My First Attempt At Lucidity... Problems. Insight?

[Cairus]

This girl I know commented a few months back on how every time I saw her, I'd tell her about the dream I'd had the night before. She mentioned my 'dream recall' was good and I should try to achieve lucidity. I kind of wrote her off, figuring it would take a lot of work. She mentioned it several times. Last night I got around to reading the pages on this site, mostly talking on and on about HOW to achieve lucidity, how hard it is and practicing dream recall and setting alarms and blah it did in fact seem like a lot of work... When I went to sleep that night I said F it I'll just try and see what happens. Here's what happened. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Started with me standing in darkness. (After whole ordeal had ended, I realized each time I'd went to sleep it began this way. A spinning sensation, which I later determined was my eyes rolling around, darkness, and then color, sound, and other details, in no specific order, slowly coming into focus, painting across the blackness.) As the dream 'began', I was standing in darkness. The first detail that bled in was the sound of someone talking. I felt inexplicably inclined to ignore it and allow the rest of the dream to form. But then I stopped and said, 'wait a minute. How often do I hear strange garbling voices in the darkness and ignore them? Am I dreaming already...?' So I decided to try to find out what the voice was saying. I focused on it, and realized it was saying INANE things that made NO SENSE. Like, 'Blue ducks vomit shoes on wednesday, as funerals squawk hairily in a timely manner.' I realized this made no sense, I was in fact, dreaming. I became lucid. I was amazed at how real the voice sounded. I wasn't hearing myself just thinking- I was actually hearing someone talking! The excitement of realizing I was lucid and the realness of it woke me up. So I tried again. Went back to sleep. Spinning sensation, darkness. As soon as I'd felt the uncontrollable spinning sensation, I knew I was entering a dream state, so I actually started out lucid by focusing on that. Wondered where the voice was, focused on getting it to return, and heard it talking again. Staying focused on how nonsensical the voice was helped me to retain lucidity. I just stood there, listening to it, knowing I was lucid. Then I decided, 'if I'm lucid, then I should be able to control what the voice is saying. I want the voice to tell me I'm cool!' ...And then the voice actually DID. It switched from nonsense to saying, 'Alex, you are super awesome! You are so special and amazing and cool, aw man, you're great! You rock!' and stuff. I was so amazed it was doing what I wanted it to, that I woke up again. So I had to go back to sleep. Again. Spinning sensation, darkness. Once again I started out lucid. This time no voice, images started forming around me instead. I became frustrated, because I wanted to go through the logical progression, you know? Return to the dream I was having before, with the voice, and go from there. But a different dream was forming, and that rubbed me the wrong way. So as the new dream was forming, I started exerting all of this force trying to change the dream back to the previous one so I could pick up where I left off. The force I exerted trying to control and erase the forming dream made caused me to awaken again. So yet again, I had to focus on going back to sleep. Spinning sensation, darkness. Once again, I start out lucid.Colors start popping up... I figured to myself, 'okay, when I try to force the dream back to the previous one, I lose it and wake up. Fine. Screw going back, damnit. Take me to my living room!' The previously forming dream paused and blurred, everything became blurry, and when it came back into focus, I was standing in my living room just like I'd demanded! I looked down and saw my body, more or less how it looks In Real Life, except more masculine. (I'm a transguy. I'm almost always male bodied in my dreams. And in dreams where I'm not, my build/voice are more masculine. I feel this is 'the real me'.) I was wearing the same homey boxers and wifebeater type getup I usually wear around the house. The livingroom looked exactly how it actually does. It was pretty unspectacular. So I said out loud after examining my dress, 'What the hell is this? If this is a dream, I want some sweet digs!' I was focusing on looking at my hands,forearms as I said this, holding my hands out in front of me. I concentrated on them for a moment, and they became blurry. When the focus sharpened back onto them, I was wearing Altair's armor on them. (That's Altair from Assassins Creed. http://www.gamerdna.com/uimage/ogQue...air_1_-jpg.jpg) The leather and steel vambraces were exquisite. I had not requested Altair's armor specifically, as evident from what I said ('some sweet digs'??, lol!) so I was kind of taken aback, both by the vambraces and at having such a vague request obeyed. Again I became excited and woke up. Needless to say, this is more waking up/going back to sleep than I'm used to, and I found it kind of exhausting. I decided to give up on it and just go to sleep 'normal' and sort it all out later. So yeah. Anyone will similar problems/insight?? It seems I'm able to achieve lucidity pretty easily from the start, but where/what methods to employ from there to tackle these problems? This has been rather frustrating, but the experience was rewarding enough that I'd like to try some more. If you have any advice, I'd love to hear it. In the meantime I'll be reading/lurking other threads to try to gain some insight... Thanks!

