EXTREME Lucid Experiments

Creating a new color is impossible. Our eyes can only percieve such a set color range, only a few million colors. We can't create colors in our dream world and institute them into reality. You might be able to say, when I enter the next room I'll see a new color but when you wake up it'll probably be a color you've seen before. Or when you try to remember what it looked like, come up with nothing. Then there's the all important question: How would you describe it? I think you can equate this to the asking DCs to tell you the funniest joke ever. You'll hear it and think it's hilarious but when you wake up it's just nonsense. However, yes you can persuade yourself while dreaming that you saw a new color but in reality you didn't.

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Originally Posted by Through the Looking Glass

Creating a new color is impossible. Our eyes can only percieve such a set color range, only a few million colors. We can't create colors in our dream world and institute them into reality. You might be able to say, when I enter the next room I'll see a new color but when you wake up it'll probably be a color you've seen before. Or when you try to remember what it looked like, come up with nothing. Then there's the all important question: How would you describe it? I think you can equate this to the asking DCs to tell you the funniest joke ever. You'll hear it and think it's hilarious but when you wake up it's just nonsense. However, yes you can persuade yourself while dreaming that you saw a new color but in reality you didn't.

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you sound a little too sure of yourself here
but you are probably right :)

I love how this has turned into a philosophical discussion.

I know we have a set color spectrum, but there have always been constants:


-The type of light we see it in

-The limitations of the human eye

-The limitations of our knowledge past what we ourselves see

-The limitations of our mind to set apart these colors


For example, how do you know there is a fourth dimension if we can't see it? What if there is a type of light that nobody can see or prove with our clumsy scientific devices?

Imagine being able to see everything.

Seeing everything in the universe on from the tiniest detail to the largest perspective. Seeing everyone's thoughts, emotions, actions. Seeing the past, the future, what never was, what could have been, how things happened, seeing ourselves from an unbiased view, seeing everything for the first time and as if we'd seen it before. Seeing infinity, all the possibilities... The possibilities in our universe would seem infinitely small to what you can do with infinity. We could see time, we could see how it has always been, but never was...

Now in that deep thinking state, tell me that you can't create a new color.

And tell me, how far-reaching our our scientific capabilities if we are using the very fabric we are trying to study? It's like somebody being given clay to build something to find out more about clay. And maybe, someone out there is appreciating the level of thought we are gradually achieving.

Just as this smiley would look like an infinitely ridiculous compared to the Universe. (:boogie:)

Maybe in the future, we will have explored so many possibilities that smaller variation are gradually more appealing, until we are so minutely perfectionist that we see art in everything.

Besides, unless we give back to the Universe in thinking, contemplation and philosophy as well as changing the enviroment for the betterment of it's inhabitants, we are nothing but a rapidly multiplying virus that consumes and moves on.

That is why art is so important.

And that is why the mind is our greatest tool, and is unbounded in all the areas that would normally be bound in our Universe.


I got a little carried away, but on purpose. Now in this state of mind, and not from a narrow human perspective, post your replies.

I've gone so far as to take away all of my surroundings and build them anew, but the strangest thing I've had happens so far was finding an object in one of my lucid dreams I could in no way control. I would change scense and try to take things appart and it remained out of my reach. This isn't new but it hasn't happened in years. When I first started Lucid Dreaming I would be unable to move many things then fewer and fewer were immobile but this object has been there from the start. If I bodily try to touch it in my dream I can here it saying no several times before I wake.

Tonight I'm going to have a go at the talisman. It's not very often that I find something I can't manipulate. I may also like to try to remove everything including myself from my dreamscape and see how long I can remain lucid without any point of refference.

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Originally Posted by Vance

Dream Libraries

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I did this, sort-of I knew what you were thinking about. So I used a little stimulation for it. I watched Stephen Kings Dreamcatcher. You know the scene where the guy is running around in his own mind hiding thoughts and memories from the parasite.

I started just by creating a large hall with dozens of rooms off to each side, and simple decided they each room would contain a memory or a dream, or the memory of a dream. I was able to see nightmares I had as a kid, and see some of my early birthday parties. I suppose that the rooms are each and everyone empty until I decide what I want to find and then it's there, but it helped having lots of rooms, that way my mind didn't have to say "change the setting in this room" it just had to say "oh, that's whats in this room."

