Thread: Galantamine + Choline

Originally Posted by lucidus

Alpha-GPC is considered a "trigger" by Yuschak, so it can even lead to an LD by itself. He thinks that combining it with the other trigger combination Galantamine+Choline works synergistically.

Yes that seems to be the case--I had a plain lucid with the alpha-GPC alone, and a big wild one with both of them.

Originally Posted by lucidus

Alpha-GPC is able to cross the BBB, but the time to reach peak plasma levels would be 3h, which is longer than Choline (1h).

I just got lucky the first time, because I woke up once and took the alpha-GPC, then woke up a couple hours later and took the galantamine. I did that again last night; I didn't get lucid after the GPC this time (actually I may have been, but it was short and I don't remember it well), but I did have vivid dreams; then I got lucid after the galantamine.

Originally Posted by lucidus

Considering Galantamine dosage, I also found out that 8 mg seems to be the ideal dose for me. I tried 12 mg once, but it is really not neccessary.

I wouldn't think so, unless you are really big or something. I was thinking I really could have used th 4mg; when I run out of this I may try that. I could always take two if it doesn't work.

Lucidus, I assume you have had really good experiences with this like I have. How long have you been taking it? How often? Any side effects from long-term use? Do you use piracetam? Do you combine the GPC with the galantamine? Anything else? Have you tried yohimbine? I was interested in that, but I know it has side effects, and after galantamine worked so well I probably won't try that.

Thanks for your help.

Just for the record, has anyone yet tried this combo and not had awesome, immediate results? The track record for this chemical cocktail seems too good to be true.

I put in an order for galantamine and a bulk tub of piracetam (which apparently tastes like dog ass). Half of me wants to wait until August to try, as some sort of symbolic last chance to make my conscious self make itself lucid without crutches... but the other half of me knows I'll be trying it out the first night I get it regardless. I don't have alpha-GPC for a cholinergic but gram-for-gram alpha-GPC costs more than solid gold so I'll just hang with my lecithin for now.

Originally Posted by Spamtek

I don't have alpha-GPC for a cholinergic but gram-for-gram alpha-GPC costs more than solid gold so I'll just hang with my lecithin for now.

but choline bitartrate and choline citrate are cheap

Just for the record, has anyone yet tried this combo and not had awesome, immediate results?

Imediate results seem to be pretty consistent. However, I don't think it's a "sure thing" every time. I've used Galantamine for a year (on and off) and had I become lucid each time I'd be a freakin lucid master by now (just this morning I took 4mg Galantamine and it did nothing but make me toss and turn for about an hour then have weird dreams - no lucids.

BUT, I can say the vividness and recall seems to be consistently present, and that can lead to lucidity.

I don't think anyone here is saying these drugs/supplements are "lucid dreaming pills" - like some market it to be on those sites. There's still a good deal of incorporating the traditional methods (dream journal, MILD, MILD, WBTB, RCs, etc).

Galantamine, Choline, GPC, Piracetam, etc are all helpful in setting the stage for you to become lucid. It's like giving you the ingredients to make spaghetti: it provides the boiling water, pasta and sauce - but it's still up to you to mix it all together.(sorry, it's 9am and I'm a bit hungry already )

Originally Posted by dodobird

but choline bitartrate and choline citrate are cheap

Yes, but lecithin is cheaper still, I already have some of lecithin, and from my own study I think that lecithin supplementation is more effective than choline salts. It seems that neither choline salts or lecithin cross the blood-brain barrier and are only selectively absorbed into the brain when there's a shortage of acetylcholine there. Lecithin takes a little longer to get into the bloodstream, but when it does choline levels there stay far more elevated for far longer than salts. It seems Yuschak's reasoning for advocating salts over other supplements is the relatively faster absorption time (30 minutes versus 1 hour for lecithin) which I guess makes sense if you're working in a relatively small time frame with which to hit for a lucid (2-3 hours)... So I don't know if that half-hour difference in peak plasma levels is really such a big deal or not. Plus lecithin has staying power well beyond the salts, which might produce unwanted side effects with the galantamine in isolation but I've ordered piracetam half as a counterbalance like Yuschak suggests and half as a nootropic, and as a nootropic I want to have elevated choline levels beyond my lucid dreaming attempt. But both of these (salts and lecithin) only work while brain ACh levels are lacking, which is why Alpha-GPC is suggested since it crosses the blood-brain barrier and guarantees increase ACh production. But I am not paying that much money for alpha-GPC... not yet. I try to be a frugal dreamer; I'll work with what I have for now.

