Thread: B6 effectiveness

It works more effectively if you only take it once in a while. Make sure you are getting all of your B vitamins on a regular basis, then occasionally take some extra B6 before you go to bed, on a night that you know you will get a good night's sleep.

Originally Posted by azureone

Ive been taking B6 for weeks and I've only had one vivid dream that I can remember, and that was the first time I took it. Does B6 lose effectiveness the mroe you guys take it and you kinda have to rest for awhile? Or does it depend on how much sleep you get which determines whether it will be effective or not? I really need to know because this is really discouraging me....

A scientific study of B6 and dreams showed that B6 had no effect on dreams at dosage levels of 100mg. At 250mg there was a significant effect on vividness, bizarreness, emotionality, and color (though nothing was said about lucidity). On the other hand, the tolerable upper intake level for B6 is 100mg per day. Taken together, these two facts mean that B6 is a poor choice for a lucidity inducing substance.

If you are interested in substances that are safer and more effective, I would recommend "Advanced Lucid Dreaming" by Thomas Yuschak. He also has some freely available information on his website Advanced LD.

I made a post, which is actually at the top of this page, about B6 to help people use it more effectively.

Originally Posted by ExoByte

I made a post, which is actually at the top of this page, about B6 to help people use it more effectively.

According to your theory, B6 works because it leads to increased production of serotonin. Well, serotonin actually suppresses REM sleep, so the only mechanism by which it could induce lucid dreams is via REM rebound. But if it is REM rebound you want, 5-HTP or even melatonin would be vastly more effective, not to mention safer.

Would eatting a bananna and peanuts be an effective source of B6 if taken befiore bed?

and.....clementines

Originally Posted by Thor

According to your theory, B6 works because it leads to increased production of serotonin. Well, serotonin actually suppresses REM sleep, so the only mechanism by which it could induce lucid dreams is via REM rebound. But if it is REM rebound you want, 5-HTP or even melatonin would be vastly more effective, not to mention safer.

5-HTP is serotonin. What do you mean serotonin suppresses REM sleep..? Where are you getting this from..?
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Originally Posted by Thor

A scientific study of B6 and dreams showed that B6 had no effect on dreams at dosage levels of 100mg. At 250mg there was a significant effect on vividness, bizarreness, emotionality, and color (though nothing was said about lucidity). On the other hand, the tolerable upper intake level for B6 is 100mg per day. Taken together, these two facts mean that B6 is a poor choice for a lucidity inducing substance.

If you are interested in substances that are safer and more effective, I would recommend "Advanced Lucid Dreaming" by Thomas Yuschak. He also has some freely available information on his website Advanced LD.

I searched 4 nationally peer-reviewed databases and failed to find a study similar to what you are talking about. Where is it? Is it recognized by the APA?
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Originally Posted by O'nus

5-HTP is serotonin. What do you mean serotonin suppresses REM sleep..? Where are you getting this from..?
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Actually, 5-HTP is a precursor to serotonin. And I got all of this from Thomas Yuschak who researched it and wrote a book about it.

Originally Posted by Thor

Actually, 5-HTP is a precursor to serotonin. And I got all of this from Thomas Yuschak who researched it and wrote a book about it.

Yes, it is a precursor, unfortunately it is decarboxylated to become serotonin by the aromatic-L amino acid via pyridoxine (b6).

I searched 1050 databases with publications from the year 1812 to 2007 - Thomas Yuschak is in the Journal of Immunology, Experimental Medcine, and has 1 article in Lipid Research and Nucleic Acid Research.

I still did not find any article even with the keywords "dream", "b6", "pyridoxine", "vitamin b6".

This makes me curious to the validity of the research you propose considering it obviously did not pass peer-review into these databases. Of course, it could be outside of these databases. However, I have found most of his other articles and am including a gross amount.

Is there an online copy? I am curious to read the content because I have never heard someone say that it suppresses REM sleep before.
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Originally Posted by O'nus

I searched 4 nationally peer-reviewed databases and failed to find a study similar to what you are talking about. Where is it? Is it recognized by the APA?
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The paper is "Effects of pyridoxine on dreaming: a preliminary study." by Ebben, Matthew : Lequerica, Anthony : Spielman, Arthur. The full paper used to be available on the web, but I can't find it any longer. However, the abstract is available.

Originally Posted by Thor

The paper is "Effects of pyridoxine on dreaming: a preliminary study." by Ebben, Matthew : Lequerica, Anthony : Spielman, Arthur. The full paper used to be available on the web, but I can't find it any longer. However, the abstract is available.