I think something along this line may be the root of hypnotic regression to recover memories, because I was able to see an accident I had when I was just 2 years old.

I will have to differ in opinion about the "you can't create another colour" idea.

First, just to get this clear, the analogy "like asking a blind man to imagine seeing" is completely wrong for this case. A wider range of colours is an extension of a sense we already have, sight. It's not so much creating a new sense, but merely updating an old one. :roll: Maybe having "a blind man imagine hearing out-of-depth sounds, or having more fidelity in touch" would be more accurate, because those would both be senses he was already familiar with; merely increased in perception.

Second, describing a new colour would be very VERY hard. That is definitely true, since it would (at my best guess) be indicative of an existing colour but would "feel different". Take infrared. I'm guessing (no personal experience here, just an educated guess) that if able to see infrared as a new colour people would imagine it as having a red-ish hue, while still not being red. It would be more like a perceived difference, though.


Well, there are my thoughts. I'd really love to hear a recount of a full 360-view (either warped or indicated), since that would be really cool :D

Light, all light, IS the color spectrum. There would have to be new light for new colors to exist, but I think it's like a law of physics that red blue and yellow are the only colors.

no wait, I'm wrong, or theres more at least

ok ok, it IS like a new sense actually. You know how some animals are color blind? Well they don't know they are right? But we know there is more color out there, because we have the receptors to see it. It's like we have 5 or 6 senses, a set number at least, but maybe there is a whole infinite world of things we just can't sense because we don't have the receptors to pick it up? I think there could totally be more colors, but I still don't know if we could conceptualize them in a dream.

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Originally Posted by jamous

Red, blue, and yellow are the only colors there are. And every color that is not solid red, blue, or yellow, is a combination. The color spectrum encompasses every possible color between red, blue, and yellow, and black and white, which are "shades."

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Actually, you're thinking of color pigments, like paint. What you really mean is RGB, red green and blue are the 3 primary colors that can combine to create other colors, in the physical world. There is also the secondary, the cyan, magenta, and....yellow? I forget the third.

Anyways.....I imagine that the brain could fool you into thinking you saw a new color, by giving you just the sensation. The memory of the color would always rest just on the tip of your mind, as you could never envision it whole, as that is impossible. You can have the "sensation" of seeing a new color, but you can't actually physically perceive it. We can only perceive visible light within a certain frequency range of the electromagnetic spectrum, much like we can only hear sounds within the frequency range of 20 Hz to 20 000 Hz.
But it really depends on our receptors and our brain, as our whole reality rests within the computations of this organ. With our exponentially expanding technology, I can only imagine that soon we will be able to delve into the territory of perceiving that which was before unseen.

btw....why is everything in Russian on this forum?
(edit: lol nvm, I didn't see the language bar at the bottom)

Only three colours? You realize that other animals see our colour spectrum in addition to some other ones? I mean, really, do you think that we have the highest vision spectrum? Nope.

Now how do those animals deal with it? Well, they just do, because their brain works with it differently. Which brings me back to my point that it would be an extension of your existing sight. The animals which naturally have the ability to see wider spectrums don't suddenly have another sense, it's an extension.

You know also that people can see a bit of low-range-infrared? Just thought I'd mention.:)

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Originally Posted by Metroid48

Only three colours? You realize that other animals see our colour spectrum in addition to some other ones? I mean, really, do you think that we have the highest vision spectrum? Nope.

Now how do those animals deal with it? Well, they just do, because their brain works with it differently. Which brings me back to my point that it would be an extension of your existing sight. The animals which naturally have the ability to see wider spectrums don't suddenly have another sense, it's an extension.

You know also that people can see a bit of low-range-infrared? Just thought I'd mention.:)

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how could anybody know that some animals see more colors than we do?

That's just another way of saying, how can anyone "know" anything??? No one is 100% certain of anything, but we can get close enough. Maybe they know because they can see neural activity in the visual cortex of animals in response to wavelengths outside our visible spectrum.