I'm getting my info from here, which seems pretty thorough.

Joe: It's not like I was trying to reassure myself that I'd found the dryspeller's instant salvation or anything, I know I still have to work for it. But people who get amazing results tend to be more willing to post it than people who get depressingly lackluster results, and I wanted to make sure all the anecdotes weren't skewing my view of the situation.

Looking forward to the FedEx truck...

Well it's actually good that you are using lecithin because that will give us more experiment data.
Yuschak suggests using the supplements as WILD triggers ( although he says that they also increase the chance of a DILD ). The problem is that you may need to wait a bit longer for the WILD to start because as you said the lecithin starts to work more slowly.
Yuschak suggests going back to bed right after taking the choline and galantamine, and then the WILD should happen 30-40 minutes later.
What you can do if you want to try to achieve WILD using the supplements
is wake up, take the lecithin, wait about 20 minutes, than take the galantamine, and then go to back to bed and wait for the WILD to start.

What Yuschak suggests to do with the alpha-GPC is to take it when doing WBTB like the other supplements.
After a couple of hours the Ach levels starts to drop when the effect of Galantamine+choline starts to wane, at that time the alpha-GPC starts to work and keep the Ach up, so that you can have very long dreams.

My dreams do seem to last an extremely long time.

I got a little complacent, and altho I got lucid last night, I hadn't done my usual concentrating on the task that I wanted to perform, and I forgot my goal and ran around doing a bunch of other things. Still great, but I think I do need to do the same goal-oriented thinking before hand. Unless I just want waste time running around having sex, flying, and eating things.

Good luck, Spamtek; hope it works for you. (I'm sure it will.)

Dear All,

My name is Scot Stride. I began casually investigating supplements in May, 2005 because of some postings I read at The Lucidity Institute (TLI) website. There were a few threads about vitamins, supplements and dreaming. Discussions of Galantamine were banned because at the time LaBerge was experimenting with it at the Kalani Dreamcamp. There were a few mentions of it that got through and those caught my attention. I became more vocal on the forum (and with Keelin) about wanting to discuss Galantamine and they didn’t like it. In September 2005, TLI forum went silent for a major revision; it is still down. Following that a select few of us from the TLI forum set up or own private discussion/study group. In October, 2005 we started buying Galantamine from the Life Enhancement company. It is called Galantamind. Since then we have been carrying out numerous private experiments of a lot of different supplements and brands of Galantamine. Tom Yushack joined our study group last summer after becoming aware of Galantamine’s power. Before the TLI forum went silent Tom was fairly skeptical about supplements in his postings. Since then he has done an about face, and is now one of a few people attempting a scientifically based study of Lucid Dream Supplements (LDS). I wrote the Foreword to his book which is a great fundamental treatise on the LDS method. The research goes on and we are continuing to study various supplements and foods like Chocolate. We figured out the timing aspects of taking the supplements long ago. Taking the LDS 4 hours after going to bed is about optimal. Another aspect we’ve discovered is to pre-mix the LDS powder into a liquid and drink it. Essentially you dump the capsules powder into the liquid, shake well and drink. The dissolved mixture can be prepared before bedtime, or at WBTB. It’s a lot easier to mix it ahead of time, and keep in the refrigerator, if it’s a liquid that might spoil (milk). This process works more efficiently at getting the chemicals into blood stream and the brain. For those of you who have the LDS, I suggest you give this a try. BTW, the issue with building up a tolerance to AChEIs is real. I took Galantamine for 24 days in a row and toward the end experienced a noticeable decline in it’s effectiveness. Follow Yushack’s advice and take a few days off between attempts; 2 ON, 2 OFF, 2 ON, … is a good schedule.

