.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Maybe just forget trying to WILD, and go back to sleep. That's what I've been doing. Also, maybe if you took a tiny dose of melatonin (I found some 300 mg tablets), it would allow you to go back to sleep, yet wear off in time for the galantamine to work.

It sounds like it had some effect, at least.

Spamtek, I had similar problems on some of my attempts. The supplements are stimulators so if you are already too awake, they can cause insomnia.
Moonbeams suggestions are good, and apart from that you can try:
1) Wake up earlier
2) stay up for shorter time
3) Skip or shorten the meditation
4) Try to WILD differently: don't use counting methods, or other methods that are meant to keep you alert, but instead just lay down in a comfortable position and try to fall asleep, while being aware that you want to remain conscious while you are falling a sleep. Sort of dose off, but with the motivation and knowledge that this is a WILD attempt.
What will hopefully happen is that you begin to dose off, and then some transition effects will take place ( noise, movement etc. ) and when this happens it will wake your mind a little, so that you can complete the WILD.
The idea is just to relax and wait for the HI. When you become sleepy enough and start to actually fall asleep, this is when the HI will happen.

Experiment 2 [2007-07-29]: Failure
Ingested 4mg galantamine and 2400mg lecithin after 3-4 hours of sleep... only got up long enough to empty my bladder and chug the pills, and went immediately back to sleep. When I woke up for this attempt it was definitely a struggle to keep my eyes open which I thought was a good sign, but by the time I'd turned the lights off I felt alert again... oy. I didn't try WILDing this time as per Moonbeam's suggestion (seems most people become spontaneously lucid, whether they're trying to WILD or not) and figured I'd have a shot at falling asleep for real before the galantamine kicked in, but I definitely never fell into a proper sleep pattern. I suffered the same kind of splintered, shallow, diffused awareness I talked about last time... I can only explain it as being awake and asleep at the same time, which sounds exactly like what a lucid dream should be, but it wasn't... it so wasn't. It was just a waste of my time again. My dreams were substandard and poorly recalled, and I woke up at 6:00 AM feeling both psychically and physically drained. Haven't taken piracetam yet, but don't feel any side-effects anyways.

I guess I'll have to call a few days rest before I try again, but I don't even feel enthusiastic about trying anymore... right now I can heartily recommend Galantamine for all-nighter study sessions, but not much else. Disappointed.

So I 1)woke up earlier, 2)stayed up shorter, 3)didn't meditate, 4)didn't WILD, but that hasn't done it yet. Next timeI think I'll try to remain awake for as short as humanly possible; long enough to hit and reset the alarm, swill my oneirogens, and hit the pillow again, hopefully without needing to get out of bed or turn on any lights. If that doesn't work, then I'll really start to be at my wit's end as to what other people are finding useful in this drug. (edit: may also try melatonin, although it hasn't been working as well for me now as it has in the past, at any dose)

(more edit: )I don't think I've experienced HI more than a few times in my life, and most of those times were during meditation sessions, so I don't know if I can rely on that as a goalpost. Then again I don't know if I've ever consciously experienced vibrations or SP either, so hell if I know what to look for.

I'm on a roll!... kind of!

Experiment 3 [2007-08-01]: Failure
4mg galantamine and 2400mg lecithin after 3-4 hours of sleep again. This time sleep was assisted by 3mg melatonin a half hour before bedtime and an additional ~.5mg along with the galantamine. I fell back asleep, but I'm beginning to not like the idea of calling any state of unconsciousness fueled by galantamine "sleep." It honestly feels like regardless of whether I'm semi-unconscious or even dreaming, that I get not a single minute of honest recuperative sleep after ingesting galantamine for the night. I slept an unbelievable (for me) 8 hours after taking the galantamine, racking up 12 hours sleep total, but still feel really like I only got the 3-4 hours before ingesting my oneirogens. I had two dreams that felt very long and at least marginally meaningful, but were also lacking in detail and very disconnected and nonvivid. Nothing even approaching lucidity, although again I still very much feel like a part of my brain is being kept awake while the rest of it sleeps. My perception of time never falls out of reality completely... I guess it feels more like I'm in a deep trance experiencing lots of dream imagery, but it's still a restless state that I could open my eyes out of any moment I chose.

I've been doing reality checks (despite my reservations against them) for the last couple days, too, but they didn't help me much here. I may lay off the galantamine for a while now, since all it does it make me feel horrible (sleep-deprived horrible and "damn, this is hopeless" horrible).

It's getting a bit quiet here these days

So far I can tell you that I continued my experimental nights with galantamine and choline.

In 19 tries I only had one which I would call a failure since lucidity was only very short, then I awoke and drifted back to sleep. However, I had a very interesting non-lucid dream then.