Humans are limited creatures, what we don't understand or think possible a lot of us just seem to write off as impossible. Yet just look at all the technological and developmental advancements we have made, the understanding we have gained over centuries of research and development culminating in a single event, the gaining of knowledge previously unknown.

You are limiting color to only the current visible light spectrum. But that is just because our eyes only have receptors to pick up those certain frequencies. But there are animals the pit viper for instance which can "see" using infrared. There is plenty of evidence to support this claim just google it, I don't care to do the research for you. That being said I do NOT believe that in our physical state we could see anything outside of the light spectrum but when you are dreaming you are not limited to the physical state. The mind no longer interprets signals from your eyes it uses the "minds eye" to create your surroundings. Therefore the limit of not having receptors is taken out of the equation. If you would open your mind a little and stop being so narrow minded you would understand that it is only logical to perceive what has never been perceived before else we would never be able to learn anything new.

Explaining this new color though would pose an extremely difficult task in that you could not compare the new color to any other physical color because then the skeptics just write it off as "oh, he is just seeing a slightly different shade nothing more." You would need to be able to give them the experience firsthand or they would just need to believe that it is possible even though the image they get from you trying to explain it would not be the same as the actual color.

Also, if perceiving a new "color" is too much for you to comprehend then consider it as seeing a new spectrum or light. The feeling and visual effects of that new spectrum would be the color. The skeptics here are just too narrow minded to consider perceiving what is commonly believed as impossible as possible. Break free of the restraints that hold you back, the common beliefs and create your own. Give it an honest try in your next LD, if you can not achieve this then maybe you just arent skilled enough, or maybe it is impossible for you. But until i have exhausted every resource I have trying to prove that it is possible I refuse to accept that it is impossible. As is I can see in Infrared in my LD. But to try and explain it to you would be like trying to explain what fire is to a person who has never experienced fire. Unless I can show you through my mind what I saw you will never truly understand the experience.

360 Degree Vision: Only a few times; it's kind of hard so I never really worked at it. Basically, it's seeing in all directions at the same time, even above and below.

Dream Libraries: Yep, although if you believe in astral projection it's more like the library that many AP books talk about--I can go back and relive things in my actual life (not that I've wanted to; once is enough thanks) or previous dreams or all kinds of stuff like that.

Raising Dream Characters: Don't think I've done this one...I'm not interested in real life kids (a niece is more than enough right now!) so I don't really care to do it in dreams either. Kids are work--why waste a good LD on them? When I have real kids they'll eat up all my time anyways, sleep included. :D

Creating new colors: Yep, tons! I see them all the time, but I don't exactly create them myself.

Controlling more than one body in a dream: I just did this a couple of weeks ago. I controlled two other people besides myself like puppets. It's in my dream journal if you wanna read about it.

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Originally Posted by M0rp8ix

You are limiting color to only the current visible light spectrum. But that is just because our eyes only have receptors to pick up those certain frequencies. But there are animals the pit viper for instance which can "see" using infrared. There is plenty of evidence to support this claim just google it, I don't care to do the research for you. That being said I do NOT believe that in our physical state we could see anything outside of the light spectrum but when you are dreaming you are not limited to the physical state. The mind no longer interprets signals from your eyes it uses the "minds eye" to create your surroundings. Therefore the limit of not having receptors is taken out of the equation. If you would open your mind a little and stop being so narrow minded you would understand that it is only logical to perceive what has never been perceived before else we would never be able to learn anything new.

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Yeah, pretty much what I'm saying basically. We don't have receptors to perceive energy outside our visible spectrum, but that's not to say that somehow we might be able to be equipped with receptors that can perceive energy outside the visible spectrum. It's already been shown that some animals and insects perceive outside our visible spectrum.

And as for seeing outside the visible spectrum in a dream, well, like I said before, the closest you can get to that is just the fleeting sensation that you saw a new color. How would it be possible otherwise? Unless somehow you unconciously pick up on these wavelengths outside the visual spectrum, and they are shown to you in your dreams, I just don't see how your brain could simulate the perception of energy outside the visible spectrum.