Happy LDs

Scot Stride

Hi Sot, welcome to the forum.

There were a few mentions of it that got through and those caught my attention. I became more vocal on the forum (and with Keelin) about wanting to discuss Galantamine and they didn’t like it.

Yup, I remember that they didn't want it mentioned on there. Anytime I used the word in a post there it would get censored on the page. I was told it was mostly due to the reason of which I posted in post #59. However, as you can tell from products which are boldly named "Lucid dream pill", it's really just about who's going to hit the mass market first, now. Cat's pretty much out of the bag.

Another aspect we’ve discovered is to pre-mix the LDS powder into a liquid and drink it. Essentially you dump the capsules powder into the liquid, shake well and drink.

Never thought of that - does it matter what ratio of water to capsules you mix? I can't imagine that tastes any good, though.

Hi sstride,

thanks for your insight. Regarding the supplement shedule, taking it on 2 days and then waiting 2 days, is this only possible in combination with piracetam or also without?

My current shedule is, taking it on one day and then waiting at least three days until another try.

Thanks for the tipp to pre-mix the powder in some sort of liquid. I thought that this would lessen the effectiveness actually

Would it be possible to join your discussion/forum in some way?

Regards,

DreamScience

sstride: so was the censorship about trying to keep the results of the galantamine experiment "clean" or was TLI trying to formulate (yet another) lucid dreaming pill and stifling you to keep competitors from forming... or both? I haven't had much contact with TLI but was under the impression that it was a fairly open forum for discussing ideas and advancing lucid knowledge impartially, but what you describe sounds pretty craven. That was a great post in any case, though; do you know who precisely was the first to theorize or discover galantamine's powers for lucidity?

The tolerance angle is what concerns me the most. Is this just a question of tolerance to AChEIs themselves, or is prolonged use also given to dampened sensitivity of the ACh system too? And are any of these effects irreversible? I don't mind screwing with my biochemistry as long as I know I can quit and not suffer for my indiscretions decades down the road.

Originally Posted by Spamtek

The tolerance angle is what concerns me the most. Is this just a question of tolerance to AChEIs themselves, or is prolonged use also given to dampened sensitivity of the ACh system too? And are any of these effects irreversible? I don't mind screwing with my biochemistry as long as I know I can quit and not suffer for my indiscretions decades down the road.

Good question.

Originally Posted by sstride

Dear All,
Another aspect we’ve discovered is to pre-mix the LDS powder into a liquid and drink it. Essentially you dump the capsules powder into the liquid, shake well and drink. The dissolved mixture can be prepared before bedtime, or at WBTB. It’s a lot easier to mix it ahead of time, and keep in the refrigerator, if it’s a liquid that might spoil (milk). This process works more efficiently at getting the chemicals into blood stream and the brain. For those of you who have the LDS, I suggest you give this a try.

Scot, Welcome to DreamViews!

Some question about the liquid mix:
What do you recommend for the liquid mix? Should it be something that contains sugar ( to improve the absorption )?
Did you find that this method has any effect on gastro-intestinal side effects?

Dear All,

Here are some answers to your questions...

First, many years ago in 1988 DMAE was subjectively linked to improving the odds of becoming lucid. The exact mechanism was not known, and there were no published follow up studies. Dr. LaBerge did the seminal clinical research on AChEI’s and lucid dreaming. As far as I know there was no paper published based on his research, but a US patent was applied for (20040266659). Somehow the dream pill companies picked up on this patent application and capitalized on it. There are unresolved infringement issues, because the patent was only in the application phase. The new US Patent system is troublesome for small inventors because unscrupulous people can snatch ideas from a patent application before it is granted. In the past, I believe patents were not released if they were not approved. This gave the applicant time to fix the problems and resubmit. With the online system it was easy for these companies to pick up on the dream pill idea and make a product. BTW, Life Enhancement company says nothing connecting Galantamind with dreaming. They sell it to help older people concerned with experiencing memory and/or Alzheimer’s symptoms; using Galantamine as a preventative measure.