[Darkmatters]

Damn! Wish I had your problems!!! Went lucid 4 times on your first night trying? And all of them WILDs??!!! Jeeze... and you call this a problem!! Yeah, you don't really want to try to force a dream... the thing to do is to first let it form how it will, and then use a technique to switch to a different dream - one of your own devising. Take a look at the tutorials page - read up on some of the dream control methods. Sounds like yer a damn natural!!

[Cairus]

That's very encouraging, DM! Upon reading your post I had no idea what a 'WILD' was, but thanks for pointing me in the tutorials direction, I found it in there. I'm kind of confused by the immense detail in all of this... It's kind of hard to wrap my head around. (There wasn't really much refinement/technical understanding in the how/why when I did it. :/) According to the tutorial, a 'WILD' can only occur 'in the middle of the night' or during a nap...? I don't get it. When I'd gone to sleep it was to actually sleep. I mean, I'd been up for a little over 24 hours, (I'm usually a night owl and go to bed when I can't comfortably keep my eyes open any longer during the day time.) so it wasn't a nap or waking up in the middle of the night. Does that mean it was actually something else?? And I'm kind of confused as to how you folks are determining when you're having an REM cycle. How do you predict when it will happen? Also, I remember reading on the main site that REM cycles occur many times in one night, (like five times?) the first one starting off early on but not lasting very long, happening relatively shortly after sleep is initiated; I think this may be the time during which I kept having these experiences, as when I repeatedly woke up from them hours had not passed. Could it be I wasn't deeply enough into sleep to remain asleep? I know that each time I entered a dreaming state, I felt my eyes rolling around, which I suspect is what caused the 'spinning sensation' that always happened prior to entering a dream state. It isn't the lucidity that's a problem (well, it might be, since I don't know if it'll be as easy when I try again next! It could have been a bizarre coincedence/luck! Hope not!) it's *staying asleep* once I'm lucid while actually trying to do stuff with the lucidity. Will read more. (Gosh, there's so very much to read! Ackk.) Thank you for your kind words, I'll be reading the rest of the methods in case I can't do the same way I did last night for some reason.

[Darkmatters]

Yeah I know... there's a lot to read up on!! I'd say just read through the tutorials over the next few days... pay particular attention to Hypnagogic Hallucinations and Sleep Paralysis - these will help explain what was happening to you last night. Though I guess they were also covered in the WILD tutorial. Um - let's see... ok, it's possible to WILD when you first go to bed... especially if you didn't sleep well the night before. If you don't get much REM sleep one night then your body/ mind whatever will try to make up for it the next - it's called REM rebound. Good stuff! Generally speaking the 1st REM period is supposed to start 90 minutes after you fall asleep, and like you said it's pretty short - maybe 5 or ten minutes? They then follow every 90 minutes, each one being a bit longer. Some people say they definitely dream immediately after falling asleep though, so the dream science stuff might not be written in stone. As for waking up each time so fast... it happens a lot in the beginning.. often just from the excitement of being lucid. Excitement will wake you up. As you get more used to it you;ll be able to remain in the dreams longer. Also, there are techniques to help stabilize a dream once you're lucid. Check for stabilization tutorials - here's a freebie: Try rubbing your hands together or feeling surfaces around you. Don't look too long or too hard at any one thing... that can cause the dream to destabilize. Use your dream senses... feel as I suggested, that' probably the best one for stabilization since there isn't always something to hear or smell or taste. Using the sensation of touch in the dream helps keep it stable. It's a good idea to stabilize the dream occasionally. Also, Atkins posted a thread last night about making the dream last a long time... click on Quick Links in the blue bar across the top of the page and then on Today's Posts. It should be on the first few pages. Aw hell, it might have dropped off quite a few pages by now - I don't have the link on hand for it. If I can find it Ill post a link here. Some great techniques in there. Ok here it is: http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=94752 That should be enough reading material for a while!