Think about it this way. Some one lives there whole lives with ear plugs on but they don't realize it. They hear, but what they hear is nothing compared to what we hear. What they hear is not only lower in loudness, but has much of the high frequency content removed. Now to them this what sound is. How could they imagine anything different? One day you remove their ear plugs and they say.....holy crap, I had no idea sound could be this bright. Do you think they could have a dream before their ear plugs were removed where they heard such sounds, and remember it the next morning? Course not.

Oh yea, and we don't learn new things by perceiving new ranges of stimuli. What you're talking about is evolution/mutation. Maybe one day a random mutation will occur, where the person can perceive a wider range of stimuli, and they this person will procreate and pass on his/her genes, and evolution will favor this and soon everyone will be seeing sound or w/e lol.

im tellling you, creating a new color is impossible. i dont know how naiya did it "thousands of times" i wanna know what colors she invented

Spitfire, colors don't exist in the first place. We only see color because our brains translate what our physical senses tell us. Colors are a perception. They are subjective. Same with sound---what exists is the frequency/vibration. The sound itself does not exist until it is actually perceived and translated into a sound by the mind.

When you aren't limited by your physical senses--your eyes--your mind is capable of "seeing" more than is possible in your physical body, hence things like seeing in all directions at once.

And again, hummingbirds see more colors than we do, for example. You wouldn't be surprised if a hound could smell more scents. Human beings are so arrogant, thinking we have the best equipment! But anyway, that in itself proves that there are more colors than the ones our human eyes can perceive. :P

So basically, that means your argument can only work if you are arguing that it is impossible to dream something you have never seen or experienced previously in some form or another, right? But the wonderful thing about the imagination is just that--it can actually create completely new ideas. And if you don't think that's possible, then I sort of feel sorry for you. ;)

Also, just because you can't do it, doesn't mean it's impossible. Although most dreams (especially for a non-LDer) are pretty much just our mind imitating the normal things it is used to. In lucid dreams and OBEs, things can become much more than simply a mixture of our thoughts and previous experiences.

Nothing is impossible within your own mind and imagination. :boogie:

Naiya, I don't think you actually imagined or dreamt new colors. You probably felt like you did, but didn't actually. Until we have the capability to perceive energy outside the visual spectrum, there is no way to actually imagine it like you would imagine the color red or blue.

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Originally Posted by schematics

Naiya, I don't think you actually imagined or dreamt new colors. You probably felt like you did, but didn't actually. Until we have the capability to perceive energy outside the visual spectrum, there is no way to actually imagine it like you would imagine the color red or blue.

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You're still thinking that dreams are perceived by our physical eyes. They aren't. They're perceived by our minds. So again, your argument is just that you don't think anyone can imagine something they've never seen before. Which imo, is more of a philosophical question that has no correct answer. :D

Ok, sorry to break up the party on colors, but you can't imagine new colors, you can percieve previously imperceptible sprectra, but so far as I know EM only really goes from radio to gama. There are animals that cans see from infrared to ultraviolet, but that is the full range perceptible by any known organic being. It takes some prety imaginative science to see all of the EM Spectra, and even then it's only rationalized into our percievable spectrum. There, no such thing as new colors, just ones you haven't seen.

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Originally Posted by Naiya

Creating new colors: Yep, tons! I see them all the time, but I don't exactly create them myself.

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Can you.. describe them please...??

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Originally Posted by warock

Can you.. describe them please...??

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Have you not looked at any of the other post, it would be impossible to correctly describe the new colors to you because you have not experienced them first hand. if he did try it would make it sound like it was just a mix of other colors by comparing it to them then you will go but that just sounds like this and this mixed together.

I realize that visible light occupies such tiny part as far as waves go, there's visible light waves, gamma rays, x-rays, radio waves, micro waves, infrared waves etc. In fact I saw on some show that visble light waves occupy such a tiny part of all the different types of waves that if if were represented by a movie reel of film going from Los Angeles to Alaska, visible light would be one singe frame. THis blew my mind, I don't remember if this was on the Discovery Channel or History Channel but it's pretty amazing.