IMO, it was Dr. LaBerge who discovered the connection between AChEI’s and lucid dreaming. Unfortunately, there didn’t seem to be enough funding to carry out more in-depth clinical studies, with Dream Camp being a quasi-clinical controlled setting to gather data. So I give LaBerge full credit for the discovery based solely upon what was in his 2004 patent application. Somehow he made the connection between ACh levels, REM sleep and lucidity and then looked for supplements that helped raise ACh levels. The Choline’s, B5 and AChEI’s fit the bill with Galantamine being the one that works best. Nice piece of neurochemical sleuth work, but the pills can’t do it all! Sadly, I think he missed the wave on promoting his brand of a dream pill, if that was ever the intent. As for the dream pill companies, they just want to make a buck and sell all they can. Their websites don’t give any practical advice on taking the Galantamine to optimize it’s effects. In fact, for a while they said to take it at bedtime which is not the right time at all. They were very quick to peddle the pills with little or no studies done to give good advice to the customers. We’ve given them lots of practical advice and it seems to fall on blind eyes.

Second, WBTB (napping) by itself is clinically shown to be the best way to have an LD. It requires no pills, just a commitment to get up after 4 hours of sleep and stay mentally active for an hour or more before going back to sleep. WBTB combined with MILD and a Dream mask is the best traditional method developed. It works for most people who are sincere about their lucid dreaming efforts. But it doesn’t work for everyone. The supplements are not a “quick fix” and like MILD have their own unique requirements. Taking LDS ALONG WITH doing WBTB and MILD improves the odds even more of becoming lucid. Pills or no pills, you must be in the right state of awareness. Now, there are people in our small group who get up, take the LDS, then go back to sleep (very short WBTB, no mental prep work) and then have multiple LDs. That is quite uncommon, but it does happen. Also, the “Placebo Effect” has been given too much attention, being the catch phrase used by those who like to knock supplements. Double blind studies are always good to carry out, and LaBerge does single blind studies at Dream Camp. It is hard to prove AChEI’s effect on lucidity is all Placebo and produces no real neurochemical change in the brain…it does!

Third, the LDS powders are all bitter tasting, but nothing like Calea-Z. If you mix the LDS with a mildly sweet drink (Powerade, OJ or cranberry juice) it covers the bitterness very well. It can cause some stomach discomfort, so eating some food with it helps. I eat a few small cookies or something low in calories, like an energy bar or chocolate pudding cup. Some sugar with the LDS is okay.



Fourth, the tolerance buildup argument with Galantamine has one detractor, and that’s all those people with Alzheimer’s symptoms who take it (in high dosages). They don’t seem to build up a lasting tolerance and benefit from it daily. If they stop taking it their symptoms come back. Maybe it’s not wise to compare people with healthy cognitive function to those that just want a little more quality of life. For them dreaming is a low priority, especially if you’re struggling just to remember your friends names. Normal brains that don’t need the extra ACh seem to build up a tolerance to it in the REM dreaming department. During my 24 day trial I saw no impact on my waking state or normal cognitive function. I suggest regularly taking days off from the LDS and using those days for MILD, WBTB, something more traditional, or just normal sleep.

Lastly, the Racetams do seem to help counteract the AChEIs, but I don’t use them as a “morning after” pill, since I usually take them every day anyway. I do know that they don’t work for trying to help with having a lucid dream. Although I did have an LD once with the NovaDreamer and Piracetam combined, but it was probably the mask that did all the work.

Happy LDs.

Scot Stride

sstride, thanks for the thorough response.
Report of my 5th attempt: partial success.
4mg galantamine, 500mg choline bitartrate, and a very short WBTB
I was unsuccessful to WILD, and had trouble falling asleep. This could be attributed to some disruptions by mosquitoes and my cats.
I did end up having a DILD, which was unfortunately short, and my dream recall was better than average.
I took peracetam as usual in the morning. I don't think there are any side effects this time.

This does not work, at least for me. I took 8mg of Galantamine and 400mg of Choline and I even added 100 mg of B5 and it had no effect.