What I would like to ask:

Has anyone further experiences with adding alpha-GPC to the mix? We had some reports here, but I would like more

The above mentioned failure was my first try with alpha-GPC (besides 8 mg galantamine and 500 mg choline and 250 mg B5). Maybe I took too much, it was 900 mg which is rather high for the first time.

The second try was with a long lucid dream (about 45 min). However, there was a lot of dynamic and "instability" and so I lost the dreamscape quite much but was always able to reconstruct a new one.

In all cases I experienced some kind of problem to get out of bed in the morning. I feel rather heavy and lazy. A friend of mine tried alpha-GPC during daytime and she reported that she got very tired a few hours after ingestion. I am a bit confused.. a cholinergic substance which causes fatigue?

I got my alpha-GPC from NSI. Alpha-GPC is very expensive unfortunately and so far I only read promising reports from Yuschak himself. So has anybody given it a try?

Lately my sleep schedule is quite out of order, and I prefer to wait making further attempts with supplements until I get it beck in order. I hope I have something to report soon. I have Alpha-GPC and I will try it on one of my coming attempts and post the a report here.

As long as I'm spamming this thread with failed attempts, here's another! I threw a nicotine patch into the mix for this one.

Experiment 4 [2007-08-14]: Failure
After ~3 hours sleep, I took 4mg galantamine with ~10g lecithin and simultaneously applied 1/4 of a 21mg transdermal nicotine patch, making it theoretically weaker than the 7mg patches which are the lowest dose you can actually buy. Sleep thereafter was consistent with earlier attempts, shallow, restless, and never really feeling like sleep. Dreams were vivid and far-flung but not deep; it was hard to remember them on waking because trying to recall what I dreamed honestly didn't seem to yield any clues. The experience was still qualitatively closer to that of a vivid daydream or visualization exercise rather than a dream, so I had to switch mental gears to recall what I could of the night's activity. No lucidity, no vibration, no SP, etc etc, not even a surprise to me any more. Can't say I noticed the nicotine doing anything, despite Yuschak calling galantamine + nicotine the two heaviest hitters in the oneirogen category.

Hello Spamtek,

Your results must be frustrating you. I might be able to help. There are a couple of differences between what you're doing and the methods described in the book.

First, you need to get at least 4 hours of sleep prior to making an attempt. This is really important, especially when your just getting started using the LDS method. I would recommend 4.5 hours. I saw in one of your earlier posts that you had trouble getting back to sleep and I think that may have been why you shortened your initial sleep time. Taking time to fall back to sleep after taking galantamine is very common in the beginning. It gets much easier with practice. On the night of your attempt, just settle in and relax and realize that it might be a while before sleep comes. Try not to flip flop around and try not to talk to yourself while you lie there. Your patients will pay off.

Secondly, although lecithin is an efficient source of choline, it is not ideal for lucid dreaming. It takes too long to reach peak plasma levels. Peak plasma estimates are between 2-6 hours for lecithin. I also have experimented with lecithin with no luck. Choline Bitartrate (choline) works best. When you hear statements like “choline does not cross the blood brain barrier efficiently” you have to take them with a grain of salt. Choline does enter the brain efficiently when the brain is low on choline (and acetylcholine). This is precisely the case during deep sleep. This fact coupled with the fact that the time to peak plasma level is about an hour makes this form of choline superior to lecithin.

Thirdly, I don’t know if you are still doing this, but one of your early posts said you were taking 2 grams of Piracetam per day. You shouldn’t do that. Although I know some people who have had some success taking piracetam and galantamine together, my own tests show that having piracetam in your system when you take galantamine will lower your odds of success. There are published articles on the EEG effects of galantamine and piracetam that might help explain this. I don’t want to get overly detailed here so I will only say that the two substances have opposite effects on the alpha bandwidth and my own EEG data confirm that this bandwidth is very important to lucid dreams. Also, there is some evidence that Piracetam builds up in your brain over time (this is good for the nootropic effect but not for lucid dreams). If you have been taking regularly, then take a break for few days before your next attempt. Piracetam is very helpful if taken immediately following an LDS attempt however, as it helps to counter the effects of galantamine.

Lastly, make sure you don’t have any other extenuating circumstances. For example, drinking alcohol on the eve prior to an attempt can significantly reduce your odds of success. Also try to get a good amount of sleep on the night prior to an attempt. Also (and I am not implying anything here) pot will put your odds down in the basement.

And just out of curiosity, I am wondering if you smoke cigarettes. Smoking can desensitize some very important receptors when it comes to lucid dreaming.

Hope this helps. If you want to ask any questions you can do so at http://www.advancedld.com/Question_Answer_Board.html

Take Care
Thomas Yuschak
AdvancedLD, Ltd

Hi Thomas,
nice to have you here .