So yeah I understand if you could see infrared or something else yuo could see new colors. If you could just imagine every human being color blind and there are colors none of us can see and you could get past this you could see new colors. I don't know if I'm making any sense here but whatever. Anyways I understand the arguments for being able to create new colors in an LD but I stand firm that it's impossible. It just is, I believe the other ones are possible like 360 vision although very difficult to achieve. When you wake up you won't be able to recreate this color or remember what it looked like.

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Originally Posted by Naiya

You're still thinking that dreams are perceived by our physical eyes. They aren't. They're perceived by our minds. So again, your argument is just that you don't think anyone can imagine something they've never seen before. Which imo, is more of a philosophical question that has no correct answer. :D

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course I know dreams aren't created through stimuli taken in through our eyes, as our eyes are closed when we sleep :D . The stimuli comes from internal input, I know that (not the mind though, the mind is more of an abstract thing, it's probably better to say that dreams are combination from internal input in the brain). And, I know we can imagine things we haven't seen before, hell right now I'm imagining a giant tree where the roots are made of human arms and the leaves are long spiky things. But even that is a combination of things that already exist. Forms and objects that exist in our perception of the universe. We can't actually imagine or dream up new colors (and remember, a new color means just that you're perceving out side the visual spectrum, so into UV, x-ray or whatever) because we don't have the capabilities to perceive them. I just don't know how to explain this any better. You can "feel" like you see them, just like when you wake up from a dream and "felt" like you heard the most beautiful music in the world but can't quite remember what it sounded like....

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Originally Posted by spitfire riggz

im tellling you, creating a new color is impossible. i dont know how naiya did it "thousands of times" i wanna know what colors she invented

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Dude! We know that's what you're telling us. It's the fourth time you say that. We get it. You're in a cell that you've created for yourself; we, on the other hand, are either gullible fools or liars. But these opinions don't really add much to the thread. And no one can describe the colors to you. If you're not even open to the possibility that seeing/experiencing new colors is possible, why bother asking someone to describe the ones he or she has seen?

Whatever... It's just that sometimes you just have to go with the flow, you know. Stab logic in the back, swallow your pride and try to create a new color in your next LD. :) I think that would be the best thing to do because this discussion, while interesting and even rewarding at times, won't uncover the truth. It can inspire, though. So why not let yourself be inspired? ;) Is it the fear of appearing foolish, that if you believe in something that doesn't have the stilt of science under it, you'll fall flat to the ground? Because these fears are very common. I'm a living example, actually. I'm often afraid of leaving a bad or a silly impression to someone. I tend to choose my words very carefully, I almost triple check my posts etc. :D But it's very grueling, you know. Sometimes you have to do something that's not normal, take a leap of faith, even if it means falling into mud, because that's how we learn and develop. :)

Also, Naiya - a refreshing post :) I was just about to write that this topic is starving for female attention. :P Not that I want to make some sort of a "manly VS womanly" thing out of all this. :D

But yeah, it's a question of perception. I mean - if you look at the world through orange sunglasses, for example, is the world really orange? No. It only seems to be. So take the glasses off. There... Everything is colorful again, the world isn't shades of orange any longer. So is the world really colorful? No. Once again - it only seems to be. Why? Because light passes through space and time, so to speak, it bounces off things, passes through different layers of air and different layers of our eyes (through the cornea, through the iris etc.). And finally our brain interprets all this and that becomes our perception of "how things really are". And well... in a sense, that's how they really are, at least for you or for me or for Naiya... But it doesn't really end there, now does it? You have got to ask: is my perception the only possible one? Can I alter my own perception of things? Can I alter how my brain translates the environment surrounding me? Can I learn or experience new ways of translating things? Etc.

I mean - why even think that some bird, for example, can't see colors that would be new for us? Even if you say that there are these primary building blocks which always remain the same, that there are only some certain wavelengths out there. So what!? To "compensate" this, there are uncountable different interpretations of these wavelengths out there. If you so badly want to believe that even in your dreams you can't choose between different interpretations, then do so, no one can stop you, but you'll probably miss out on much.

The fabric of our Universe is very versatile. Experiment a little.