Originally Posted by zeroroom

This does not work, at least for me. I took 8mg of Galantamine and 400mg of Choline and I even added 100 mg of B5 and it had no effect.

Did you take it when doing WBTB?
Did you try to WILD or DILD?

I tried using MILD and I also listened to a subliminal CD

Try it after 4 hours of sleep, and try to do WILD. MILD/DILD is possible but apparently it works only some of the times.

There must be some explanation as to why it does not work every time. I took a few days off and last night returned with the following cocktail:

250 choline before bed (10-10:30pm) <-- first time trying extra choline
100mg B6, 4mg GalantaMind (4:30am) <-- GalantaMind contains choline and B5 as well

Results: nothing. I'd say vivid dreams, but I get those even without supplements.

So far I've concluded that this mixture does increase chances by supplying the body with chemicals needed during REM sleep - but withouth some training in tecnhique about lucid dreaming AND a bit of enthusiasm or determination, it is not solely that significant.

I think my next step is to experiment a bit more with what factors may be causing this lucid aid to fail. Stress, meditation, enthusiasm, meals before bedtime, etc.

Originally Posted by Tornado Joe

There must be some explanation as to why it does not work every time. I took a few days off and last night returned with the following cocktail:

250 choline before bed (10-10:30pm) <-- first time trying extra choline
100mg B6, 4mg GalantaMind (4:30am) <-- GalantaMind contains choline and B5 as well

Results: nothing. I'd say vivid dreams, but I get those even without supplements.

Why dont you take the choline during WBTB?
Try 500 mg of choline then and double the dose of galantamine (8 mg).
And dont use B6. AKAIK B6 is needed to convert L-tryptophane to 5-HTP which can then be converted to serotonine which is not what you want for a REM phase.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Lucidus, I assume you have had really good experiences with this like I have. How long have you been taking it? How often? Any side effects from long-term use? Do you use piracetam? Do you combine the GPC with the galantamine? Anything else? Have you tried yohimbine? I was interested in that, but I know it has side effects, and after galantamine worked so well I probably won't try that.

So far I made 14 attempts with substances used in a way as Yuschak suggests.

I was lucid in all of them, but one attempt I would categorize as "unsuccessful" because I awoke immediately after getting lucid and after that only had a mix of "being awake" or being "semi-lucid".

However, all other attempts where quite pleasing, a lot of them WILDs.

WILD with these supplements is like:
taking them in an hour of WBTB, lying down, waiting for a WILD to happen. Almost no real effort is needed, I just try not to fall really asleep (eventually however this must happen) and experience vibrations, noises, forces (which try to pull me out of bed) or whatever.

I have no side-effects which annoy me. Maybe some form of hyperactivity like when drinking too much coffee. But it seems that is a bit easier when I take piracetam after getting up which I started a while ago. I dont use piracetam for other purposes.

Sometimes I combined GPC with Galantamine but it seems that GPC is not the right supplement for me, at least not at night. It seems to be easier to take it at daytime since e.g. DMAE gives me some other problems during daytime. But after a WBTB I dont like GPC, since it seems to keep me in bed for a very long time and does not really improve my LDs.

Yohimbine I tried a few times. So far my best success however was when I used it without Galantamine (I took nicotine instead). But I will experiment with Yohimbine again for sure. My problem here is that it is very very difficult to dose. I only have it as bark and taking 30-50 mg of the bark is just fine. A bit more and I can probably no longer sleep at all. A year ago I made a tea out of two spoons and was wide awake all night!

Originally Posted by lucidus

WILD with these supplements is like:
taking them in an hour of WBTB, lying down, waiting for a WILD to happen.

Are you waiting an hour when doing WBTB before going to sleep?

Ok, I just got some GalantaMind and am about to try it. I'm pretty excited. I plan to sleep just over four hours, wake, mix & drink 8mg of GM with some liquid, stay awake for an hour, then attempt WILD.

One question: what about tea? I usually have a few gulps of tea after my 4 hrs sleep. Should I also do it in this case? What do you guys do? Thanks!