Originally Posted by Thomas

Smoking can desensitize some very important receptors when it comes to lucid dreaming.

I fully agree to that, but let me tell you that a few weeks ago we had a little get-together of some lucid dreamers of another forum and I invited them to test the LDS method.

There were 4 persons besides me, two of them heavy smokers. None of them had ever taken the LDS supplements before. So we arranged a WBTB after 4 hours of sleep.

Both smokers got lucid after taking 8 mg galantamine and 500 mg choline bitartrate and a Matcha tea we had during our one hour WBTB-phase, one of them with quite a fascinating, long lucid dream. They both had a cigarette during WBTB.

Another one (non smoker) had a very impressing LD, the last one was not able to fall back to sleep again.

I myself also succeeded during that night, but let me tell you that I have an incredible success rate using the LDS method anyway (as I posted earlier in this thread).

I don't really like smoking (and call myself a non-smoker) but during the get-together I smoked a few cigarres and cigarettes which seemed to have no impact on my success rate.

However this should not be a "go" for combining smoking and lucid dreaming, I really suggest to quit smoking to everybody who does.

Keep up the good work Thomas,
I am reading your published material with great interest.

Kind regards from Germany (where you also get galantamine and piracetam if you know how )

WARNING

There's research that shows that humans need Acetylcholine levels to be low during sleep in order to consolidate memories. When you take Acetylcholinesterase inhibitors like Galantamine & L-Huperzine-A anywhere near bedtime, it actually significantly impairs your ability to remember memories from the day before. Thus, it may help lucid dreaming, but if you're a student or worker or anyone else who would like to remember stuff they learned the day before, don't take it. See:

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PNAS - Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences
Published online before print February 6, 2004, 10.1073/pnas.0305404101

Low acetylcholine during slow-wave sleep is critical for declarative memory consolidation

Steffen Gais *, and Jan Born

Department of Neuroendocrinology, University of Lübeck, Ratzeburger Allee 160, 23538 Lübeck, Germany

The neurotransmitter acetylcholine is considered essential for proper functioning of the hippocampus-dependent declarative memory system, and it represents a major neuropharmacological target for the treatment of memory deficits, such as those in Alzheimer's disease. During slow-wave sleep (SWS), however, declarative memory consolidation is particularly strong, while acetylcholine levels in the hippocampus drop to a minimum. Observations in rats led to the hypothesis that the low cholinergic tone during SWS is necessary for the replay of new memories in the hippocampus and their long-term storage in neocortical networks. However, this low tone should not affect nondeclarative memory systems. In this study, increasing central nervous cholinergic activation during SWS-rich sleep by posttrial infusion of 0.75 mg of the cholinesterase inhibitor physostigmine completely blocked SWS-related consolidation of declarative memories for word pairs in human subjects. The treatment did not interfere with consolidation of a nondeclarative mirror tracing task. Also, physostigmine did not alter memory consolidation during waking, when the endogenous central nervous cholinergic tone is maximal. These findings are in line with predictions that a low cholinergic tone during SWS is essential for declarative memory consolidation.
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Hi Ludicus,

Thought I would clarify something. Nicotine consumed at WBTB can be helpful (although I wouldn’t recommend it). As I pointed out in the book, a transdermal nicotine patch is a very effective trigger, theoretically so would be a cigarette. In the case of a daytime smoker, a cigarette at WBTB could help raise the ACh levels to a point where the galantamine would work as efficiently as it would by itself for a non-smoker. However, I believe that if nicotine were not consumed at WBTB, galantamine would be less effective (for the daytime smoker). I admit that there is no research I am aware of that directly investigates the affects of daytime smoking on lucid dreaming, but it would be a very worthwhile study.

Take Care
Thomas

Hello REMembering Dreaming,

You are 100% correct. This is one of the reasons why it so important to sleep 4-5 hours prior to consuming a cholinergic substance. The first half of the night is dominated by deep "slow wave" sleep and the second half of the night is dominated by REM sleep. Taking galantamine (or other cholinergic substances) too early will leave you energy depleted the next day due to a deep sleep deficit that can have a negative impact on your memory, mood, and general well being. Remember that the goal is to keep your body in balance. This is the only way to maintain a high success rate and stay healthy and happy.

Thomas

Hi Thomas,

GalantaMind is working really well for me. I’m trying to fine-tune the exact way in which I take it.

I try to sleep about 4.5 hrs, stay up for one hour getting my brain active, and then go back to bed and attempt to WILD.

Would you recommend that the GalantaMind be taken: 1. at the start of the 1hr awake as a pill? 2. at the start of the 1hr awake as powder dissolved in liquid? Or maybe after 30 mins awake? Or maybe just before going back to bed?

Thanks for your insights!