[Cairus]

Ahhh, REM rebound! Interesting concept. The last time I'd slept prior to the experience contained above was only about... Checked my alarms, an hour and 45 minutes. Hm... Yes, I'm not so sure dreaming can only occur after 90 minutes of sleep; I've seen other people fall asleep and wake up soon afterwards(20 minutes?) remembering an odd dream, or even talking in their sleep in response to a dream very shortly after retiring. AH http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=67910 It states somewhere in this thread that one not need be in the REM stage to dream, that dreaming is quite possible in other stages of sleep. And YES, the entries on hypnagogic hallucinations were VERY useful to me: I've had a history of insomnia, consequentially I've had a lot of experience laying around *trying* to fall asleep. The swirly/starry state happens easily because of how tired I am, and I spent some time years back being confounded as to how to get further than that and actually sleep. When I successfully slept I noticed the 'brainvomit/footprint' stage (random fragmented concepts flashing and blinking and words and talking that make little sense yet seem 'familiar' and 'correct') would happen prior to my lights going out- and associated that with the ultimate goal of sleeping, period, so I focused on trying to induce that state purposely because I knew it would give way to sleep. (The starry/swirly part is closer to waking for me, not as deep.) So what I'd do is this: Once I'd achieved the swirly/starry part I'd purposely try to think in a nonlinear conceptual way that made no sense. I discovered that if I *purposely* brainvomit after entering the hypnagogic 'plasma' state, I mean purposely think in GIBBERISH, somehow it sparks involuntary continuation of it. It worked one time and I started doing it whenever possible until it just became a habit if I was having trouble sleeping- thinking in gibberish on purpose leads to thinking in gibberish involuntarily, giving way to flashes of random bizarre stuff. The involuntary fragmented brainslurry goes on for a while, and once I got that ball rolling my modus operandi was to relinquish awareness and revel in sleep. So basically, 'last night' instead of just happily agreeing to sleep I put effort into staying aware to see what happens beyond that point, and from what I've read here, what I was experiencing makes perfect sense, the personal progression being this: stars/swirls, voluntary conceptual/fragmented thinking, gives way to footprints(this part lasts a bit and I usually feel my eyes roll back involuntarily), stars and footprints give way to darkness/nothingness(this is where I would usually relinquish awareness), hypnagogic objects, objects give way to partial scenes, partial scenes become full scenes, DREAM. So I've actually been unraveling the first couple steps to this routinely for years, I just didn't realize it had anything to do with LDs, had no idea of the terminology for it either. ('That thing I do when I'm trying to fall asleep but can't.') OMG. I KNOW WHAT WOKE ME UP when I tried to force the dream to stop! It's the same thing that always wakes me up from the footprint hypnagogic state! Sometimes I would sabotage the progress of falling asleep because when I felt my eyes roll back of their own accord, I would become VERY aware of it because it meant I was succeeding in falling asleep, and being aware of my eyes rolling would cause me to move them intentional, which would screw them up from their natural progression of being uncontrolled and I would be HURLED back out of the footprint stage into wakefulness and have to start over again. I always feel my eyes move a bit as I get deeper toward sleep with the footprint stage, and when attempting to remain aware beyond that to LD, I felt my eyes start to wig out once more, *every time* the dreams were coalescing; (the 'spinning' sensation) when the dream I wasn't happy with was beginning to form, my eyes were moving around, and I started trying to exert force to keep that dream from manifesting because I wanted a different one- in doing so I STOPPED MY EYES from moving, exerting control over my eyeballs from within the dream, which shoved me out of it into being awake again! I've read most of the tutorial section now and the link you sent me, the advice is indispensable. What I need to do is: when the dream is forming, let it, because my eyes are moving around a lot right then, and if I try to sto pthe dream from being born, I'll end up messing with my eyes which will eject me from sleep. Let the dream form, *then* employ the methods described to remain lucid within it, and *then* try to change/manipulate it. And the problem of excitement will solve itself over time. Good!! THANK YOU for all of your help. (If I succeed, do I just update by adding another reply to my own thread, or do I need to make a seperate thread?) Apologies for this post being so very long, I'm very very tired and which leads to being verbose and rambly. TO BED! I am going to go to sleep now and try again! <333

[Darkmatters]

Awesome!! Damn, you pick this stuff up fast!! Well, I guess it helps like you said that you've actually been doing it for years unintentionally... I'm not sure if Jeff's WILD tut is included in the tutorials section? If not you definitely want to read that one. Let me dig it up: How to Trick Your Body Into Falling Asleep (While Keeping Your Mind Awake) He covers some great stuff that might help get you through it. It's awesome to see somebody wrestling with this stuff and doing so well with it!