So, Thomas Yuschak referenced this paper..? He's not involved with this specific study..?

Very interesting though. I will try to get this article for myself. The fact is I searched these databases and I found no publications involving vitamin b6 and dreaming. Thus, I think you may have shown me a promising opportunity for research!

For those still curious, I have done several studies with b6 (100mg) myself and have not felt it had any significant effect. However, this did not use the scientific method so there is possible bias (although, I am not inclined to either side). Same with melatonin - although it did help me sleep.

Thanks for sharing Thor!
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Originally Posted by O'nus

I searched 1050 databases with publications from the year 1812 to 2007 - Thomas Yuschak is in the Journal of Immunology, Experimental Medcine, and has 1 article in Lipid Research and Nucleic Acid Research.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying he did the original research on serotonin and dreaming. Probably he didn't. But he did put together a lot of interesting facts about brain chemistry and supplements that are relevant to lucid dreaming and wrote a book about it.

Serotonin is a prime ingredient in dreaming. With high serotonin levels, people have reported extremely vivid dreams. Seratonin also keeps people's moods elevated, which is also a powerful help in dreams. I've never heard of Serotonin suppressing REM sleep, and it seems quite the contrary to the purpose of the chemical

Originally Posted by O'nus

So, Thomas Yuschak referenced this paper..? He's not involved with this specific study..?

No, actually I don't think he mentioned that one. I found it myself while trying to "research" whether there was any point in trying B6, and I concluded that it wasn't. Yuschak seems to indirectly confirm this, since he seems to place very low emphasis on vitamins beyond the recommended daily allowance.

Originally Posted by ExoByte

Serotonin is a prime ingredient in dreaming. With high serotonin levels, people have reported extremely vivid dreams. Seratonin also keeps people's moods elevated, which is also a powerful help in dreams. I've never heard of Serotonin suppressing REM sleep, and it seems quite the contrary to the purpose of the chemical

Yes, but there is no empirical or scientific evidence to suppor the claim that b6 heightens dream vividity or anything else, for that matter.

If you can find an academic, peer-review article, supporting this. Please do share! (Because I aim to do research on this very thing!)
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Originally Posted by ExoByte

Serotonin is a prime ingredient in dreaming. With high serotonin levels, people have reported extremely vivid dreams.

I completely agree that taking a serotonin-boosting precursor will lead to more vivid dreams. But if it is serotonin you want, then 5-HTP is a lot more effective, easier and safer than a super high dose of B6 and a tryptophan rich meal.

Originally Posted by Thor

I completely agree that taking a serotonin-boosting precursor will lead to more vivid dreams. But if it is serotonin you want, then 5-HTP is a lot more effective, easier and safer than a super high dose of B6 and a tryptophan rich meal.

This is a good point considering b6 is truly the third wheel in the decarboxylation process. Whereas, 5-HTP is the first.
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No, 5-HTP does not work as well as the B6/Tryptophan Combo. The reason is taking something like 5-HTP directly won't help as much because the brain does not like taking that sort of substance directly. It has to be made from within the body, otherwise the Brain Barrier will prevent it from being used, its why its effectiveness is greatly reduced and almost nill when used in psychiatric studies for example to help a patients mood.

B6 and Tryptophan will work in the body and the brain will allow it much easier than it will a direct 5-HTP supplement.

Originally Posted by O'nus

5-HTP is serotonin. What do you mean serotonin suppresses REM sleep..? Where are you getting this from..?
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Just to follow up a bit on this. I did a search on Google, and I found this article: "Biogenic Amines and the States of Sleep", Michel Jouvet, Science 163 (862) pages : 32-41 (1969). A couple of relevant quotes from the article (my emphasis):

"In birds, whose blood brain barrier is permeable, intravenous injection of serotonin or noradrenalin leads to slow-wave sleep, as indicated by hehavior and by electroencephalographic recording (25)."

"The increase of cerebral serotonin (through intravenous or intraperitoneal injection of its precursor 5-hydroxytryptophan (5 HTP)) leads first to a state which resembles slow-wave sleep (28). However, this drug leads to a suppression of paradoxical sleep for 5 to 6 hours; the suppression is followed by a secondary rebound (29)"

Note that "paradoxical sleep" is better known today as REM sleep.

