Thread: Epistemology

Bah, it's all too confusing for me.

How do I know whats the truth? , Well I tell you the truth, the truth is what you make of it. Find your own truth. Or.. "the truth is out there"..in yourself. Think about that, it might mean something else for every other person..but I love vague things sometimes..^_^

science is more of a truth than anything else right now. but it can't be said that it's the total truth, more like the logical truth.

Originally posted by adidas
science is more of a truth than anything else right now. but it can't be said that it's the total truth, more like the logical truth.

I agree with this statement to an extent. I would change the word "logical" to "current", though. The truths known one hundred years ago were far different than the truths known now. There was a time when people took as truth that the world was flat.

Originally posted by A Lost Soul+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(A Lost Soul)</div>

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science is more of a truth than anything else right now. but it can't be said that it's the total truth, more like the logical truth.

I agree with this statement to an extent. I would change the word \"logical\" to \"current\", though. The truths known one hundred years ago were far different than the truths known now. There was a time when people took as truth that the world was flat.[/b]

Nice comparison

the truth is known as we interpret it. We set ideas to measure truths. Science is using these ideas to measure how true, physically, something is. Truth of mind is something much more complex.

Originally posted by A Lost Soul+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(A Lost Soul)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-adidas

science is more of a truth than anything else right now. but it can't be said that it's the total truth, more like the logical truth.

I agree with this statement to an extent. I would change the word \"logical\" to \"current\", though. The truths known one hundred years ago were far different than the truths known now. There was a time when people took as truth that the world was flat.[/b]

that's kind of what i meant in saying logical. it was logical back in the old days to say the earth was flat because the bible alluded to it, and i think they had different theories of star and planet systems as well that "supported" their theory. today you can safely say the earth is round, is this a truth? that's a very vague question. maybe we can perceive it as being round, maybe there's another dimension that we aren't advanced enough to see. i don't know, but as of now science is the truest thing going.

Exactly! I think it would be interesting to know what the truth will be in, say, ten or twenty years.

When you apply science to the dream world and spirituality you get the same effect... Truth keeps resolving itself, something you once thought was true becaomes false and something that is closer to whatever the actual truth is formed.

it is not stagnated, it grows, I think this is why I like it so much.

oops! I just realized that I spelled epistemology wrong, sorry

It is hard to say reality is changing as you say. If you were to combine vinegar and baking soda 500 years ago you would have the same chemcial reaction as today.The accepted truth in that age's society were different because the simple minds could accept more obscure explanations. They only thought that because most of society and royalty believed it and no one wanted to voice out another thought.

i think i answered this question pretty well with the 'prove to seeker you exist' post...i dont feel like linking it or anything, but if you feel like digging it up, thats my answer to this post as well

Originally posted by Philosophacles
It is hard to say reality is changing as you say. If you were to combine vinegar and baking soda 500 years ago you would have the same chemcial reaction as today.The accepted truth in that age's society were different because the simple minds could accept more obscure explanations. They only thought that because most of society and royalty believed it and no one wanted to voice out another thought.

nothing is really changing, its how we perceive things, that's changing. we're "growing" or "learning from our mistakes." same as our ancestors 500 years ago. its a never ending cycle, there will always be new frontiers that we know nothing about but theorize about.

It is my opinion, that truth is not simply in the way you percieve things. Truth does indeed exist. Perception is more of a filter, like a magnifying glass or something. It BENDS the truth so it seems distorted. The thing of it is (and of course this is just me) is that humans are not able to see the truth. Rather NOTHING is able to SEE the truth because in SEEING the truth you are polluting it with bias and simple thought. No I am not religious, not at all.

Im not sure there is truth at all.

First of all, scientifically speaking, we are stil not sure how the universe works. Einsteins theory of relativity conflicts with itself on a subatomic level. And einsteins relativity is the basis of most of our laws of physics today.

But ask any scientist about their findings, like that gravity is an acceleration on 9.8 meters^2 a second, and they will be sure of it. positive. Ask any top scientist 2 millenium ago if the earth is flat and they wil say "of course, positively".

Science changes things, the way people are sure of things, but if history is correct, we keep learning completely new things, so nothing can be completely true.


Moreover, in a more non scientific way...
I believe almost all fo what we know come from our senses. We smell, see touch, feel and hear the world around us, and this creates a pattern of the world, and its truth in our minds. Hardly any of our knowledge comes from intuition. Maybe there is some truth in instincts, because those are there whether we like it or not (hunger, sex).

So if what we perceive is truth, then truth is simply brain waves, and electric currents. Electric currents can be simulated, and it is completely possible that we are in some sort of matrix.

I think there is no truth. truth is an illision that satisfies our minds and brings us peace. We would be a mess if we questioned absolutely everything all the time, so truth is a good illusion.