Originally Posted by ExoByte

No, 5-HTP does not work as well as the B6/Tryptophan Combo. The reason is taking something like 5-HTP directly won't help as much because the brain does not like taking that sort of substance directly. It has to be made from within the body, otherwise the Brain Barrier will prevent it from being used, its why its effectiveness is greatly reduced and almost nill when used in psychiatric studies for example to help a patients mood.

B6 and Tryptophan will work in the body and the brain will allow it much easier than it will a direct 5-HTP supplement.

I'm sorry, but this is absolute hogwash. Serotonin does not easily cross the blood-brain barrier, but 5-HTP does.

No you idiot. When metabolized inside the body yes, but with direct intake, 5-HTP being taken in will not pass the brain barrier easily, and studies have shown this. However, taking B6 and Tryptophan will allow it to metabolize inside the body which marks it as "Okay" by the brain allowing it easy access. The sole reason 5-HTP supplements are not working in depression treatment is the fact that the brain won't take it in. 5-HTP is being tested for depression treatment because of its relation to Seratonin, but the results are nill and the studies have shown why.

That is why a B6/Tryptophan combo, which will cause desired results.

And Serotonin doesn't need to cross the brain barrier because it becomes Serotonin after the 5-HTP does, but once again the 5-HTP will have a hard time when intaken directly. You're missing some very key words here obviously. Try actually reading rather than skimming.

Originally Posted by ExoByte

No you idiot. When metabolized inside the body yes, but with direct intake, 5-HTP being taken in will not pass the brain barrier easily, and studies have shown this. However, taking B6 and Tryptophan will allow it to metabolize inside the body which marks it as "Okay" by the brain allowing it easy access. The sole reason 5-HTP supplements are not working in depression treatment is the fact that the brain won't take it in. 5-HTP is being tested for depression treatment because of its relation to Seratonin, but the results are nill and the studies have shown why.

That is why a B6/Tryptophan combo, which will cause desired results.

And Serotonin doesn't need to cross the brain barrier because it becomes Serotonin after the 5-HTP does, but once again the 5-HTP will have a hard time when intaken directly. You're missing some very key words here obviously. Try actually reading rather than skimming.

Here is the abstract of a scientific paper, "5-Hydroxytryptophan: a clinically-effective serotonin precursor" by Birdsall TC [email protected] Altern Med Rev 1998 Aug; 3(4):271-80. (Emphasis is mine.):

5-Hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) is the intermediate metabolite of the essential amino acid L-tryptophan (LT) in the biosynthesis of serotonin. Intestinal absorption of 5-HTP does not require the presence of a transport molecule, and is not affected by the presence of other amino acids; therefore it may be taken with meals without reducing its effectiveness. Unlike LT, 5-HTP cannot be shunted into niacin or protein production. Therapeutic use of 5-HTP bypasses the conversion of LT into 5-HTP by the enzyme tryptophan hydroxylase, which is the rate-limiting step in the synthesis of serotonin. 5-HTP is well absorbed from an oral dose, with about 70 percent ending up in the bloodstream. It easily crosses the blood-brain barrier and effectively increases central nervous system (CNS) synthesis of serotonin. In the CNS, serotonin levels have been implicated in the regulation of sleep, depression, anxiety, aggression, appetite, temperature, sexual behaviour, and pain sensation. Therapeutic administration of 5-HTP has been shown to be effective in treating a wide variety of conditions, including depression, fibromyalgia, binge eating associated with obesity, chronic headaches, and insomnia.

This tells me pretty much the exact opposite of what you're saying.

Originally Posted by Thor

Just to follow up a bit on this. I did a search on Google, and I found this article: "Biogenic Amines and the States of Sleep", Michel Jouvet, Science 163 (862) pages : 32-41 (1969). A couple of relevant quotes from the article (my emphasis):

"In birds, whose blood brain barrier is permeable, intravenous injection of serotonin or noradrenalin leads to slow-wave sleep, as indicated by hehavior and by electroencephalographic recording (25)."

"The increase of cerebral serotonin (through intravenous or intraperitoneal injection of its precursor 5-hydroxytryptophan (5 HTP)) leads first to a state which resembles slow-wave sleep (28). However, this drug leads to a suppression of paradoxical sleep for 5 to 6 hours; the suppression is followed by a secondary rebound (29)"

Note that "paradoxical sleep" is better known today as REM sleep.

Before delving into the activity of 5-HTP, I thought I would make this post.

Do you hold this to be true; that serotonin reduces REM episodes?

(Edit: Reviewing comments..)
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