Also, try to think of something that you know is true.

Then think of an exception to this rule.

So, there is no truth, it is a logical fallacy. Exceptions, no matter how absurd, are possible. And as someone said, in a world of so many possibilities and incidents, improbobilities become the probable.

I think science gives us the truth that works best now....there is no ultimate truth because it's a matter of perception, Science just inferences through abservation, and we all observe things differently

I agree with Mercubio, truth is a filter.

Science, I think, has discovered very little that wasn't already said hundreds, thousands, and even hundreds of thousands of years ago.

Science is simply the newest TRANSLATION. The workings of this earth and the universe havve long been known and explored by many many cultures that 'science' deemed "primitive." Even though these primitives kept the world alive and growing for millions of years without trying and we may not last another ten.

Science is not truth. Earth is truth. Deep ecology is truth.

And it is constantly nameless. The moment you try to define it, it slips from your grasp, because to properly define something, you must name all the things connected to that thing, in turn. Sorta like Entish, in LotR, how the trees take days to have conversations.

The fundemental problem with western 'science' is that it's based on Platonic philosophy, which is self defining. Science that is more truthful is that which is combined with ALL studies at once.

A proper team of scientists would include everything, every study, all working together. Ecology and anthropology and physics and chemists and necromancers and druids and on and on.

Think democratic perspective and science without laboratories, all field work, because, lets be honest, nothing is real about an artificial 'controlled' environment sterile of all the chaos that REALLY exists ALLL the time here on earth.

Truth is everything in contrast to nothing. Tao and Te.

There is an Ultimate Truth.

And we are All Wrong.

There is Only One Truth.

As I said in the 'Favorite Quotes' thread...

"Nothing is true. All is permitted."
-Last words of Hassan i Sabbah X

Wow. I think that's the first time I found myself actually agreeing (mostly) with you, Blulanou!

Anyway, I also agree with Mercubio...I think
You're taking an epistemology class, Will.i.am?

To me, the form of logic implies that "truth" is abslolute. To say science produces/enables us to perceive, etc. truth (albeit temporary truth) is kind of a contradiction... or maybe a paradoxical convenience. We can only reach a "knowledge" of truth by faith. . Otherwise, I think the only way we can "know" is through our senses.... interesting subject

The truth is what you perceive as the truth. If your conciousness is absolutely convinced it is truth, it is. (Take your prophets for example.)

2+2=4

Is this true? yep. (also can be perceived as "yes" or "yeah" or "mmmHmm")
Is there any other way to perceive it? ...no.

2+2 will ALWAYS be 4.

ERGO absolute truth exists...

Deception and delusion exist.
...This also is a true statement.

If I "perceived" your statement as false... would that be okay with you or do you think what you stated above is absolutely true?

*Resurrects dead thread*

Because I have seen this philosophy brought up in other threads, and discussed it with some off the boards, I decided to type up a brief little history on epistemology and what not.

Epistemology is the philosophical study of the possibility and extent of human knowledge, and of it sorigins (sense data, reason) and development (ideas, concepts, judgments, and so on). The materialist theory of knowledge takes the position that a world of objects, things, bodies, exists external to and independent of us, that our sensations represent the action of the outside world on our sense organs.

Idealistic philosophy asserts either that our knowledge has its source in objectively existing ideas (Plato, Hegel - objective idealism) or that it coincides with existence itself, which is thus regarded as exclusively mental, internal to mind (the subject idealism of Berklet and the Machians) or in principle denies the possibility of true knowledge of reality (the skepticism and agnosticism of Hume and Kant).

In the last analysis, the epistemology of idealism is invoked in order to set certain boundaries and limits to human knowledge. Dialetical materiliasm opposes all hypotheses which negate science and its potentialities.

Epistemology can easily be associated with child development in relation to the later adult years of each individual and how they interact with society. We learn our social ethics and the standards of the world through our parents teachings and the examples they assert for us. In order to ascertain how to survive in this world, we idolise and learn from our parents as they are our teachers in life.

Incorporating this theory into how we interact with society, it can than be said that we all mimic the way our parents acted during our childhood with other individuals in society in order to find our cliche within the world. This creates the thoughts such as, "I am turning into my mother/father...".

Hope I've been thought-provoking.

Note: Is it just me or do those two people up there have the biggest names on the board?

Originally posted by O'nus

Note: *Is it just me or do those two people up there have the biggest names on the board?

What you mean?

Yeah, that was thought provoking. I love the topic of epistemology... truly interesting....

I have yet to hear a subjectivist's (someone who believes that "truth is subjective") reply to the absolutism of mathematics though. To me, the absolutism and purity of math only points to the existence of Truth on an absolute scale...

I'm not saying that we can "know" the absolute truth in its entirety or fullness, but that it does exist.